Issue 11, Time Travelling, Plots and the Present.
By
Ammon,
Posted on: 2007-11-13 13:07 in Roleplaying
Timetravel causes migraines. Fact.
That's one of the ways of looking at it yes, and a common one as it avoids most of the pitfalls. Another option, and I think this is the one they've gone with in-game; is that you can go back and change things, because you already HAVE.
Everything anyone going in to the past could have done has already been done by them, ergo you MUST go back in time to do it again for the first time.
... And there's the headache... 
Say you went back in time intending to shoot your grandfather, the good old grandfather paradox. Well, instead, when you met him, you actually got along with the guy and changed your mind. You became best friends and when you eventually get back to your own time zone, you'll look through some old photo's and boom, you're in them; playing cards with grandad or something!
@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
We disscussed this on the militia forumns, too and originally we thought it would be a problem because of Rp-tools going back and god-moding the past. But after you play the Time Travel missions, you learn you can't just time travel willy nilly, they have to send you back to a point in time you choose, and if you do mess up, they will simple mend it, or cancel out that event (headaches begin). An RP-tool can come up to you and say "HA! I will go back in time and erase you!", simply reply "Yeah right like the menders would allow that.. pfft" or "Stupid stupid man.. time travel is immpossible" hding the secret altogether.
I think it's possible for them to do this, because they apparently exist in A) A dimesion or THE dimesion where time is static or seperate completly from all other timestreams, b) AT some where like the begining or end of time?
One thing I have noticed (Conspriacy forming!) is that while it appears you are going back in time to "mend" things, because the events are not playing out exactly, or like a looping paradox (Where you HAD to go back in time to stop the person BEFORE he corrupted time) that Maybe the great Mender Silos is mending things as he sees fit, slightly altering time to he sees fits but no so drastically as to destroy time itself...
Multi-verse, nuff said :P
If they went back in time to god-mod kill you when you are a bubby, then they wouldn't come back the the universe you still exist in...so they unfortuantly god-mod them-selves out of the game >_<
How about characters that are deceased in this timeline (let's call it 616 ) being replaced by characters from an alternate timeline eg 617?
Actually isn't that what the carbon law is partially about? If you go to far past your tether you seperate yourself from your native timelines and begin seeing other timelines or become unaffect by changes?
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How about characters that are deceased in this timeline (let's call it 616 ) being replaced by characters from an alternate timeline eg 617?
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that just sounds like very poor writing
*puts on Austin powers voice* Oh no! I've gone cross-eyed!
Zortel's idea sounds good, but it seems similar to the alternate-dimension thing. Where something in the past happened slightly differently, and the whole of reality is different, like the 5th column winning the war. Or statesman being run over before he got his powers, and the list goes on.
Though one could argue that other dimensions were created by divergances in the timeline such as the time travel scenario.
Perhaps it'd be a good idea to think that changing the past only had a -chance- to affect the current universe (i.e. if it's part of your character's story and/or the other parties involved agree with it)
Welcome to my nightmare. I've been wondering about the implications of this ever since i11 went on test, hence a series of rambling posts on SG boards. Although I agree that the alternative dimension solution works, it's not how the Ouroboros work and they are based on the premise that you can change the past and therefore so can you. I won't bore you with the detail that we went into but there are at least two salient points that I feel can make time travel 'acceptable' to roleplayers.
1) According to Ouroboros, there is an extent to which people can travel before they become 'absorbed' into the time stream. This implies that 'time' (or space, or fate, or gods, or what have you) can heal itself and therefore smooth out the problems that paradoxes can cause. I feel that this can give us the required portion of fudge to help use time-travel wisely.
2) The time jumping is overseen by the Ouroboros. Although in game, they allow us to go wherever we want, one could argue that they also police the time stream and would therefore prevent people from going back for trivial purposes or to 'erase' people from existence.
3) Using time travel to god-mod should really be treated in the same way as any other god-modding. I'll leave that to your discretion to work out appropriate tactics but someone who god-mods that they killed my parents will get the same treatment as someone who claims they shot me through the head.
But yes.... time travel is a headache. Ibuprofen please! 
@Dante EU - Union Roleplayer and Altisis Victim
The Militia: Union RP Supergroup - www.themilitia.org.uk
The problem is, I know of at least 3 time-travelling characters who's very existence is kinda borked by i11.
TimeKeeper (Played by Quilla)
Number Nine (Played by Zortel)
Doctor Temporis (Played by Doc T 
)
Each of these is borked to a greater or lesser extent by i11. One can't help but wonder how they're going to deal with it for their characters...
@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
Personally I'd rather avoid time travel in any form. It reeks too much of a DC/Marvel style retcon.
I'm not a fan of it, i know my reasons. To avoid brain meltdown i wont discuss!
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The time jumping is overseen by the Ouroboros. Although in game, they allow us to go wherever we want, one could argue that they also police the time stream and would therefore prevent people from going back for trivial purposes or to 'erase' people from existence.
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I never really saw it as that, I saw it as things in our past have been messed up even to the point where things we accomplished and the people we accomplished them with were different then how they have played out now. For instance, while at this moment I have not done the Tiki scroll arc, I SHOULD have done it (or the timestream would have been better off if I did or did it differnently), either by myself or with certain people in order to correct time or fix it so we are better prepare for the "coming storm" (like in heroes they prevented sylar from gainng regen in the past but peter becomes the bomb so they flashback again to redo it this time saving the world), therefore they send me back in time to fix it so I do the right way, or the way it needs to occur in order for the "storm" to be conquered.
If you can understand that.
As I've said over on the Militia forums, for time-travel, I'll always follow the 'Marvel way', in that you can go through time with no problem, but good luck on actually ending up in the right timeline.
I expect the 'science' behind the Marvel way is similar to Zortel's post, in that you can go back in time, and doing so means that even if you end up in the right timeline, your presence there automatically causes a 'diversion point', which means the timeline no longer leads exactly the same way to the future you came from.
Brief diagram HERE
In fact, what you would have to do, is find a timeline that's reasonably different to your own, but that by having your presence there, will change it into your own timeline.
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Say you went back in time intending to shoot your grandfather, the good old grandfather paradox. Well, instead, when you met him, you actually got along with the guy and changed your mind. You became best friends and when you eventually get back to your own time zone, you'll look through some old photo's and boom, you're in them; playing cards with grandad or something!
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"That's rich comming from you, Mr. 'I'm my own grandpa!'"'s best friend
Sorry had to be said
I think Time travel would be an interesting element from the rp point of view, especially with some of the things you guys can come up with. And i'm sure those player's who's characters who are effected by time travel will find a way of dealing with it.
As for dealing with altered timelines I like the multi-verse idea because it adds a lot of flare to character development. What if A goes back and kills B, the timeline spilts and A goes back to the wrong timeline, cue freak accedent and sch-daisy Quantam Leap-esque... A is in Bs body
My own view is that, while time travel is possible, it doesn't effect the future right away. You can go back and change Event A, but the ripple effect from that doesn't change the future right away. These ripples can be detected as they move forward through time and counter-acted.
Sure, go back to try and change stuff if you want, but it's more likely that you'll come back to find that nothing has changed yet, and, in fact, never will!
Formerly @Crimson Archer, now @CA
The Militia - Protecting Paragon City through roleplaying since June 2006!
So the pebble in the stream theory, drop an obstical into the path of the time line and it'll find away around it and get back on track.
Think Orson Wells' "The Time Machine."
The man who made the machine couldn't go back and save his fiancée from dying, because her death was the very reason for the machines' creation. If he were to save her life, then he'd never have needed to invent the machine to go back and save her, because she'd still be alive and he'd not need to go back and save her.
Cause and Effect?
My head hurts...
/me hands around the ibuprofen.
@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
Heh, my problem's sort of similar, this completely borks shydow's early history. He ran a dimensional organisation that stopped all the dimensions getting too similar and intermingling. I sort of ignore it now, but it's still there, and, uh... The menders do exactly the same thing, thus nullifying the groups existance. Good job i can now time travel and retcon it, eh?
Sudden thought. Use Bill n Ted's example. Villain A wants to kill Hero B, travels back in time to do so. Hero B gets knows this will happen already, and travels back in time to before Villain A arrives, tells his past self, and helps hand Villain A back to himself. Hero B trades witty remarks with past self, then returns to their present.
Everything is how it always was. Distorted
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Think Orson Wells' "The Time Machine."
The man who made the machine couldn't go back and save his fiancée from dying, because her death was the very reason for the machines' creation. If he were to save her life, then he'd never have needed to invent the machine to go back and save her, because she'd still be alive and he'd not need to go back and save her.
Cause and Effect?
My head hurts...
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This actually makes sense to me! Yay! If you going back actually changed anything, then you wouldn't need to go back and so you never did. The only time travels that are ever possible are those that fail.
I'm not much into the whole multiverse theory. Although I can understand it, it simply makes no sense to me.
indeed, all this time travel lark is one big headache, but i would point out that i have started up a plot line with three of my character which deals with time travel, is the battle-master/Dr. Vector plot, but both sides have or will built/ almost built devices to make themselve unaffected by any changes in time. The devices, sheilds, basicly sightly drop them out of phase with the normal timeline, of course they can still be seen, spoken to, answer and move around like normal, but they would not age nor be affected by sudden chrono changes, like someone going back before they were in the sheild and killing them, because they were in this timeline event not in it, (if that makes sense) they are working sightly off the mainline, yet still in the mainline.
I know, its hard to explain, and understand, but as the great "Doctor Who" said "time is just a great big wibble wobble thingy amabob...." (at least i think thats the line he says, can't find it on the net atm.)
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Sudden thought. Use Bill n Ted's example. Villain A wants to kill Hero B, travels back in time to do so. Hero B gets knows this will happen already, and travels back in time to before Villain A arrives, tells his past self, and helps hand Villain A back to himself. Hero B trades witty remarks with past self, then returns to their present.
Everything is how it always was. Distorted
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<Head explodes>
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but as the great "Doctor Who" said "time is just a great big wibble wobble thingy amabob...."
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"Time is a big ball of wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey... Stuff." - Dr Who, Blink
Isn't there the whole thing about time being quantum related anyway? So that travelling back in time can't accomplish anything because you've already observed the outcome of all the actions upto the point you travelled back in time, and by having observed this outcome you've already collapsed the waveforms down to that point.
The problem with the quantum idea is that the can of worm is opened by travelling forwards, thus observing the outcome of possible future events which then would cause them to have to be the actual events because you've observed the outcome...
The non-linear, non-subjective big ball of wibby-wobbly timey-wimey stuff sounds a lot better...
As we all know, Issue 11 is coming soon, which brings with it Time Travel. Now, as GM's in tabletop games know, timetravel normally means trouble, plot wise. Big trouble. Big annoying and game-breaking trouble which leaves you grey haired as if you just stepped into the future.
What if some player decided 'I know, I'll go back and take out Countess Crey, stopping the evil that is Crey Industries!'?
Apart from being a rather heinous pill to swallow due to the enemies and stories still being present in the game world, it screws over characters who have their backstory with Crey and such.
But time travel is possible. So how does one go about this new avenue?
And thus, I remember what I did for my character, Number Nine. Built by Crey (Hence the earlier example), and a Chronomanipulation Unit/Time Travelling gynoid. Yes, Nene can time travel, -but-, even if she did, it wouldn't affect the current timeline.
How so?
Nene goes back in time. Changes X. Timeline splits into A and B, Nene returns to her original timeline (A) where things are the same. B is the timeline where different things happened due to the change. Nene goes back again. Timeline C is created. Repeat ad infinitum.
No one goes back and kills (MajorNPC/character) stops event and changes the gameworld, et cetera, et cetera. Problem of time travel plot majorly effecting everyone solved.
Ideas? Thoughts? Throwing of rotten fruit?
Just one of those things which I (perhaps rightly or wrongly thought) could be nipped in the bud early.
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