SpaceDog_EU

I prefer a mobile tanker any day to play with - one that can jump around to consolidate aggro, pick up loose strays and juggle spawns if required. I find a granite armored tanker to be a little on the too slow side which thats doesn't allows this as easily, which doesn't suit my playstyle, which is probably why my stone tanker sits on lvl 42 and has done so for months..

Go DM/SR - you won't regret it - best toon I've played in a long time

Nice Vid

My experience whilst playing -

MA/REEGEN - great soloist - not as great on teams but fancy animations

Spines/DA - really the most damaging scrapper I've played - but really end heavy and shines best in big mobs with buffs from a support toon

BS/REGEN - good damage output - but really slow animations sort of take some of the fun away

DM/SR - the most fun toon (Period) I have played so far - its the only lvl 50 that sees activity after 50 - great solo, great team toon

...but as has been pointed out, its the fun you get from the scrapper that makes it good, rather than their powers.

Out of interest, what is the set like to play? It looks like a 'chaos' controller with damage. I have to say I haven't seen many fire/storms around myself either.

I've got to add, it looks like a fun set to play with great visual effects.

Hmm. On my regen I don't have *i think* storm kick' instead of thunder kick. (I only have one of them in any event). One of them does 'minor damage' if i recall. Rather get rid of the minor damage one than CAK.

I'd think on those lines and consider getting rid of one of them for Dull pain..

And i'd agree with getting rid of stealth.

I'd agree with that. Keep Tough for the resistance - 3 slot with dmg res + 1 end redux (What I got in mine. Weave isn't worth it imo (Although saying that I might get it as my lvl 49 power)

You do notice the difference with Tough. Just try taking a hit from a single mob, with and without it - its a noticeable and worthwhile difference that makes you a more solid and self sufficent toon.

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The extra powers, Instant healing, Mog, Quick recovery, resiliance, fast healing and revive, are optional powers to varying degrees.

[/ QUOTE ] Since when is tier 1 secondary power optional?

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.....ok, so its the first power, you got me

But if it were optional, I'd be right

I would say that Regen is a far more user friendly secondary, at least in the earlier levels. With intergration, dull pain and reconstruction, you're ready to roll. The extra powers, Instant healing, Mog, Quick recovery, resiliance, fast healing and revive, are optional powers to varying degrees.

In comparison, SR I've found, needs the combination of sheilds, both passive and toggle to really benefit, meaning that - if you decide to go this route - the real benefits with SR are availble a little later. Of course, Elude is a great power in itself - far and above Mog imo. Also with the click power (Practised brawler) I've found to be a bit of an irritation together with the lack of a heal.

Some people swear by SR's benefits, but I've found it problematic, wanting to be the best scrapper that I can be, whilst not compromising on my attacks has meant that I've taken all the shields minus quickness (which I plan to get at a later date) and at level 39 my SR scraper is only starting to come together. In comparison, My Regen scrapper was ready as soon as I got Integration.

In short, for easier play intially - go regen

For my nbuild i focused on the buffing powers of human form .i.e sunless mire, stygian circle, eclispe - then the status effects i.e hold, disorients.

With WSs, you can build something that works for you, depending on what you like doing, you can focus on control, blasting and tanking - or all three.

Don't worry about being confused and having to respec - its a part of being a WS Experiment and try out what works.

Theres some decent guides around giving advice on what the powers do. But if you keep the nova form, then I'd suggest you do slot it well, perhaps concerntrating on the aoe blasts before you start getting more slots.

Maybe you could post your build so that others could advise you on what to go for, once you're sure about what you want to do.

Certainly its viable, but missing out on the nova form I imagine would reduce a lot of damage output.

Remember that once you have Eclipse, a lot of the squishy issues that Nova form has - disappears/is overcome. So nova becomes more than a power to get you through the early levels.

With the WS, you can pretty much create what suits your play - if its workable for you.

However - a couple of bits and pieces that I spotted -

Didn't see any Sunless Mire anywhere (I'm writing this late so I might have overlooked it) but its a great power that boosts your dmg output - similar to the Dark Melle scrapper build up power

The order of Quasar, Stygian Return and Extracted Essence/Dark Extraction?

Extracted essence is the WS pet - and they are pretty cool (Its possible to have more than one out at a time with the right slotting) and they can take some of the aggro you will get. I took them as early as possible (lvl 32 I think) and slotted them up asap.

Went Quasar after that at lvl 35

Stygian return has its uses, but its not my sort of thing (Although its in my build later on - 40s) after I got eclipse at 38

Apart from that - theres really nothing for me to add - you will be the best judge of what works - and I think you wouldn't be a proper Warshade unless you underwent a couple of respecs (at least) to change things that didn't work out the way you expected them to

As a three-form, power picks and slotting even now with ED will always be tricky and if you get a great build first time - I salute you - you'd deserve a medal

Editark Extraction - can't remember what that is or confused with Extracted Essence (its late that my excuse)

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I find these binds very helpful. You wont have to explain the same principles over and over..

F7 "tell $target, Please do not attack too soon. Wait until I say 'Attack'. Thank you "

F8 "team When a tanker "herds" enemies he usually pulls them together around a corner, forcing the mobs close together. This makes AoE (Area of Effect) effects MUCH more effective and making a healer's job easier."

F9 "team However, just ONE trigger happy player can ruin it. The tanker goes round a corner and is not in LoS (Line of Sight) of the enemies. This means that if ANY player shoots, ALL mobs will attack that player. WAIT until the tanker says 'Attack!'"

5 "e DontAttack$$e <color yellow><bgcolor red><bordercolor yellow><scale 2>DO NOT ATTACK!"

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I'd say whilst there is truth in the statements, some people might find them a little overbearing.

I think compromise is the name of the day here. Tankers can do only what the team will allow them to do and if they don't realise that effective tanking can make the team much safer, then that is their choice.

Also, waiting for the tanker to 'herd' these days I've found is questionable. I'm all for momentum, moving from mob to mob in safety and speed without pauses between mobs.

In fact the only time these days I would pause before a mob would be to split close groups of mobs to avoid aggroing more than the team can handle.

So many tankers trying to aggro more than the aggro cap - its painful to watch. its not what YOU the tanker can handle, its what the rest of the TEAM can handle that is important. Don't go trying to aggro mmore than the team can effectively handle. Its pointless and over showy and serves no purpose.

It makes me feel old to watch some of the stone tankers out there with granite armour who have conlcuded that becasue they don't appear to take much damage, then they are great tankers. Others in teams I've been in seem to share the same logic.

I measure the effectiveness of a tanker on the safety that the rest of the team can act, on the control of the mobs, decsiveness and unselfless play.

Just a brief glance here and based on my fire/ice tanker build ..

Burn, I've slotted 3 dmg, 3 recharge - brings it up often - however with fire melle you have other dmg tools at your disposal so I'm assuming burn isn't as important - but its nice with 3 rehcharge nevertheless.

I have hasten. Everything is up sooner - not sure how you would fit it in, but when your in the thick of things its valuable and makes healing flames even more helpful than it is (After the changes).

Just on a final note - I see there are a lot of attack powers there and while consume is helpful with stamina - I think end may be a problem on occasions. Either putting some end redux in more of those attacks or dropping some altogether and getting some more shields like getting tough and weave (I have these in my build) - is an option I'd consider.

After a lot of thought, I've decided to go to the fighting pool and hasten rather than the med pool - i think ice/fire will be a great pve tanker.

I wouldn't worry about the bad luck part with the occasional insp , hasten, horfrost together with tough and weave - I don't think you'd have much to worry about

In addition the dmg of fire + EA to keep endurance high will add to the mobs being arrested quicker which means you'll take less damage in the long run.

Although my ice tanker is only lvl 29 at the moment, I'd say that its on par with my Fire tanker. This is before I work tough and weave into the build or have Hibernate.

Also, I'd say that the secondary will have some effect on the damage taken, espcially with ice patch for example.

In addition, the type of playstyle that you envisage will effect the amount of damage you will be taking; solo build, pvp, pve - are you taking on multiple mobs/herding for a team or solo 'scranking'.

Obviously with a defense based tanker with a run of bad 'luck', things can go pearshaped, although this hasn't happened to me yet.

Ice tankers like any tankers effectiveness imo are what you make them and how you use them.

Experiences as a consequnce may vary. For me though, I haven't had a problem with them.

I remember my first toon - an nrg/nrg blaster. Like you, I smile when I think back upon the power choices I made - how I was searching around for lvl 20 Training enhancements (Didn't know anything about DOS and SOs) and when I did, finding the shops where they were sold was another pain (Weren't clearly marked on the map as they are now)

Knowing what I know now, I'm sure he would be pretty cool - but in a moment of madness (possibly intermingled with embarrasment), I deleted him at level 20 (Not knowing about respec trials at the time..)

I've learnt from that and now never delete a toon higher than level 10. My oldest toons (Booty and Peace) are now in their early 40s and have undergone numerous respecs as I learn more about each powerset and their abilities.

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I'm not a powerleveller, or lazy... but I need some advice....

I want to roll up a defender, and I want to roll up a GOOD one.

Assuming there would be *one* defender in a group, and my team is facing the toughest parts of the game (Trials, Task Forces, Archvillains, fighting against +5's), which AT is going to provide the best chance of survival and success for me and my team?

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The OP is certainly talking about a Defender, although I agree that to 'provide the best chance of survival and success for me and my team' it doesn't have to be a Defender.

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The issue as you point out in your post is the level of the mobs he may be facing - up to +5s, which in my eyes means a versatile toon. To be honest most, if not all of the defender sets can provide effective team support when playing up to +2s.

Its when you start going further into the unsked realms of +5s that it may be an idea to consider other ATs to provide the same level of security. As, mentioned, in my experience, both tanker and controllers in many cases are more effective if playing at that stretched difficulty level.

Some of this is out of personal preference, but my view is for example powers such as earthquake, iceslick etc tagged on to a controller secondary such as FF, Emp, Rad - offers that much more when against +5s as they don't require an accuracy check. The mobs just bounce up and down Incidently, I was recently in a PuG team against +5s playing a fire/kin and used bonfire (What the hell I thought, it +5s!) - much to my surprise the mobs bounced up and down instead of knocked back unable to hit anyone - just 1 recharge in that power and it turned out to be the teams strongest.

Which is why I asked whether it *had* to be a defender given the objectives set out by the OP.

I'm having second thoughts about my original suggestion.

If you're trying to create a toon that will basically make sure that...

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Assuming there would be *one* defender in a group, and my team is facing the toughest parts of the game (Trials, Task Forces, Archvillains, fighting against +5's), which AT is going to provide the best chance of survival and success for me and my team?

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Which AT? I wouldn't say a defender first to be honest, probably a controller of some sort or a tanker. (I know you may have meant which powersets), but this got me thinking... defenders - no matter what it may have said in the original game package - have a part to play but this is not exclusive to them in protecting the team. Other ATs do it just as well.

Making sure teams survive that would otherwise be wiped out by the efforts of a single toon, I view as unfair; why should, you, I or anyone else put in more effort for the same xp? Taking resonpsiblity for a PuG team fighting +5s as a defender could be strenous

An empath on a poor team could do this with lots of hard work - but I'd say a controller or a tanker could do it easier. And most importantly for me, by putting in the same effort that everyone else is, no more no less

If someone said to me they want me to join one of their TFs, Trials or whatever - and bring one of my toons along with the intention of making the team safer - I'd probably bring my Earth/Storm controller - she doesn't have a heal, didn't bother with 02 Boost - but brings with its powers considerable safety to the rest of the team.

Does it *have* to be a defender?

Something to consider.

I think it really depends on the team make up. Empaths are good at making sure everything is running smoothly - if properly played, however they can be boring especially in teams where the heals are not needed.

In such teams pretty much every other defender set is useful and in many cases have more to offer than the empath set.
Personal preference is Kinetics, which is a fun set with never a dull moment but not really sutiable for some team make ups, ones in which the empath will do well in.

The other sets all have strong points and its a difficult one to call as they all offer tools to keep a team safe.

I wonder if the differences of opinion in this area are due to the changes that have happended post ED.

I mention this becasue when I first started, Tankers in particular were Gods, almost nothing could touch them and if they died, it was due to a mistake i.e not clicking on a shield etc

Tankers were invaluable to most teams by fulfilling a vital role; protecting the rest of the team by consilodating ALL aggro.

Changes have occured that have meant this is less likley to happen except with the most attentive and skilled tanker; not overherding, corner pullng, spacial awareness and a sense of responsibilty to their team mates.

Tankers are now less likley to fulfil those old roles as quite simply, there are an excess of slots to go around now, no longer needed to 6 slot shields - why not put some in the secondary pool and slot up attacks. Now I have slotted attacks, why not use them from time to time.

Indeed, having your shields properly slotted around the 20s, sometimes earlier and also having an attack chain slotted engenders a playstyle which in an earlier age might have been termed as scranking, but has, (as has been mentioned previously in another post) become almost universally utilised and so in effect has become the norm.

Fair enough.

I used to hold the view that a tanker's role is what it was before, but after teaming with multiple tankers over recent months, the tankers that I would desscribe as fulfilling my expectations of tanking has in the majority fallen to the wayside and have become relics of a bygone age. I count myself as one of them when I play on my tanker as I can conceive of no other way to play them.

I guess then, Tankers have evolved - most of those I have encountered do their own thing in their own way and have a marginal impact upon the team's effectiveness. I've had to accept that or otherwise I'll be tearing my hair out and muttering under my breath how awful such and such tank is.

In addition, its telling how much tankers roles have changed as when playing as a tanker, some teams do not appreciate how much safer they can be if the tanker has been given time to consilodate aggro and instead firing off as the tanker is pulling etc

I've adjusted my playstyle in some cases and if the tanker does not tank in the way I expect them to, then my toon will have to play differently, withdrawing when necessary, avoiding aggro inducing attacks or having ways to avoid return fire etc

Perosnally, I think its pointless to harp on how a player should do this, or do that as things have moved on, not necessarily in all aspects for the better, but we have to adjust and make do with the situation as it is, rather than thinking we can change it beyond an indiviual level, such as rolling a tanker and playing it 'old skool stylie'

Yep, as Shannon says - the slots are there. With a kin the +recharge and +end gives you some options. On my Spines/Dark I have End redux instead of recharge in attacks and one in all shields.

Something to consider.

As you obtain toggles etc, you'll notice which ones will need attention and can make alterations as required.

Ive a 42 Earth/Storm and I have to say that the control available is immense. Yes, you don't do a lot of damage and its probably not worth taking the heal.

In regards to end usage - no, I haven't found the end use to be overly considerable at all. Often, with the great controls at your disposal, its not necessary to throw everything at the mobs, but just use a couple of powers.

This for me, is a team build - not to say that it can't solo - but it will be slow, especially without the pet - who is insanely slow anyway
As a team build you are setting up the mobs to be destroyed and really - as an earth/storm - thats a piece of cake.

Personally, the only con is the lack of damage - but as a team build that shouldn't matter.
I run hasten on my earth/storm and she doesn't encounter any end issues beyond what I would expect. Certainly not excessive imo.

I'd either go Spines/regen or Spines/Drk - both good aoe capability.

Support I'd say a controller with /kin for the faster recharge time on attacks with SB( for the scrapper) and SP for yourself. However, I'd stongly suggest the spines/regen take Quills and Quills and Death Shroud for the spines/drk to obtain and maintain aggro.

Possibly Fire/kin for support and dmg later on - in the early twenties in the game I suspect the both of you would be avery powerful combination.

In short, you have +end, +recharge AOE damage, containmant dmg - heals, debuffs, aggro control, more dmg and pets.

Sounds good to me

I give advice (this is unsolicited advice, mind) only when its painfully obvious that the individual is suffering from the team's expectations and their own subsequent feelings of inadeqaucy.

Why do I keep on getting knocked back?
Why do I keep on getting mezzed?


Theres nothing wrong in sharing some inforamtion - as long as its not;'choose this', or 'choose that'... But more of 'this power does this', or 'this power does that'. Some people won't know the benefits of some powers as well as others and thats fair enough.

What is wrong is to dictate power choices.

Give people the tools and inforamtion to make an informed decision.