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Somehow tanking has changed thru out the times. Many tankers I meet nowadays don't even carry TAUNT? can U believe that? How the hell are U going to keep aggro and pull'm away from the squishies (exceuse the term here) w/o taunt??
[/ QUOTE ]Ever heard of Chilling Embrace?
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i dont think he was just talking about ice tankers, ive seen even granite tanks without taunt!
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Somehow tanking has changed thru out the times. Many tankers I meet nowadays don't even carry TAUNT? can U believe that? How the hell are U going to keep aggro and pull'm away from the squishies (exceuse the term here) w/o taunt??
[/ QUOTE ]Ever heard of Chilling Embrace?
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i dont think he was just talking about ice tankers, ive seen even granite tanks without taunt!
[/ QUOTE ]To me it seemed he was talking about tankers in general, and just being plain ignorant. Which is enforced by the 'tanks can't kill anything' comment...
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Somehow tanking has changed thru out the times. Many tankers I meet nowadays don't even carry TAUNT? can U believe that? How the hell are U going to keep aggro and pull'm away from the squishies (exceuse the term here) w/o taunt??
[/ QUOTE ]Ever heard of Chilling Embrace?
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i dont think he was just talking about ice tankers, ive seen even granite tanks without taunt!
[/ QUOTE ]To me it seemed he was talking about tankers in general, and just being plain ignorant. Which is enforced by the 'tanks can't kill anything' comment...
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aha yeah i just noticed
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Why do tanks like to herd?
1) it's the one thing they're really good at, don't ask a tank to kill something.... they can't
2) easy aggaro management
3) in case of an INVUL. --> free defense
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ah well, some people will never learn 
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My first tank was lvl50 back on I4 and I played a couple since then, so I'm not the greatest tank, but I tanked a couple hours :P
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don't ask a tank to kill something.... they can't
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Welcome to ED.
My Inv/SS is built for survivability, and he still outdamages my scrapper over short periods of time.
Anything /EM can put out a serious amount of hurt. 
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Somehow tanking has changed thru out the times. Many tankers I meet nowadays don't even carry TAUNT? can U believe that? How the hell are U going to keep aggro and pull'm away from the squishies (exceuse the term here) w/o taunt??
[/ QUOTE ]Ever heard of Chilling Embrace?
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i dont think he was just talking about ice tankers, ive seen even granite tanks without taunt!
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They can get mud pots. All tank primaries get some form of taunt aura.
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Somehow tanking has changed thru out the times. Many tankers I meet nowadays don't even carry TAUNT? can U believe that?
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Been playing since june '04, made my tanker sometime in the fall that year. I didnt get taunt until I respecced it in at level 50.
So the comment of "through the ages" and "nowadays" isn't really valid.
UNION
Officer Cuffz lvl 50 Inv/Nrg Tank
Badge lvl 50 dwarf/human Peacebringer
Dark Air lvl 50 Ice/Cold Corruptor
Ayre lvl 50 Storm/Elec Defender
Total Cat: @Officer Cuffz
"When I say interview, I mean engage in combat and defeat..." -Laura Brunetti, on how to deal with Warriors.
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Somehow tanking has changed thru out the times. Many tankers I meet nowadays don't even carry TAUNT? can U believe that? How the hell are U going to keep aggro and pull'm away from the squishies (exceuse the term here) w/o taunt??
[/ QUOTE ]Ever heard of Chilling Embrace?
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i dont think he was just talking about ice tankers, ive seen even granite tanks without taunt!
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They can get mud pots. All tank primaries get some form of taunt aura.
[/ QUOTE ]Aye. However, I wouldn't recommend the tauntless path for stone, because of the heavy movement restrictions.
Reasons why tanks should like to herd.
1) if foes are gonna get to their mates they have to come thru them, whole idea of tank!
2) Aoe debuffs work better more safely and so plus overall survivability.
3) Aoe damage upon aoe debuffs, can be omg damage.
4) icetanks get to damage over time debuff and a def buff and +end.
5) firetanks get better end return and do the omg dam they need too
5) other ppl get def buff, some a self heal buff, some an end buff.
6) aoe controls are safer to apply and better more aoe effects than just one!
7) multihit dam potential improves greatly.
8) in the case of single target healers they need only worry about one person basically if you also draw cones away from team but only people can save themselves from aoes.
9) stonetanks cant run fast so need to make foes slow too.
10) more of the support side of blasters can more easily come into play in many cases.
reasons to get taunt:
AVs, GMs, EBs serious +lvls and easily maintain a herd over aura taunts capabilities (gauntlet is poo), rage will run out, your about to hibernate, your out of end but who cares your a bag of hitpoints with a break free or running unstoppable, displacement of aoes from team, minimise the chances of pbaoes, ambushes and especially when ya dont really wanna leave a debuffed mob, that idiot blaster, that defender you really dont want to lose but cant get to quick enough, untrained debuffers can actually debuff sooner better as herd come to herdpoint or maybe i am an untrained tank and i am probably latter *so goes away to rethink*.
How did that idiot blaster get in there?
Ah but ya need him a defeated team mate is -dps ergo +fight duration although some ya really rather leave laying down.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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They can get mud pots. All tank primaries get some form of taunt aura.
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I was (briefly) on a team with a granite tank once; who didn't have taunt or mudpots.
But for some reason they also had tough.. which was a bit odd.
elo im snow yeti and im an old skool tanker from when tanks were gods,I WILL NOT TALK ABOUT ED I WILL NOT TALK ABOUT ED,soz my therapist has told me to do this when i get stressed,if a player cant tank ie taunt herd hold the agg and do some damage in the process,then hang up your cape hero,as you completely lost the plot on what a tanks about,if u wanna be experimental with the tank and scrank and stuff thats not a problem,just tell the team your not a stereotypical tank and listen to team tactics before bein a glory boy,as holding a tank title comes hand in hand with the expectation of doin what your toon says on the tin,other than that i love tankin played many ats but tanks are what i always come home too,and if people go all freaky and wanna play a dodgy hand ie holdin a spread herd or blastin an uncontrolled mob before agg is consolidated on the tank well my answer is if you spank it you tank it baby!!
SNOW YETI-50 rock tank.
I never had a tank pre-ED. My 50 tank now feels overpowered, if anything - I've yet to see a mission at his level he can't cope with and bring a team through alive.
If he's this good now, how good was he before ED and the GDN? Unnecessarily so. We can do a fine job with or without ED.
DON'T eat muffins while I'm developing you.
Pants! Turkey Magnates! A man in a box! Rogue AI! Come one, come all, to arc ID 10107 - It's [i]'Not as long as some other arcs'[/i]!
ED has been great for making people more of equal value in teams but i think there is still some way to go.
I do know that rads are substantially better versus AVs, i like to not give a damn cos if a rads were of a different race to a forcefield bubbler then i dont want to be rascist. No player or their powersets should be ignored. I still wouldnt want superior invis on my tank but you should know what i mean.
Different team make ups should require different tactics at the most and the game should be balanced to do exactly that imo.
Having said that many players are still gonna have whatever they can on team so they simply run in and mash keys as though orange numbers is all you need to know.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
The only real problem with tanking is that a lot of people think being able to stand in the middle of a spawn dishing out and taking damage means they're tanking. Aggro management means nothing to a lot of people. Scrapper jumps into spawn; blaster fires at mob; mob isn't taunted; blatser shouts "Rez please".
When I see a blaster trying to tank these days I sometimes pull out my bow and arrow temp power and announce that I'll just do a bit of blasting for a while, or maybe dish out some green insps if they want another defender. The message usually get's through 
Whilst I dont want to see a return to mega-tanks running around whole maps clustering everything in sight, the scarcity of good tanks these days is a depressing thing.
All one can hope for in pick up groups these days is that the tank will take the alpha.
The above observation of a stone tank without mud pots or taunt and tough is reaaly depressing. There is little doubt in my mind that the only consideration that player had was to avoid debt and survive, without giving a hoot about the team.
DDT: Debt dodging tank. Avoid.
There is a time and a place for everything. Ive been duo'd with a dark spines scrapper where i was herding em up and hitting em with Whirling hands and burn whilst he was whipping through them. at one point through the mission he asked if i would let him herd. It was only in the team so if he didnt manage it very well it was no great problem id just get in there with blazing aura and taunt and clean up the mess. As it happened he herded ok and once they had all bunched up nice i want in and took the aggro.
Later that day i was in a tem with two scrappers, two trollers a blaster and a defender. The scrappers were doin two things, they were either running off ahead whilst i was keeping aggro on the last couple of minions or they would wait for the rest of the team to catch them up and then charge in. needless to say at least one squishy was dying every couple of mobs or so. Its only debt right? Its supposed to be fun. however, as a tank its my instict to want to prevent this from happening. as it happens it wasnt all down to the scrappers that this was happening, the trollers were holding them too far apart and the blaster kept using KB's all in all a pretty badly organised bunch. I id manage to actually tank the last few mobs and everything went smoothly, i had to leg it to the next mob and get aggro before the holds kicked in and the scrappers did their suicide run but nobody died for those few mobs and hopefully a lesson was learned.
Problem is that there are too many Solo players taking that attitude into team play. Wanting to show off how great their toon is by taking a mob on their own.
In that team i took jacks advice actually. later on against the hydra i turned off BA and skranked round the outside of mobs whilst the scrappers tried to tank, funnily enough they then realised how much of the aggro i had still been taking even after their suicide runs. REZ PLZ!!! TAUNT PLZ!!!
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DDT: Debt dodging tank. Avoid.
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They could also have been newbies who dont have a clue. Try not to judge by builds only.
i used to get grumpy if im wasnt allowed to herd but these days i just do my best to keep em all taunted and hope for the best
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DDT: Debt dodging tank. Avoid.
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They could also have been newbies who dont have a clue. Try not to judge by builds only.
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I dont. I judge by a mix of build and level. Anything excusable first ten levels. Pretty much anything excusable the next ten two. Liberal flexibity up to level 30. However, I draw the line there. If a level 30 tank hasnt got taunt or taunt aura there simple isnt any explanation other than a strictly solo tank or a DDT.
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i used to get grumpy
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But that was the most lovable thing about ya!!
I remember when i first asked to keep on teaming with ya as my empath and you asking if i found ya style of play boring or somit negative, but no! Thats how i liked it, thats how i wanted to see things done. I personally believe that people should team with likeminded people and we all may differ in attitudes toon to toon or value what another person is trying to do with their toon variably from the viewpoints of our different toons.
Your heart was in trying to be the only one getting hit and thats the "be all" for me as it is HEROICALLY minded.
Look at how my viewpoint may of changed from toon to toon.
Jaqi my emp liked the fact that she didnt have to try and save the world and his mother and her cat with a gimpy heal aura in which she may get held by an aoe hold or aoe'd to defeat trying to use - not good especially as empaths dont dam debuff enemy or self buff sustainably.
Aly would of loved the idea of applying aoe fears and holds before without getting half the mob.
New Dawn would be exactly the same way as Aly, autofire not equalling autodebt and the /dev side being of some value at sensible points making me feel valued.
Katalina my sr scrapper would of probably beaten ya into the Malta/Carnie if ya wanted cos sometimes a type of scrapper simply is better than a type of tanker but "if ya wanted" and that would be with a thought for what the team can deal with and where its better too deal with it.
Every tank should tank on terms they are comfortable with especially because they should normally be most likely the first to drop. Of course you cant save people from themselves and you cant always consolidate mobs by the time some people get stuck in. I used to have to tell a defender not to hover above jaegers but they did anyway and moaned about debt afterwards each time..go figure! But mostly if i havent used f7 i "may" not of done enough.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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DDT: Debt dodging tank. Avoid.
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They could also have been newbies who dont have a clue. Try not to judge by builds only.
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I dont. I judge by a mix of build and level. Anything excusable first ten levels. Pretty much anything excusable the next ten two. Liberal flexibity up to level 30. However, I draw the line there. If a level 30 tank hasnt got taunt or taunt aura there simple isnt any explanation other than a strictly solo tank or a DDT.
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I like selflessness, forethought and heroism, as the levels get higher i can be a bit harder on people, but why i dont know, its a game after all, but a game about playing a hero essentially so it lies there i think. Take the monkey fight club, to me its ok villain side but awful hero side but i am just glad its in pocket d where its heroes and villains, sharkhead for villains and nowhere else. Its like watching a cockfight to me. I am nuts i know but i conceptually Roleplay.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
I find these binds very helpful. You wont have to explain the same principles over and over..
F7 "tell $target, Please do not attack too soon. Wait until I say 'Attack'. Thank you 
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F8 "team When a tanker "herds" enemies he usually pulls them together around a corner, forcing the mobs close together. This makes AoE (Area of Effect) effects MUCH more effective and making a healer's job easier."
F9 "team However, just ONE trigger happy player can ruin it. The tanker goes round a corner and is not in LoS (Line of Sight) of the enemies. This means that if ANY player shoots, ALL mobs will attack that player. WAIT until the tanker says 'Attack!'"
5 "e DontAttack$$e <color yellow><bgcolor red><bordercolor yellow><scale 2>DO NOT ATTACK!"
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Take the monkey fight club, to me its ok villain side but awful hero side but i am just glad its in pocket d where its heroes and villains, sharkhead for villains and nowhere else. Its like watching a cockfight to me. I am nuts i know but i conceptually Roleplay.
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You're not the only one, it sits uneasy with me when I'm hanging out there with a hero. Well, depends on the hero I suppose
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I find these binds very helpful. You wont have to explain the same principles over and over..
F7 "tell $target, Please do not attack too soon. Wait until I say 'Attack'. Thank you "
F8 "team When a tanker "herds" enemies he usually pulls them together around a corner, forcing the mobs close together. This makes AoE (Area of Effect) effects MUCH more effective and making a healer's job easier."
F9 "team However, just ONE trigger happy player can ruin it. The tanker goes round a corner and is not in LoS (Line of Sight) of the enemies. This means that if ANY player shoots, ALL mobs will attack that player. WAIT until the tanker says 'Attack!'"
5 "e DontAttack$$e <color yellow><bgcolor red><bordercolor yellow><scale 2>DO NOT ATTACK!"
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I'd say whilst there is truth in the statements, some people might find them a little overbearing.
I think compromise is the name of the day here. Tankers can do only what the team will allow them to do and if they don't realise that effective tanking can make the team much safer, then that is their choice.
Also, waiting for the tanker to 'herd' these days I've found is questionable. I'm all for momentum, moving from mob to mob in safety and speed without pauses between mobs.
In fact the only time these days I would pause before a mob would be to split close groups of mobs to avoid aggroing more than the team can handle.
So many tankers trying to aggro more than the aggro cap - its painful to watch. its not what YOU the tanker can handle, its what the rest of the TEAM can handle that is important. Don't go trying to aggro mmore than the team can effectively handle. Its pointless and over showy and serves no purpose.
It makes me feel old to watch some of the stone tankers out there with granite armour who have conlcuded that becasue they don't appear to take much damage, then they are great tankers. Others in teams I've been in seem to share the same logic.
I measure the effectiveness of a tanker on the safety that the rest of the team can act, on the control of the mobs, decsiveness and unselfless play.
I agree with everything Spacedog has said and this i quote:
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Also, waiting for the tanker to 'herd' these days I've found is questionable. I'm all for momentum, moving from mob to mob in safety and speed without pauses between mobs.
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This method of herding i do on my brute, fury is kept sky high and villains are often that much more resilient due to so much shielding. COV doesnt need an actual tanker and no one needs to care as much as we are villains who are accoladed for our carefree playstyle.
What would be nice is to get this method up playing a tanker without compromises. Its a tanks job to take damage, staying to the end or near enough end of a fight before going onto the next group due to a caring heroic mindedness and need, even from the aspect of not wanting the team or some members of to arrive to your aid too late in the next group. Often as a tanker i have to request the same things over and over and over to make play safe, if i never had too i could move at better speed. The fact that you have to keep telling players repeatedly or requesting a buff as the one you have is dropping because if you dont you wont get one thus slows the game. The pace of getting through a mission without a defeat (which is aim) is often down to the whole team. However i sometimes like to chat alot.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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Somehow tanking has changed thru out the times. Many tankers I meet nowadays don't even carry TAUNT? can U believe that? How the hell are U going to keep aggro and pull'm away from the squishies (exceuse the term here) w/o taunt??
[/ QUOTE ]Ever heard of Chilling Embrace?