Kinda going over old ground and away from the original point but not really a surprise.
Stalkers are shunned because their initial flaws still havn't been fixed - a placate thats not 100% reliable; an inherient that isn't good; powersets that near cripple player choice to ensure 'typical' PvE ability; player choices for PvP that drive down their value even further in PvE teams. Not to leave out a great deal of players playing Stalkers still to this day think its all about the AS and struggle todo more.
I believe each AT can be played in a variety of ways, the Stalker included and while the Dominator isn't the shunned AT it once was, the Stalker is because its received one rather underwhelming buff to Hide and its flaws and bugs still need addressed. Once thats done, hopefully the Stalker will be welcomed more often by more people.
In the mean time, I'll continue to play my favourite PvE AT and look forward to my fifth level fifty Stalker 
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Kinda going over old ground and away from the original point but not really a surprise.
Stalkers are shunned because their initial flaws still havn't been fixed - a placate thats not 100% reliable; an inherient that isn't good; powersets that near cripple player choice to ensure 'typical' PvE ability; player choices for PvP that drive down their value even further in PvE teams. Not to leave out a great deal of players playing Stalkers still to this day think its all about the AS and struggle todo more.
I believe each AT can be played in a variety of ways, the Stalker included and while the Dominator isn't the shunned AT it once was, the Stalker is because its received one rather underwhelming buff to Hide and its flaws and bugs still need addressed. Once thats done, hopefully the Stalker will be welcomed more often by more people.
In the mean time, I'll continue to play my favourite PvE AT and look forward to my fifth level fifty Stalker
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Fixing those bugs wont help much. AVs aside, in Big team PvE this game is all about AoEs which are mathematically far far superior to STs.
Stalkers have the least amount of AoE powers of practically any AT out there.
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Kinda going over old ground and away from the original point but not really a surprise.
Stalkers are shunned because their initial flaws still havn't been fixed - a placate thats not 100% reliable; an inherient that isn't good; powersets that near cripple player choice to ensure 'typical' PvE ability; player choices for PvP that drive down their value even further in PvE teams. Not to leave out a great deal of players playing Stalkers still to this day think its all about the AS and struggle todo more.
I believe each AT can be played in a variety of ways, the Stalker included and while the Dominator isn't the shunned AT it once was, the Stalker is because its received one rather underwhelming buff to Hide and its flaws and bugs still need addressed. Once thats done, hopefully the Stalker will be welcomed more often by more people.
In the mean time, I'll continue to play my favourite PvE AT and look forward to my fifth level fifty Stalker
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Fixing those bugs wont help much. AVs aside, in Big team PvE this game is all about AoEs which are mathematically far far superior to STs.
Stalkers have the least amount of AoE powers of practically any AT out there.
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/disagree
IMO its about kills/Pm
i agree MOST if not all others (naa not all ...doms AoE is poor) do this best with AoE but the recharge and amount of damage given out by stalkers ST is better than all others. And seems ST suffer less penalties (AoE modifiers and acc) ST are much more reliable
*Sigh*
A mass of AoE isn't going todo jack squat to the Gunslinger boss thats owning the team with its over kill acc, or the sapper who just drained your aggro holder and now the corrs are under threat because they have been stunned to hell and back 
Examples above and many others we have all seen and done - the game isn't 'just' AoE = win and theres times when another AT pulls the team out of the fire when the brute has died in seconds. The Stalker isn't often that one because he wasn't invited to begin with. I believe that simply reducing the time it takes to regain Hide status from 10 seconds to 5 is enough to ramp up the damage without it being potentially imbalanced in PvE.Aside from Footstomp and KO Blow, I personally feel the brute is overrated for damage dealing in large teams, particulary if its loaded with other brutes stealing fury from each other.
Fighting AV's is a game wide problem for me and I wish it were more than simply 'spam hold & debuffs' at it but thats another topic 
Edit: Essentially if Im on a team with a decent brute (rare on both accounts) then he's helping to keep me alive but I'm also keeping him upright by taking out whatever his set is weakest to. If theres no brute (rare) and its corr heavy then I'm aiming for the mezzers first and taking it from there. I'm _supporting_ the front line fighters like a dominator does with its secondary along with the corrs primary. It matters not that I'm doing 30 damage to 8 critters every ten seconds imho more that I'm taking out that critter than can kill you inside 10 seconds
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*Sigh*
A mass of AoE isn't going todo jack squat to the Gunslinger boss thats owning the team with its over kill acc, or the sapper who just drained your aggro holder and now the corrs are under threat because they have been stunned to hell and back Examples above and many others we have all seen and done - the game isn't 'just' AoE = win and theres times when another AT pulls the team out of the fire when the brute has died in seconds. The Stalker isn't often that one because he wasn't invited to begin with. I believe that simply reducing the time it takes to regain Hide status from 10 seconds to 5 is enough to ramp up the damage without it being potentially imbalanced in PvE.Aside from Footstomp and KO Blow, I personally feel the brute is overrated for damage dealing in large teams, particulary if its loaded with other brutes stealing fury from each other.
Fighting AV's is a game wide problem for me and I wish it were more than simply 'spam hold & debuffs' at it but thats another topic
Edit: Essentially if Im on a team with a decent brute (rare on both accounts) then he's helping to keep me alive but I'm also keeping him upright by taking out whatever his set is weakest to. If theres no brute (rare) and its corr heavy then I'm aiming for the mezzers first and taking it from there. I'm _supporting_ the front line fighters like a dominator does with its secondary along with the corrs primary. It matters not that I'm doing 30 damage to 8 critters every ten seconds imho more that I'm taking out that critter than can kill you inside 10 seconds
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couldent have said it better myself :PP
Hmmm, I think some facts got a little bit confused here.
Stalkers are not the kings of damage dealing by any means in any team that has been put together with a little bit of thought. Concerning brutes competing for fury I have a simple rule for my teams: maximum of one brute per four team members (or per three members if there are special synergetic effects to consider). That way a brute (if he is not all too mis-built or badly played) has a decent amount of fury to begin with and a nice amount of potential buffers behind him. Actually, it happens quite often in these teams that a brute hits the 850%(!) damage cap which results in a steady damage output that a stalker - even given the same amount of buffs - can not compete with. (At the damage cap we are talking about a difference of roundabout 40% in favour of the brute, not even counting the greater AoEness of brutes.) In a good team relentless spawns - including bosses - fall in a matter of seconds. (I just love this steamrolling playstyle. 
) Of course, this impressive efficiency decreases in a bad team, but I think there is no argument that any AT can shine when compared to a bunch of fools. Yes, I have seen my share of brutes who hesitate long enough to let their fury bars fall after each spawn...
However, in my experience a well played stalker is an asset. The problem is that it's just as hard to find such a well played stalker (as most stalkers looking for teams seem to be of the other kind ) as it is for the average player to actually recognise what the stalker contributes (because e.g. the mezzes that would have otherwise hit him just don't happen and more often than not it's easier to spot something that happens than something that does not).
In the end it all comes down to what other players can see:
It's easy to see the merits of a brute wading through hordes of mobs, felling enemies left and right.
It's easy to see the merits of a corruptor with buff icons appearing next to everybody's name and fireballs flying.
It's easy to see the merits of a dominator when the enemies are trembling in fear or something like that (and things like the Psychic Shockwave are hard to miss either).
It's easy to see the merits of a MM when his pets are all over the place.
It's hard to see the merits of a stalker when he has just taken out a big threat that would have been seen. Sometimes the only ones noticing it are the ones who have played stalkers themselves or are very experienced in general.
If it has eyes, you can blind it, if it has blood, you can make it bleed, if it has a mouth, you can make it scream.
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*Sigh*
A mass of AoE isn't going todo jack squat to the Gunslinger boss thats owning the team with its over kill acc, or the sapper who just drained your aggro holder and now the corrs are under threat because they have been stunned to hell and back Examples above and many others we have all seen and done - the game isn't 'just' AoE = win and theres times when another AT pulls the team out of the fire when the brute has died in seconds. The Stalker isn't often that one because he wasn't invited to begin with. I believe that simply reducing the time it takes to regain Hide status from 10 seconds to 5 is enough to ramp up the damage without it being potentially imbalanced in PvE.Aside from Footstomp and KO Blow, I personally feel the brute is overrated for damage dealing in large teams, particulary if its loaded with other brutes stealing fury from each other.
Fighting AV's is a game wide problem for me and I wish it were more than simply 'spam hold & debuffs' at it but thats another topic
Edit: Essentially if Im on a team with a decent brute (rare on both accounts) then he's helping to keep me alive but I'm also keeping him upright by taking out whatever his set is weakest to. If theres no brute (rare) and its corr heavy then I'm aiming for the mezzers first and taking it from there. I'm _supporting_ the front line fighters like a dominator does with its secondary along with the corrs primary. It matters not that I'm doing 30 damage to 8 critters every ten seconds imho more that I'm taking out that critter than can kill you inside 10 seconds
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Of course, if a team *only* has AoE attacks, that would be true. But that is actually impossible. I imagibe there is a ratio of AoE:ST is high enough it becomes ineficcient, but I have yet to reach it.
Talk of Gunslingers and Sappers... so what? A ST hold will put one out of the action if its a Lt or Minion. If its a boss, it will need too, and one AS wont take it out. And by the time anyones facing Malta, they will normally have at least one ST mez effect.
To stalkers who say "I can take out an annoying [whatever]" FAST. I say so can all my other toons... take it out of action anyway. AND i'm destroying the rest of the mob too.
I was in an all corruptor team a month or two ago, when we all took as many AOE powers from AOE heavy sets as we could. The rate we were blistering through enemies was astounding, and no, the boss fell at the same time as everyone else, because we used all our ST powers on him. A stalker would be unlikely to even reach melee in time to attack on that group (heck, we sometimes couldnt fire off my than a fireball ourselves), much less go through the rigmarole of hide/AS.
This *was* an extreme case, but it was a useful experiment, showing that providing people ST the boss, there isnt reallly a weay to get too much AoE.
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A mass of AoE isn't going todo jack squat to the Gunslinger boss thats owning the team with its over kill acc, or the sapper who just drained your aggro holder and now the corrs are under threat because they have been stunned to hell and back
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And how many villain missions do you actually encounter Malta? About 1 story arc, pus level 40+ newspaper missions! Any team that is mostly interested in XP can simply avoid them.
And any sapper is dead meat for a electrc or energy brute, or any corruptor or dominator with a snipe or hold.
As for Gunslingers? If you think they are difficult, it's probably because you are playing a stalker!
AV fights? AS simply does not do enough damage to do more than scratch an AV, so it's left to the ATs with high sustained damage to take them down, while the stalker lies faceplanted on the floor or cowers in a corner.
As for AOE vs single target: solo, or on small teams you are fighting small spawns, where single target damage is useful. On a large team, you are fighting large spawns, where any amount of single target damage is insignificant compared to aoes.
I really should do something about this signature.
So what we really need is the AS improvements mentioned in another section (AS scales up for AV's etc (1 shot AV ftw )) and lets throw in an AoE AS - that would be SO funny!!! lol
Golden-Phoenix - Lvl 50 Fire/Fire Tank
Oodja Nikabolokov - Lvl 50 SS/WP Brute
Baby-Phoenix - Lvl 50 Peacebringer
How much wood would a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could Chuck Norris?
An interesting first topic for me to post in, our villain group has just rolled a superteam of all-ninjitsu stalkers and we're finding out how to play them - shall we say - the hard way.
I definitely agree that the hiding downtime should be reduced, not only does it allow for a higher rate of damage but the way it stands right now is, you're forced to play one of two ways...
1) Hit and run - all very well but no real use in a decent team as the mob will be mostly gone by the time you can use AS again. Besides which, having to wait while you're watching the rest of the team take everyone down is just BORING.
2) Wade in like a scrapper - after one AS strike, use your lesser attacks. Not only does this not feel like playing as a stalker, it's far less effective than a melee class should be and it shows.
Either way, a stalker's weaknesses are brought to bear in a well balanced team as it's obvious they're not really having much effect. As already stated, they're not that effective as boss hunters as they can't one-shot them (and rightly so, I feel, that'd be TOO powerful) and they don't have the aoe to efficiently deal with minions, so that reduces them to lieutenant hunters. Again, far too specialised for your average team.
Our team, it's a different matter entirely... 8 AS's all at once is a great sight and if you go for minions first, leaves only a small handful standing for everyone to gang up on. Very swift, very brutal, and very effective.
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"Hard pressed on my right. My centre is yielding. Impossible to manoeuvre. Situation excellent. I am attacking." - General Ferdinand Foch
Ahh yet another thread like this, not having browsed this section for a while, ive not missed them.
I rarely play my stalker any more, he mostly gets used for 3rd respec speed runs, but then, when you have a lvl 50 perma-dom, why play something else?
As for teaming. In large teams, I tend to feel useless, especially on the steamroller type teams you usually get. On teams that struggle a bit, or are facing white/yellow stuff, I can pretty much solo a small team spawn without much effort, and sometimes for bigger teams depending on enemy type. Well played PvE stalkers are few and far between, and many stalkers suffer from the vicious cycle mentioned above. Personally, as a stalker, I favour small teams, 4 or 5, sometimes 6. with 8 you get lost in the carnage and then feel inadequate.
Its been a while since ive plugged my own guide, but will do so again here, check out the Tao in my sig.
To me a see stalkers as I see scrappers. There are things that do more damage and survive longer in teams than them, but if the person playing it knows what they are doing, and you know and like them, they are worth far more than a fully purple'd out blaster you dont like, and quite often, that stalker/scrapper will give you a nice suprise with something like after a near team wipe, clearing up the mob and passing the wakie to the rezzer (which ive done several times).
So yeh, stalkers, far from the first choice on a team, and quite often the last, but find a good one, and you know you have met a good player.
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well buffed brute does better than a stalker?? but what about a well buffed stalker?
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A buffed brute is far superior to a buffed stalker. The much higher damage and resistance caps ensure that. Plus, the brute can support the team by holding aggro, and has more aoe attacks.
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yea they can take more damage ..but i am not sure on this damage thing... according to mids no brute comes near (not even EM) to EM stalker for Dp/s (Edit infact elec melee comes close... but still only close)
i am not just saying it because i have a EM stalker.. i also have a SS brute and i know what foot stomp is capable of but were as my brute foot stomps and ppl are still alive my stalker will 1 shot alot more (infact really only KO blow 1 shots ... hurl does but thats really quiet slow)
yes a brute can take the damage for longer thus can kill for longer but were talking about stalkers on TEAMS placating and one shotting all over the place stalkers can kill more effectivly than brutes and thus need to servive less
tho i have been made very aware of the face my build EM/Nin is an exception to the rule i am currently in the process of making a new stalker to see what its like
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Tbh it sounds like the brutes you've teamed with/play as are just not very good, especially if you think you can out-kill them (and anything else) in pve. Go watch a ss or elec/fire or a fire/psy dom tbh. I mean yes, EM stalkers have great ST damage and are good boss killers but a good SS takes a bit longer to kill a boss but at the same time kills the whole of the rest of the group. 1 kill vs as many as there are depending on team size. I have an elec/fire brute and an em/wp and I would never farm with the latter lol.
@Rooks
"You should come inside the box... Then you'll know what I mean."
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well buffed brute does better than a stalker?? but what about a well buffed stalker?
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A buffed brute is far superior to a buffed stalker. The much higher damage and resistance caps ensure that. Plus, the brute can support the team by holding aggro, and has more aoe attacks.
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yea they can take more damage ..but i am not sure on this damage thing... according to mids no brute comes near (not even EM) to EM stalker for Dp/s (Edit infact elec melee comes close... but still only close)
i am not just saying it because i have a EM stalker.. i also have a SS brute and i know what foot stomp is capable of but were as my brute foot stomps and ppl are still alive my stalker will 1 shot alot more (infact really only KO blow 1 shots ... hurl does but thats really quiet slow)
yes a brute can take the damage for longer thus can kill for longer but were talking about stalkers on TEAMS placating and one shotting all over the place stalkers can kill more effectivly than brutes and thus need to servive less
tho i have been made very aware of the face my build EM/Nin is an exception to the rule i am currently in the process of making a new stalker to see what its like
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Tbh it sounds like the brutes you've teamed with/play as are just not very good, especially if you think you can out-kill them (and anything else) in pve. Go watch a ss or elec/fire or a fire/psy dom tbh. I mean yes, EM stalkers have great ST damage and are good boss killers but a good SS takes a bit longer to kill a boss but at the same time kills the whole of the rest of the group. 1 kill vs as many as there are depending on team size. I have an elec/fire brute and an em/wp and I would never farm with the latter lol.
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Its quiet true i dont team with brutes very often they suffer from what i like to call PB syndrome (i R brute therefore I R gr8)
i have got an Ice/psi dom so i do know what psi is capable of (tho without the fire imps damage output, i really hate FoTM builds)
tbh i never considered any other ATs when i said that but i would still give any AT a run for there money (when my ET recharges in less than 8 seconds its gunna be hard for anyone really)
i think the same an go to you as what you said to me... perhaps you just havent seen that stalker that has wowed you yet...
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(i R brute therefore I R gr8)
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Which compared to a stalker in a large team situation, is 100% true.
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perhaps you just havent seen that stalker that has wowed you yet...
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This is certainly true. I havn't seen flying pigs either.
I really should do something about this signature.
Its not so much the AT, as the build and sets. My eyes have boggled at a Energy / Energy Brute with no AoE attacks or taunt who didnt cycle his attacks over different targets and pretended to be a team player. Id take something like a Spines stalker over that muppet any day.
But the reality is that Stalkers get very few or no AoE. There isnt any way to compensate for this at all. They will underperform in teams, and quite seriously so, as a consequence - as will any toon with only one, or no, AoE powers.
This is of course assuming equal play skill - but skill only compensates for so much hard maths.
For instance, 8 defenders would tear 8 stalkers to pulp and beyond without a shudder. Simple Maths - they all have AoE buffs, heals, attacks and debuffs, the stalkers dont.
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My eyes have boggled at a Energy / Energy Brute with no AoE attacks or taunt who didnt cycle his attacks over different targets and pretended to be a team player. Id take something like a Spines stalker over that muppet any day.
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Brutes aren't something I play, but I can think of plenty of reasons another player would reach such a build. And unless they were trying to present some pretence of capability in aggro management I'd be reticent to leap to what could be a condascending, blinkered, and way off the mark conclusion about team role and "muppets".
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I can think of plenty of reasons another player would reach such a build.
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Go on then, list them.
I really should do something about this signature.
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I can think of plenty of reasons another player would reach such a build.
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Go on then, list them.
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I can think of a couple... a pure solo toon (boring as hell, but to each their own) couldn't make that much use of end-draining aoe's, but high damage energy attacks, on the other hand...
And then of course there's the age-old "concept character" reason. Absolutely no GAME reason to choose those powers, but that doesn't mean there isn't another reason.
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"Hard pressed on my right. My centre is yielding. Impossible to manoeuvre. Situation excellent. I am attacking." - General Ferdinand Foch
I think I'll keep them to myself thanks given the likely binary opinion that seems to be evolving of what constitues team contribution, despite that I agree with nearly all the points in the discussion that *do* communicate a disparity in what the Stalker AT contributes in PvE teams.
Unfortunately I find the tales of wonder miracle working Stalkers that can out kill a lot of other ATs hard to agree with because of my own experience with both Stalker and non-Stalker characters*. I've yet to see it happen.
However, said Brute of Cognito's experience may well have given some pretence of trying to perform a role it was not capabale off but is that appropriately measured by accounting for that contribution as a muppet? Hard to tell with such a brief summary of the experience.
Edit: * my own Stalker and non-Stalker Characters.
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a pure solo toon
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My eyes have boggled at a Energy / Energy Brute with no AoE attacks or taunt who didnt cycle his attacks over different targets and pretended to be a team player
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Sure, no aoes and no taunt are fine if you solo all the time, but as soon as you get on a team you won't get aggro so your fury bar will fall, and you will end up doing even less damage than the stalker.
I really should do something about this signature.
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I have recently rolled a Nin/Nin Stalker and as my only Villain she is good fun to solo. I am however, more of a team player enjoying the general humour and conversation in teams - not to mention the good xp!
Sadly I have been struggling to find teams for my little stalker and so far she has had to do the past 3 levels all alone 
Team requests and tells are either ignored or flatly declined - are stalkers really thart hated by the teaming masses or does she just need a bath?
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The players that feel the need to avoid teaming with stalkers suck.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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My eyes have boggled at a Energy / Energy Brute with no AoE attacks or taunt who didnt cycle his attacks over different targets and pretended to be a team player. Id take something like a Spines stalker over that muppet any day.
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Brutes aren't something I play, but I can think of plenty of reasons another player would reach such a build. And unless they were trying to present some pretence of capability in aggro management I'd be reticent to leap to what could be a condascending, blinkered, and way off the mark conclusion about team role and "muppets".
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I didnt leap to the conclusion. But bear in mind I was playing an AoE Fire/Dark Corruptor. And I was CONSISTENTLY face planting.
Now even if I had chosen to build a En/En toon with no AoE attacks or taunt and pretend somehow this was a reasonable team build - which I wouldnt have. THE VERY LEAST i would have done was cycle my attacks to take the damage off the poor corruptor who was doing most of the work for the team. And there is no way I would have charged in, aggrod the entire mob, then start poiunding all my single target attacks on one Leitenant leaving the corruptor to mop up everything else.
Trust me, I didnt jump to a conclusion. I gave it 10 mins, then gave up after face planting four or five times and even gently pointing the brute in the right direction.
Condescending/Blinkered/Way of the Mark? No. Everyone has to draw the line somewhere.
I dont call someone a "muppet" just because of their build.
(Incidently the Perma Granite tank without taunt or any AoE attacks and who "forgot" to run mudpots 4 times also gets tarred with this brush I am afraid)
I've been working on my stalker recently to unlock the Epic AT come issue 12. Now I would in no way profess to be an expert on the subject but I have noticed and adapted my stalker build to try and work both solo and in teams.
First off, I've made my stalker quite quick and vicious when it comes to melee attacks and assassin strikes. I tend to AS, melee the rest of the mob down to 2 targets, placate one, AS the other and finish off the survivor. Works quite nicely in fact!
As for my powers, I am VERY aware that Stalkers are squishies, pure and simple. We are not melee fight capable like a brute or scrapper, so trying to cover that angle is a dangerous thing.
What I have tried to do is make a character that can help the team with stealthing missions, recalling fallen comerades and giving leadership buffs ( that add a tad more damage and counter placate resist ) and sniping difficult targets that blasters wouldnt easily be able to get ( its amazing what placate, smoke bomb and snipe can do )
but my toon is in no way a front line combatant.
Which is sad in a way as the stalker does need more of an edge really, I suggested in another thread that assassin strikes could do PvE chance to terrorize perhaps?
Dont know how it would work parse ( PvP terrorize may be a tad unfair perhaps ) but would like to know what you guys think of the suggestion.
In-game and now on Twitter @Tsumiju Zero "The Nightmare of Dra'Gon"
"The flow of battle can only be influenced, not by realtime tactics, but by strategy."
Proud resident of the Union EU Server.
B.A.F. Trial Guide
Stalkers do need a PvP buff, no question. However, I think the trick is to make them better in teams. they dont really need and help solo.
My thoughts:
Increase chance of crits from AoE. I would be happy if this was 100%, like ST attacks.
Increase chance of crits from held or slept enemies (not stunned). This gives a great synergy with dominators, and would allow them to do more damage in teams.
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((Totally agree with the consensus epitomized clearly by PRAF68 and Cognitos comments))
Officially as a Hero:
"Yes you are shunned!, you are dirty and smelly and nobody wants you! - you have no honour in battle and are parasitic little blighters! - Shoo! - SHOO !!!"
/em,shoveswithbroom
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Rofl Mother - does this mean you won't drop your knitting to buff my stalker while hitting?
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I'm sure I can make an exception on the LGTF