Is PvP very one sided on Stalkers side

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Movement powers make some powers all but useless and ranged combat takes place at a level that any SS/TP can cover in a second.


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Movement is extremely important as pointed out, but Im more annoyed at the way how some movement powers are completely nullified by certain powers.

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1) Allow disorient effects to carry on into movement powers without -ve or detoggles; but make them less controlled. If hit with a Disorient and then you SS away, you're likely to hit something.


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Interesting, I dont see how it could be implemented though. Besides, the problem is that boosting ONE secondary effect puts others in inferior position because secondary effects are divided on powerset basis. Some sets are already perceived stronger because of their secondary effects. And increasing secondary effect usefulness will only make melee chars even STRONGER, because its the squishies that will suffer most from them.

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2) Allow TP self to be TP to Foe.
3) Fix Drones with TP to Hospital; they aren't Deus Ex Machinae.


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2.) is interesting. Would be almost too good though, at least if you could to thru walls (tp to target)..
3.) You mean drones wouldnt kill? I dont understand what you mean with this.

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4) Remove a lot of the PvE Elements.


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I agree with this, although pve elements are there to make pvp zones interesting in an ingame sense.


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5) Give all AT's minor resists to Damage/Secondaries.


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Dangerous balancewise, although some ATs DO suffer from too small survivability (defenses). I think they'd need bigger hp bars, since resistance is not so useful against certain ATs. (If youre thinking about stalkers im surprised you came up with this idea since the main strength of AS is its unresistability). But, again, if you improve ALL characters in this way, that will diminish the value of SUPPORT toons.

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6) Remove Hide and replace with Placate; or give some warning that a Invisible person may be near; though not there exact location. Similarly remove Per buffs.


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Im not sure I like this. Besides, most of the time you can tell theres a stalker in zone with /whoall.

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7) Allow bonuses(like inspirations) to appear randomly throughout the map so there is a reason to leave the confines of the base.


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Nice idea. Currently there are just mobs which simply arent worthwhile, and hotspots threaten with debt.

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8) Allow all non-extreme powers to recharge automatically once defeated, ESPECIALLY Rest.


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Well, unlikely to happen. There might be a technical reason why not even. We'd still have to decide which powers recharge. Overall im inclined to agree on this.

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9) Don't place Longbow/Arachnos in front of mission entrances/exits.


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[censored] yeah! Being in PvP zone is dangerous enough.

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10) Drop PvP on timer to 5 seconds.


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No. Not all people load at the same speed. This could make people with bad conn/computer sitting ducks exiting a mission.

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11) Broadcast Attack/Defence % to people who've completed the missions.
12) Have defeated Heroes/Villains give up one of their inspirations to their victor.


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Very nice ideas!
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13) Repair Sirens Villains Base, Sirens Beach War.


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I dont understand this one, what is there to be repaired?

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14) Allow Bodyguard mode to be set onto any other Team Mate within a certain range; as in Masterminds.
15) Place Acc debuffs/Def buffs on anyone moving.
16) Increase ranged attacks range, but place an Acc debuff on any that go beyond normal range.
17) Allow NPC Heroes/Villains to patrol the zone looking for people to attack. These should only be at Boss level. Delete them if players of the same team arrive.
I.E. If 4 NPC Heroes are running the zone, and a hero arrives, drop that bot. If he then leaves, respawn it.


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Interesting ideas that deserve further discussion.

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control-heavy Domi-"trollers"

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I dont agree on this. From my viewpoint, dominator secondary is ten times less useful in pvp than their primary. They just happen to have AOE control powers that mostly suck horribly in pvp (and mostly in pve as well). Im not sure if you referred to their AoE mezzes when you said 'control heavy'..

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control-heavy Domi-"trollers"

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I dont agree on this. From my viewpoint, dominator secondary is ten times less useful in pvp than their primary. They just happen to have AOE control powers that mostly suck horribly in pvp (and mostly in pve as well). Im not sure if you referred to their AoE mezzes when you said 'control heavy'..

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The Dominator secondary is key to Domination building, which is key to victory as a Dom. Your primary is generally far more useful after you're 'sparkling' than before (with a couple of exceptions), and after that point you're not going to kill anyone cycling your ST Hold and ST Immob. Having a full and well-slotted attack chain in your secondary past that point will allow you to kill more quickly and efficiently, and reduce the risk of you being hunted down before you can claim your scalp.

Mostly, I'm referring to a swathe of Dominators who I've personally witnessed fruitlessly trying to use their AoE control, but my comments were also directed at those who barely touch their secondaries in the PvP zones. There's no reason why any Dominator should be taking more than 45-60 seconds to build up Domination with the changes, yet I routinely see Dominators plodding around the zones firing off an 'empty' mez (one without secondary effects that will affect the target) instead of a secondary attack that is worth far more in terms of Domination points.

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control-heavy Domi-"trollers"

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I dont agree on this. From my viewpoint, dominator secondary is ten times less useful in pvp than their primary. They just happen to have AOE control powers that mostly suck horribly in pvp (and mostly in pve as well). Im not sure if you referred to their AoE mezzes when you said 'control heavy'..

[/ QUOTE ]
The Dominator secondary is key to Domination building, which is key to vistory as a Dom. Your primary is generally far more useful after you're 'sparkling' than before (with a couple of exceptions), and after that point you're not going to kill anyone cycling your ST Hold and ST Immob. Having a full and well-slotted attack chain in your secondary past that point will allow you to kill more quickly and efficiently, and reduce the risk of you being hunted down before you can claim your scalp.

Mostly, I'm referring to a swathe of Dominators who I've personally witnessed fruitlessly trying to use their AoE control, but my comments were also directed at those who barely touch their secondaries in the PvP zones. There's no reason why any Dominator should be taking more than 45-60 seconds to build up Domination with the changes, yet I routinely see Dominators plodding around the zones firing off an 'empty' mez (one without secondary effects that will affect the target) instead of a secondary attack that is worth far more in terms of Domination points.

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Err.. you play a dominator in pvp yourself, right? 45-60 seconds, yeah great, except where I play they die in 5.. Unless its a duel with something like telekinesis involved..

ps. my power blast and power bolt would be FAR FAR more inefficient in building up domination than my dominate and mesmerize. The latter can at least do something if stacked enough. Besides having held and toggledropped tanks, scrappers and dwarfs in sirens call with my dom WITHOUT domination, I cant see what point is there to my to use something like power blast which is roughly equivalent to mutagen in usefulness. Not all doms are /psi you know.

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Err.. you play a dominator in pvp yourself, right? 45-60 seconds, yeah great, except where I play they die in 5..

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All the Dominators I know, including myself, have a positive kill/death ratio - and one of those only hit 20 a couple of days, jumped straight in Sirens and picked up an SO (6k bounty) straight off the bat (Hi Alv!).

45-60 seconds is a very liberal estimate, if you can't a) stay alive that long and/or b) hit Dom in that timespan, you need to seriously review your tactics and build.

edit: Additions after my reply...

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ps. my power blast and power bolt would be FAR FAR more inefficient in building up domination than my dominate and mesmerize. The latter can at least do something if stacked enough.

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It doesn't matter if you've done no damage in the Dom-building phase, the crucial point is after that when you hit Domination, and unleash the [censored] fury. In terms of both 'dom points per attack' and 'dom points per endurance' you're still better off cycling Power Bolt and Power Blast - the only times you shouldn't be using them are when the activation time will get you splatted.

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Besides having held and toggledropped tanks, scrappers and dwarfs in sirens call with my dom WITHOUT domination

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... but it's still far faster with Domination, and as such you suffer less from the effects of mez-suppression...

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I cant see what point is there to my to use something like power blast which is roughly equivalent to mutagen in usefulness. Not all doms are /psi you know.

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My Grav/En has the following chain: Power Blast, Crush, Power Bolt*5 = Domination providing those attacks hit. As far as Doms go, that's a pretty slow Domination chain, but it's 100 times better than cycling ST mez + ST mez.

On the one hand you're complaining that you die too much, on the other hand you're arguing that your tactics are superior; I'm telling you that the tactics I'm using do not lead to my imminent and frequent death, yet you seemingly refuse to consider them. I see a logical chasm here, and I'm trying to help you out of it.

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Err.. you play a dominator in pvp yourself, right? 45-60 seconds, yeah great, except where I play they die in 5..

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All the Dominators I know, including myself, have a positive kill/death ratio - and one of those only hit 20 a couple of days, jumped straight in Sirens and picked up an SO (6k bounty) straight off the bat (Hi Alv!).

45-60 seconds is a very liberal estimate, if you can't a) stay alive that long and/or b) hit Dom in that timespan, you need to seriously review your tactics and build.

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Right. I suggest you come to defiant to check what its like in here, if you said it wouldnt take long..

edit: I admit I havent been to sirens for some time now.

editx2: join defiant pvpers channel if you come, it allows me to get better in touch with you or your friends.

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Right. I suggest you come to defiant to check what its like in here, if you said it wouldnt take long..

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I never said anything of the sort (that was Max, although I agree) but I don't have any Defiant slots left on either of my game accounts, and don't feel like deleting the alts I have to prove a point. As far as Defiant goes, I know Abu's Dominator lasts far longer than 5 seconds in the zones, you might want to ask him for pointers if you don't like my advice.

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editx2: join defiant pvpers channel if you come, it allows me to get better in touch with you or your friends.

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FWIW I don't have any free Global channels either.

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As far as Defiant goes, I know Abu's Dominator lasts far longer than 5 seconds in the zones, you might want to ask him for pointers if you don't like my advice.

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Bah.. Of course you had to resort to the one exception that I pointed out myself, that is, telekinesis..

I know Abu's dominator as such isnt very strong in sirens though. I have fought him many times (he has same sets as my dom btw). Most of pvp zone combat he is SJing away just like I would . If you call that survival then ok.. He beat me in an arena duel because of telekinesis, I admit that. And thumbs up for him for that. Only dominator so far to have done so.

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As far as Defiant goes, I know Abu's Dominator lasts far longer than 5 seconds in the zones, you might want to ask him for pointers if you don't like my advice.

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Bah.. Of course you had to resort to the one exception that I pointed out myself, that is, telekinesis..

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Abu doesn't just TK people around. I've been in Siren's on the hero side, on my high-level Blaster (Sonic/Elec) when he was out, and I'm pretty sure he killed me at one point. He never TKed me, it wasn't any sort of one-on-one fight (mass fight in water near villain base, actually), and he wasn't dying all the time from what I saw.

I really don't think the situation on Defiant is vastly different than it is on Union. There aren't a lot of good PvP Doms around, no... but they do exist, and they can get kills. They're just not an easy AT.

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but they do exist, and they can get kills. They're just not an easy AT.

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But, as I pointed out earlier, being difficult to play is essentially a weakness, because majority of players as a whole arent very good in pvp. So overall balance will shift to heroes if heroes in general are easier to play.

ps. Bah... you have made me want to come to union sirens now.. and I know im more pve-oriented with my build right now..

EDIT: and by the way, I think it would be better to say "team tactics", because dominators get only so far with their own play. Kiting is obvious after all.

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but they do exist, and they can get kills. They're just not an easy AT.

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But, as I pointed out earlier, being difficult to play is essentially a weakness, because majority of players as a whole arent very good in pvp. So overall balance will shift to heroes if heroes in general are easier to play.

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Except Stalkers.

Frankly, I'd be disgusted and really upset if they made Doms easy to play, and took away one of the really fun challenges left in the game. They're an absolute joy, and it's so nice having an AT that doesn't have any ridiculous overpowered powerset combinations that you're pretty much locked into for PvP. The person I'd consider Union's best Dom is a Plant/Thorns, which is in no way ideal for PvP, but it's still workable. It's also nice having an AT where every monkey who's been given an FoTM build to copy can't do almost exactly the same things a good player can do.

As far as the hero/villain disbalance, I don't think villain ATs being "more difficult to play" (which as noted above, I don't really agree with - villains have Stalkers) is the disbalancing issue. I think it's just that heroes were made when the devs didn't really have more experience and weren't thinking so much about balance. Villains weren't given anywhere near as many ridiculous "I WIN" type powers - and that's a good thing. Except it does cause a disbalance that's going to be there until heroes get toned down, or they give in and buff villains a bit. Turning Doms into another easy AT isn't going to make any difference in high-level PvP when heroes have the ancillaries they do.

I didnt mean that they should make dominators the 'easy' ATs. Well, villains also have brutes after all.. Ultimately I dont agree that stalkers are easy in pvp either, at least when youre against people who know anything about pvp. My own stalker (claws/nin) is just as difficult to play in sirens lvls (I reckon she will get easier to play only in high lvl zones like RV) imo. But I guess thats due to my build I have chosen.

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Ultimately I dont agree that stalkers are easy in pvp either, at least when youre against people who know anything about pvp.

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As you've said yourself, the majority of people in PvP aren't very good. This generally makes them perfect Stalker-fodder.

Anyway, we'll probably just have to agree to disagree on Dominators, as I think they're just fantastic after all the recent changes (and they were a lot of fun before that). To me, the challenge of playing them is just all part of the enjoyment, and I find them to be very powerful and rewarding when played well. I'm levelling up a PvP-focused Dom at the moment, as my two higher ones on Union are running PvE specs at the moment... not sure if I'll ever get around to another on Defiant, sorry.

Anyway, I'm off to bed. Syn's complaining it's time to sleep, after all the time spent arguing in this thread, and pointing it out to me.

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As you've said yourself, the majority of people in PvP aren't very good. This generally makes them perfect Stalker-fodder.

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Well, my views may be the way they are possibly because I dont even take 'cannon fodder' into account For my blaster, majority of all people I meet in pvp are cannon fodder heh. And most otherwise good players piloting dominators too, but there are exceptions

I agree doms in pve, Im enjoying mine at the moment too.

Stasis will probably kick me when she sees what time I was up to thinking those up and I've got Hammerfall/Syn's comments to go throug. Ok...

First of all, I've sweetened a bit towards ED; but it's fundamental problem was that it tried to average damage potential whilst still allowing specific builds to have a timed GOD mode. Given that there's usually one person you can two shot and someone you can't hurt easily, the squishies will be stepped on and the Invulnerable's ignored. Team PvP only has synergy when the team is close together; which turns it into Rainbow Six at times.

1) 'disorient' (small d) was meant to cover the range of effects. It's unfair to have every second shot (that gets through) leave you bewildered and without toggles; Hence the Blapper nerf; but having -fly/-jump/long toggles stick to you way longer than the actual effect just leave you crippled. Characters with Movement powers can just avoid 50% of the battle so there needs to be something that can frustrate them though; hence the 'wobble'. Acc debuffs might be the way to go on this, but like Sprint/End use, they only really need to happen whilst moving, not whilst toggled.

2) Teleport is far too unwieldy to use with a targetting cursor unless your opponent is still; Teleporting after them; though perhaps not next to them would bring it back to being useful.

3) Having Drones that kill breaks some fundamental game laws and is a lazy way of protecting bases; especially as problems like Scrapyard would also be solved. Detention Fields would be the obvious answer; but as we're trying to keep it moving a non-kill TP to Hospital would be superior.
(Would also defeat Drone-TP'ers)

4) PVE Elements. I think there are too many of them at a high enough level. Raging battles shouldn't be interrupted by a random passerby that dominates you; unless the PvE elements are re-thought out for PvP. Unless (See 16)

5) Here I'd go with Hammerfall's idea and increase Hitpoint bars; Having an uber-Toon taken out by a single shot to be team-ganked seems unnecessarily cruel.

6) This is a problem specifically with Stalkers. Unless you have a Stalker-Hunter build; you are forced to keep moving. This impacts heavily on characters with rooted/long animation times; because they're just waving a large sign saying "AS me"; that's a failing of the game and should allow them some information on getting attacked; without depleting the Stalker's ability.

Perhaps a good idea would be for your character to flash when someone targets you. That still gives you coded warning but allows Stalkers to do their job.

7) Reward drops : I actually really like this idea, it's mine though, and what it is Given the old BF/Stamina problem; having a Reward point would help a lot; especially as Stalkers could camp the Respite one, waiting for Blasters etc. Contrary to Syn, I'd think Inspiration rushes would be good for the game as it's a sort of 'ice-breaker' for the true battle.

8) Why hospitals don't return you to full health/stamina; but keep you in for a small time (like using Rest for example) is an aspect I've never understood. Why cripple the flow of gaming?

9) Whilst Hammer agrees, Syn doesn't think so. Main problem is that the Ubermensch tend to distract PvP/ and gank those with slow connections as they come out.

10) Gah. True. I was looking at some way of actually making Mission Running more treachorous. I can caltrop a door(which they don't take effect from) and they can SS to the next mission before I'm allowed to take a shot. Perhaps just an implementation fix. Five seconds after you move?

11) Obvious fix really.
12) Disagree with Syn due to 7. And it's also the only viable 'reward' they'll let us play with. If you don't want to lose them, use them

13) Sirens Villain Base suffers (still) from a hole in the Defences where Heroes can pepper Villains straight out of the Hospital. Quilty has suggested the reverse entrance, but it's NOT obvious. A good team of Heroes can stand on the Gantry and pigeon shoot; whilst the same can't be said for the Hero Base.

The Beach Hotspot suffers a bug where it takes up to half an hour for the battle to commence unless it's forced. Neither the Library, Street or Garden Hotspot suffers from this.

14) Bodyguard : Tanks/Brutes/Scrappers suffer from the fact that their Taunt Aura/Taunt only works against specific targetted targets (I'm assuming Stalkers don't take Taunt and other AT's wouldn't want it). So, without wanting a Taunt AOE which would be deadly; have a Malefactor/Lackey equivalent where damage would be passed across to a nearby team mate where you still take the brunt of the damage and the secondaries. This would give Support characters a better lifespan; and be more Heroic/Villainous.

15) [ QUOTE ]
Plus, it would be a terrible day for the fluid nature of CoX PvP if we all had to stand still in one place to try to attack each other.

[/ QUOTE ] Some of us already have to. And it would nerf movement domination without actually nerfing it; if you see what I mean. Movement's supposed to be good for running, not attacking

16) In CoX generally, Environment Elements have ranges that far surpass PC range; so increasing the range whilst nerfing the chance to hit at these extreme ranges would do something to bring ranged combat into the game; also making Movement less of a Dominator.

17) This brings a bit of personality to the zone, and actually works in with 4) by providing help for those outnumbered; and a feeling that Sirens isn't totally deserted. Mass Lt/Boss's mobs are debt fountains; singular Bosses could be fun.

Dammit, next time, back to shorter posts Thanks for the comments though guys, even if I did keep you up past your bedtime Syn

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My Grav/En has the following chain: Power Blast, Crush, Power Bolt*5 = Domination providing those attacks hit. As far as Doms go, that's a pretty slow Domination chain, but it's 100 times better than cycling ST mez + ST mez.

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First, dominate and mesmerize have essentially faster animation and less rooting than power bolt. They recharge fast enough so you can essentially spam dominate, mesmerize,dominate,mesmerize,dominate,mesmerize without pause. I havent checked what my current domination buildup speed in pvp is after the changes, so I pass commenting on that. Second, power blast and power bolt have no useful secondary effect, unless you count once-in-a-blue-moon chance of knockback that only works on newbs without acrobatics. Im saying that it is better to use attacks that mez in the FIRST place instead of using weak attacks to build domination and THEN mez. IF you hit domination then you use it, obviously. Its not like power blast and bolt build domination ANY FASTER than the mezzes. You only need about 3 holds to go through, say, integration anyway. Meaning I should go through their hold protection before reaching domination anyway. Besides, if I want to kill someone I resort to total focus and bonesmasher, not some bloody power blast. My build doesnt have power blast and is not gonna get it.

I am also NOT saying that my tactics are superior. I just believe you are exaggerating the effect of tactics can have, apart from the glaringly obvious stuff, without which you'd be dead meat anyway.

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15) [ QUOTE ]
Plus, it would be a terrible day for the fluid nature of CoX PvP if we all had to stand still in one place to try to attack each other.

[/ QUOTE ] Some of us already have to. And it would nerf movement domination without actually nerfing it; if you see what I mean. Movement's supposed to be good for running, not attacking



[/ QUOTE ] I dont understand what youre after here. Besides I dont agree with the 'movement not supposed to be good for attacking' bit. Personally being able to move so that you can constantly attack and making coutnerattacking as difficult as possible is part of PvP for me and obviously requires skill. To make it more even for everybody would require lessening the rooting effects of certain powers in pvp. Rooting obviously creates imbalance between certain ATs. (Devs have worked on that though, thermal corrs had the rooting from their healing aura removed os itd be equal to empaths)

Sorry for multiple posts but answering to such large posts is difficult without breaking them to smaller bits.

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8) Why hospitals don't return you to full health/stamina; but keep you in for a small time (like using Rest for example) is an aspect I've never understood. Why cripple the flow of gaming?


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This is meant to 'slow down' the zone pvp, because on US servers there was a problem with 'zerging', ie. instant rushing back to the battle and overwhelm the enemy with sheer numbers (term comes from starcraft). On US servers this is a problem because their pvp zones are much more crowded.

But surely Defiance Zerging would take place instead?

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But surely Defiance Zerging would take place instead?

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Lol, defiance zerging = turkey shooting imo.

No.. make that clay pigeons.

(ps. it'd only work with blasters who are built with defiance in mind. Wouldnt work well with a generic blaster, besides only one AT gets defiance)

I just find it massively frustrating when I'm respawning with no inspirations and Rest still with 2 minutes to go; especially when team-mates are crying out for help. Unless you have a Thermal Corruptor/Empath on Hospital Watch; each death counts you a LOT more; especially when the other side are pressing your gates.

Also rather annoyed at the 'Changes purely for the Americans', but I guess that's the nature of the beast.

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I just find it massively frustrating when I'm respawning with no inspirations and Rest still with 2 minutes to go; especially when team-mates are crying out for help. Unless you have a Thermal Corruptor/Empath on Hospital Watch; each death counts you a LOT more; especially when the other side are pressing your gates.

Also rather annoyed at the 'Changes purely for the Americans', but I guess that's the nature of the beast.

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I understand you perfectly, on the other hand, it would be the same for your enemies should you overpower the zone.

Agreed, but it's invariably frustrating for both sides if one of them is trapped within the Base; as it leads to Martyr attacks. Often Siren's ends up as almost purely Fighting from the Base.

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I know Abu's dominator as such isnt very strong in sirens though. I have fought him many times (he has same sets as my dom btw). Most of pvp zone combat he is SJing away just like I would . If you call that survival then ok.. He beat me in an arena duel because of telekinesis, I admit that. And thumbs up for him for that. Only dominator so far to have done so.

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I have ran into him few times too and I can't really say that I was impressed. And the time he stayed alive after I spot him was measured in seconds. (estimated average 10-15 seconds) Repeatedly.

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I know Abu's dominator as such isnt very strong in sirens though. I have fought him many times (he has same sets as my dom btw). Most of pvp zone combat he is SJing away just like I would . If you call that survival then ok.. He beat me in an arena duel because of telekinesis, I admit that. And thumbs up for him for that. Only dominator so far to have done so.

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I have ran into him few times too and I can't really say that I was impressed. And the time he stayed alive after I spot him was measured in seconds. (estimated average 10-15 seconds) Repeatedly.

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Ill just point out that this is not due to Abu being a bad player, it just reflects the weaknesses of dominators. I didnt want to bash his skills earlier in this thread.