Is PvP very one sided on Stalkers side
By
Alvan,
Posted on: 2006-12-16 24:42 in Everything about PvP
As a Regen, stalkers have never really caused me a problem. Assasins Strike, then DP followed by IH, 3 hits later, stalker is dead.
Even without IH, DP on it's own fully regains my HP after an AS and then it's only a matter of time before a visit to the hospital is in order for my little invisible friend
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Samaj, I'd advise you play against Blindfaith, Mellon Orasi or Meela. Really don't need hide to do well as a Stalker.
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Where can I find those players? I guess Union, damn that Im on defiant..
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Please tell me that you don't think Meela is played by a girl, Silver Weasel... >>
Not to wander off topic, but that's a bad stalker, Zoe.
I could say that regens rarely cause me a problem, because I land AS and then it's a matter of if my pre-queued Lunge lands faster than you can react and hit DP/IH/whatever, which it usually does.
Of course, that only works on Regens who are standing still and only bad regens do that.
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Samaj, I'd advise you play against Blindfaith, Mellon Orasi or Meela. Really don't need hide to do well as a Stalker.
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Where can I find those players? I guess Union, damn that Im on defiant..
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Please tell me that you don't think Meela is played by a girl, Silver Weasel... >>
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I heard she was played by a big girly-girl, with girly-girl parts and everything. A girl told me.
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Samaj, I'd advise you play against Blindfaith, Mellon Orasi or Meela.
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Don't quite think you're doing Blindfaith justice by listing her alongside Mellon Orasi. And no mention of Grim Rainbow or Salome? For shame!
@Synaesthetix
"Here, take some more bees with you. You may need them."
Union: FU//LoUD
"that Syn is that that" - Mothers Love
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Samaj, I'd advise you play against Blindfaith, Mellon Orasi or Meela.
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Don't quite think you're doing Blindfaith justice by listing her alongside Mellon Orasi. And no mention of Grim Rainbow or Salome? For shame!
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Indeed! Blindfaith= Best Stalker I know of.
I guess they are all still on union since nobody answered my question?
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I guess they are all still on union since nobody answered my question?
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yes they are all on union.
Havent seen grim rainbow for ages, maybe that says a lot about his stalking skill :P
My MA IDs:
Fiend Space: 211464
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Samaj, I'd advise you play against Blindfaith, Mellon Orasi or Meela. Really don't need hide to do well as a Stalker.
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Where can I find those players? I guess Union, damn that Im on defiant..
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It wouldn't take long at all to switch and to get a toon to 30 so you could see for yourself.
Heros
Max Powerz: Lv 50 Tanker
Villains
Max Khaos: Lv 50
Overlord of E.V.I.L.
My Brute - http://maxy-khaos.mybrute.com/
LF SG! Arc ID# 193083
Omg! And Gutts too! He is an awesome (and well protected) Stalker!
Gutts is about the best stalker I've seen, yes, with Faith right up there too.
Ah the fun times I spent in Sirens as Devi playing off against Gutts, learning about Stalker-Hunting. Good times 
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Except (and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong as I'm only on my second coffee ), there aren't any Hero AT's based enitrely around the concept of stealth and striking from the shadows. I just find it bewildering when people complain about not being able to see Stalker's given that that's the core concept behind the AT. Whether Cryptic should have introduced this type of AT and PvP zones at the same time is another thing entirely .
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Completely true. But seeing as Bats is basically a Heroic Stalker, you'd think they'd actually allow a melee Hero with Hide as well. It does make my teeth squirm though when the Stealth pool was deliberately nerfed for PvP and then the Stalker AT was brought in.
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Samaj, I'd advise you play against Blindfaith, Mellon Orasi or Meela.
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Don't quite think you're doing Blindfaith justice by listing her alongside Mellon Orasi. And no mention of Grim Rainbow or Salome? For shame!
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They're the three stalkers that really impressed me, that I've had the chance to get their name tags. Grim and Salome may be good but I've just not been killed by them, as of yet. 
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Samaj, I'd advise you play against Blindfaith, Mellon Orasi or Meela. Really don't need hide to do well as a Stalker.
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Where can I find those players? I guess Union, damn that Im on defiant..
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It wouldn't take long at all to switch and to get a toon to 30 so you could see for yourself.
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Preferably a squishy one 
My MA IDs:
Fiend Space: 211464
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Samaj, I'd advise you play against Blindfaith, Mellon Orasi or Meela. Really don't need hide to do well as a Stalker.
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Where can I find those players? I guess Union, damn that Im on defiant..
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It wouldn't take long at all to switch and to get a toon to 30 so you could see for yourself.
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Preferably a squishy one
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I already have a clone of my Union stalker on Defiant, just need to level them.
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Except (and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong as I'm only on my second coffee ), there aren't any Hero AT's based enitrely around the concept of stealth and striking from the shadows. I just find it bewildering when people complain about not being able to see Stalker's given that that's the core concept behind the AT. Whether Cryptic should have introduced this type of AT and PvP zones at the same time is another thing entirely .
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Completely true. But seeing as Bats is basically a Heroic Stalker, you'd think they'd actually allow a melee Hero with Hide as well. It does make my teeth squirm though when the Stealth pool was deliberately nerfed for PvP and then the Stalker AT was brought in.
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Actually invis for scrappers is becoming slightly en vogue at the moment and is quite amusing
**Acceptable "support" responses**
Its your fault
Its your computers fault
Its your ISPs fault
Spoon Weasel is right, if stealth/invis is a problem for heroes, it can be used by them as well, so it's tedious for both sides.
My take on it is that the visibility mechanism is crude and a bit of a bodge, surprising since CoV's Stalkers were implemented a fair while after PvP was released. I find it difficult to imagine the designers sitting around saying:
"lol, let's make one of the villain ATs revolve around being invisabel, lol it will rock in teh PvP!" ... but apparently they did.
It's a bit short sighted to think that Stalkers couldn't work without -Visibility constantly. I think Placate and the Ninjitsu powers (yes I know they are a bit rubbish) are a step in the right direction. I've also seen stealth abilities implemented in a more interesting way in at least one other mmo.
On Sunday I logged into Siren's as a hero, found 3 controllers and a couple of blasters fighting one or two stalkers so I logged back in with a dominator. I was joined by another dominator with an almost identical build and one stalker; the heroes had 3 controllers, all stealth/invisible (one was illusion) 2 blasters, one of which was playing the Defiance game (stealthed) with another blaster. The only visible hero was a tank who stood around as bait. This was the setup for the dullest little skirmish this side of a particularly dull day in Dullville.
Chasing the blaster Gargoyle Rex around as he TP'd about was approximately a billion times more fun, and illustrates that illusiveness does not necessarily mean unseen.
The way I see it the visibility issue is less of a problem for heroes since they know with complete certainty they will need to deal with it. For villains I've played building in +Per has either been practically impossible or a secondary issue because even in PvP you won't have much use for it (even when a few heroes are stealthed/invis), except when you come across a bundle of heroes all using it and if you have low numbers and are out numbered you are pretty much screwed...unless of course you are a stalker and the game then becomes a submarine vs submarine hunt; the net result encourages a stalker monoculture in PvP.
i dont think stalkers are done very well tbh, well for that matter I dont think villains as a whole are. They have great potential and variety but simply put the more dedicated nature of heroes wins out in pvp, at least it does at the moment.
Generally dominators and corrupters can fall over in seconds unless in an organised team and brutes fury has been bugged since release (its still bugged now albeit in a more benefical way ) so people unfortunately gravitate to stalkers as they ahve built in survivability.
Personally I would prefer stalkers to become more like scrappers so you are not forced to play hit/run/hide due to having less hit points than that of a blaster on a melee character.
**Acceptable "support" responses**
Its your fault
Its your computers fault
Its your ISPs fault
Problem has been since ED that the secondary effects and movement dominate PvP.
Without defences, most characters will be two-shotted by any damage dealer and the Hold/Immob/Sleep will usually lock a character for long enough.
The introduction of a system that averaged all AT's had the knockon effect of making specific tactics the only viable option of quick kills; and the set-up time of most AT's only amplifies that. MM's take a good 30 seconds to get ready.
Movement powers make some powers all but useless and ranged combat takes place at a level that any SS/TP can cover in a second.
My soloutions : Late as it is, so possible holes in logic/gameplay.
1) Allow disorient effects to carry on into movement powers without -ve or detoggles; but make them less controlled. If hit with a Disorient and then you SS away, you're likely to hit something.
2) Allow TP self to be TP to Foe.
3) Fix Drones with TP to Hospital; they aren't Deus Ex Machinae.
4) Remove a lot of the PvE Elements.
5) Give all AT's minor resists to Damage/Secondaries.
6) Remove Hide and replace with Placate; or give some warning that a Invisible person may be near; though not there exact location. Similarly remove Per buffs.
7) Allow bonuses(like inspirations) to appear randomly throughout the map so there is a reason to leave the confines of the base.
8) Allow all non-extreme powers to recharge automatically once defeated, ESPECIALLY Rest.
9) Don't place Longbow/Arachnos in front of mission entrances/exits.
10) Drop PvP on timer to 5 seconds.
11) Broadcast Attack/Defence % to people who've completed the missions.
12) Have defeated Heroes/Villains give up one of their inspirations to their victor.
13) Repair Sirens Villains Base, Sirens Beach War.
14) Allow Bodyguard mode to be set onto any other Team Mate within a certain range; as in Masterminds.
15) Place Acc debuffs/Def buffs on anyone moving.
16) Increase ranged attacks range, but place an Acc debuff on any that go beyond normal range.
17) Allow NPC Heroes/Villains to patrol the zone looking for people to attack. These should only be at Boss level. Delete them if players of the same team arrive.
I.E. If 4 NPC Heroes are running the zone, and a hero arrives, drop that bot. If he then leaves, respawn it.
Overall Effect, make Players last a little longer, give them something to fight for and prevent a lot of the more unfriendly elements from appearing; I hope.
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They have great potential and variety but simply put the more dedicated nature of heroes wins out in pvp, at least it does at the moment.
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I think you're on the mark, at least partially. The potential variation in villain builds means that players can build something away from the perceived usage of the AT that works great/fine/passably in PvE, but doesn't live up to expectations in PvP. This is in part why you get /Thermal Corrs without buffs, /Dark MMs without Darkest Night, and control-heavy Domi-"trollers"; the glaring deficiency is most heavily felt in the lack of buffing sets in villain PvP, even though there are a large number of great buffs at their disposal. (Though there's still argument that some villain buffs could use upwards adjustment to make them at least on a level with hero equivalents.)
I also find it tricky to make a lot of villain builds work as effectively as I'd like to in time for the most populated PvP zone (Sirens), which may just be perception; Warburg is a much more level playing field, but suffers from the villain vs. villain potential, which usually ends up with Stalkers switching targets from hero squishies with +Per to villain squishies who often lack it. Level 50 PvP brings the issue of APP/PPP into the fray, which is a whole other bag of snakes.
One of the bigger problems from my viewpoint, is that you rarely see many villains in level 50 PvP (Arena or RV). Without more than a handful of people working on developing tactics and learning how to be the Scissors to the heroic Paper, villain PvP is going to be somewhat disjointed. There are a number of VGs on Union who carry the torch for successful and varied villain PvP, but there aren't many of them.
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Generally dominators and corrupters can fall over in seconds unless in an organised team
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In fairness, you can say the same of any AT - that definitely applies to Defenders and Controllers as much as it does Doms and Corrs.
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so people unfortunately gravitate to stalkers as they ahve built in survivability.
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Not everyone gravitates to Stalkers though - as far as my current list of villainous PvP alts on Union runs in order of preference (high-low) it's: MM, Corr, Brute, Dom, Dom, no Stalker in sight - and I know I'm not alone in that. It's not so much an issue of 'survivability' as it is 'perceived self-sufficiency' and 'perceived/relative ease-of-play'; if all you want to do is be able to run around not get killed, Stalkers are aces, ditto if all you want to do is mooch around Bloody Bay and overdose on red insps to get rep to 400, or take on lone Empaths in Sirens. It's definitely possible for Stalkers to work highly effectively in teams, but there are very few who seem to want to take the time or effort to even try.
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Personally I would prefer stalkers to become more like scrappers so you are not forced to play hit/run/hide due to having less hit points than that of a blaster on a melee character.
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Buffing other attacks and removing the overwhelming focus on AS and Hide would certainly adjust Stalkers into being a more team-friendly AT, but it would be a tricky endeavour.
@Synaesthetix
"Here, take some more bees with you. You may need them."
Union: FU//LoUD
"that Syn is that that" - Mothers Love
I have no problems with Stalkers what so ever; I play all my alts in PvP, Scrapper, Tank, WS, Defenders, Blaster. I wouldn't say Stalkers give me more trouble than any other Villain AT.
Sure you can't see them, but they arent called Stalkers for nothing. Try moving about more, and not standing in one spot arguing in Broadcast Chat about how the Villains are so Villainous
.. and why you keep dieing. Get yourself into a team and play together. When in a balanced team PvPs a breeze.
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Problem has been since ED that the secondary effects and movement dominate PvP.
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Movement has always dominated PvP. The main effect that ED had in terms of PvP was to rebalance the discrepancy between potential damage and potential defences (small 'd') by reducing the numbers on both ends. In terms of PvP, in fact, ED was a positive change.
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Without defences, most characters will be two-shotted by any damage dealer and the Hold/Immob/Sleep will usually lock a character for long enough.
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If the former was true, there would be no squishies in PvP; there are very few ATs who can two-shot anything, and even the ones that can 2-shot foes on paper do not repeat this flawlessly in PvP situations.
Two cases in point: recently playing my level 28 Ill/Sonic in one of the larger Sirens events on Union, I was constantly beset by a number of Stalkers; even when I did get AS'd by EM/Spines Stalkers, I did not instantly die. Out of some 30 initial AS's, even during horrible lag and frequent crashes, I bit the dust just once to Stalkers. Second instance: in the last few days in Sirens, my Fire/Kin Corr has had the pleasure of being the target of a stealthing Blaster who only PvPs with full defiance (*yawn*), which should theoretically be a guaranteed two-shot death; not only have I suffered the two-shot death a tiny fraction of the time, I've also inflicted numerous defeats on said Blaster.
Hold/Immobs/Sleeps/Status effects - we've been through this before how many times? Pack Breakfrees! 1 full tray of BFs at level 50 will easily last you a session of intense PvP - and if you run out you can always go and buy more.
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MM's take a good 30 seconds to get ready.
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I'm pretty sure MMs can go from 0 to Bodyguard in well under 10 seconds (I'll try to time it); upgrades from that point are a matter of priority. When I entered the Squished! tournament, I thought resummoning (especially in an Arena environment) would be the death of me, but I entered anyway in part to see how it would pan out. It would appear from my experiences in that event, even against skilled PvPers, that resummoning is not as crippling a problem as you might imagine.
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Movement powers make some powers all but useless and ranged combat takes place at a level that any SS/TP can cover in a second.
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SS suffers from suppression, and TP comes with its own drawbacks... unsuppressed movement also suffers from its own limitations. I do think Fly gets the raw end of the deal in terms of ways to nullify it, at least in lower levelled PvP zones, but such is life.
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1) Allow disorient effects to carry on into movement powers without -ve or detoggles; but make them less controlled. If hit with a Disorient and then you SS away, you're likely to hit something.
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Disorients only detoggle if you lack Disorient protection, firstly; the fact that this occurs is a necessary check and balance of PvP, removing it would make powers like Acrobatics overpowered, for instance. Your 'Wobbly Physics' concept would probably be extremely difficult to implement, as well as less successful than you'd imagine - a foe that can run away, albeit with a list to starboard, is still a foe that can run away.
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2) Allow TP self to be TP to Foe.
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Teleport is a travel power... not a PvP power. 
It's not difficult to move in on a player using TP in any event, all this would be doing is making Teleport horribly effective in the hands of Blappers, Stalkers, and Brutes.
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3) Fix Drones with TP to Hospital; they aren't Deus Ex Machinae.
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But, they are.
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4) Remove a lot of the PvE Elements.
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If you don't want PvE elements, there's the Arena. Adapting to the PvE elements of Zonal PvP is one of the key skills in Zonal PvP.
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5) Give all AT's minor resists to Damage/Secondaries.
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Would invariably serve to increase the gap between certain ATs and others.
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6) Remove Hide and replace with Placate; or give some warning that a Invisible person may be near; though not there exact location. Similarly remove Per buffs.
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Stalkobot's ideas are probably more effective at reworking Stalkers; these changes would just make a mess of the whole AT, IMHO.
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7) Allow bonuses(like inspirations) to appear randomly throughout the map so there is a reason to leave the confines of the base.
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I honestly don't see base-campers being tempted out by a few inspirations, especially not when inspirations are currently readily available by taking out NPC mobs. Even worse, it might lead to a new problem with people making insp-dashes instead of actually PvPing.
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8) Allow all non-extreme powers to recharge automatically once defeated, ESPECIALLY Rest.
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Sometimes people need a physical hint to suggest that their current strategy might be flawed; furthermore, this would negate the point of base hospitals not returning you to full health/end - and I can't see that happening.
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9) Don't place Longbow/Arachnos in front of mission entrances/exits.
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It's not difficult to click in without being toasted. 
That, and would you expect either group to leave every key installation unguarded?
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10) Drop PvP on timer to 5 seconds.
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Unfair on people with slow PCs/people who've crashed and relogged.
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11) Broadcast Attack/Defence % to people who've completed the missions.
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Fair enough, but that's not got anything to do with improving PvP, it's a QoL issue.
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12) Have defeated Heroes/Villains give up one of their inspirations to their victor.
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Horrible idea, unfairly impacts on ATs and players who obviously need more assistance in PvP - not less.
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13) Repair Sirens Villains Base, Sirens Beach War.
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In what way?
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14) Allow Bodyguard mode to be set onto any other Team Mate within a certain range; as in Masterminds.
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Not sure what you're driving at, but I'm pretty sure you jumped the pavement and ended up in the storefront display.
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15) Place Acc debuffs/Def buffs on anyone moving.
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Arise, Forted Spines/SR Scrapper running SS, SJ, and Focused Accuracy - your time is now!
In other words, easily exploitable, and could further imbalance existing issues. Plus, it would be a terrible day for the fluid nature of CoX PvP if we all had to stand still in one place to try to attack each other.
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16) Increase ranged attacks range, but place an Acc debuff on any that go beyond normal range.
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See above, really.
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17) Allow NPC Heroes/Villains to patrol the zone looking for people to attack. These should only be at Boss level. Delete them if players of the same team arrive.
I.E. If 4 NPC Heroes are running the zone, and a hero arrives, drop that bot. If he then leaves, respawn it.
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Along similar lines, I wouldn't mind seeing NPC (Elite) Bosses in Sirens that patrolled the zone in a set pattern, but headed towards players with the highest number of kills past a certain trigger, with counters reset after PC defeat - it'd at least make things more interesting. However, doesn't this all run contrary to point #4?
@Synaesthetix
"Here, take some more bees with you. You may need them."
Union: FU//LoUD
"that Syn is that that" - Mothers Love
Essentially I like the way how hide is implemented and how stalkers 'work'. Problem is that they are too weak out of hide.. Kind of enforcing the way how villains have conditions in PvP to be good (hide,scourge,bodyguard etc), whereas heroes dont have such limitations. This is why villains are perceived to be more 'challenging' to play imo. Unfortunately, being challenging to play is also a weakness.
Ps. I have a lvl 31 dominator on union. I just didnt like it in union sirens.
If we're doing our jobs properly you don't find us, Hammer. We find you.
(And I think the Weasel means stealth and not hide - I don't mind being seen, but my screen has to say "Hidden" or my attacks are garbage. I'm not EM.)