I would say that Regen is a far more user friendly secondary, at least in the earlier levels. With intergration, dull pain and reconstruction, you're ready to roll. The extra powers, Instant healing, Mog, Quick recovery, resiliance, fast healing and revive, are optional powers to varying degrees.
In comparison, SR I've found, needs the combination of sheilds, both passive and toggle to really benefit, meaning that - if you decide to go this route - the real benefits with SR are availble a little later. Of course, Elude is a great power in itself - far and above Mog imo. Also with the click power (Practised brawler) I've found to be a bit of an irritation together with the lack of a heal.
Some people swear by SR's benefits, but I've found it problematic, wanting to be the best scrapper that I can be, whilst not compromising on my attacks has meant that I've taken all the shields minus quickness (which I plan to get at a later date) and at level 39 my SR scraper is only starting to come together. In comparison, My Regen scrapper was ready as soon as I got Integration.
In short, for easier play intially - go regen 
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The extra powers, Instant healing, Mog, Quick recovery, resiliance, fast healing and revive, are optional powers to varying degrees.
[/ QUOTE ] Since when is tier 1 secondary power optional? 
There's some trick in your question there MaX, I just know it.
Until the late 30s and early 40s (post int) regens only really die if they make a mistake. SR always has the tohit rolls and can die at any time. 30-35 is painful with SR, 35 onwards is a delight
"Well, they found my diary today.
They were appropriately appalled
at the discovery of the eight victims
They're now putting it all together.
Women wrapped in silk
with one leg missing
Eight legs, one body, silk,
spider, brilliant!"
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The extra powers, Instant healing, Mog, Quick recovery, resiliance, fast healing and revive, are optional powers to varying degrees.
[/ QUOTE ] Since when is tier 1 secondary power optional?
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.....ok, so its the first power, you got me 
But if it were optional, I'd be right
Another thing to factor is how they scale with damage mitigation.
A regen scrapper "mitagetes" damage by healing it. It doesnt matter how much damage/attacks comes his way, he or she will mitigate x hit points no matter if it a single minion flailing away, or an enitre 8 man mob.
A SR scrapper mitigates a proportion of the incoming damage. This is very low in the case of a single minion, and very high (far far higher than the regen) in the case of a 8 team spawn (which, to be fair, neither scrapper would survive unless heavy buffs/debuffs are flying around).
This is probably the main difference. Flat damage mitigation for regen, Proportional damage mitigation for SR.
Which probably explains why /Regen is the soloists or duoists choice - you get flat damage mitigation and dont need to hang around to heal up.
However, in a moderate or big team, /SR is better than /Regen in terms of mathematics. (Id say they are about the same in small teams). If said scrapper suddenly gets a heap of aggro, they are likely to survive longer than regen scrapper (mathematically).
The only other thing Id point out is the /defence has occassional advantages. For instance, a high defence toon is very useful vs Malta Sappers, or a load of CoT spectres (you want to avoid those stacked accuracy debuffs).
Concept aside, Id definately say /Regen is much superior as a solo secondary. In larger teams, /SR would be better (although /INvun and /Dark are progressively better still due to AoE effects).
Regen is far better per mob scale up than SR, the more in mob the worse SR will perform, the damage mitigation mathamatically is very flawed when in mobs, i have used a kat/regen and a kat/SR both 50, on a mob size of 4 heroes set to unyielding regen can take them down, a SR will struggle, as regardless of its ability to not get it, when it does it gets hit for full amount which regen doesnt if you take and slot resiliance, also SR has no ability to self heal in its SR power pool. SR works per critter not per mob, so the more attacking you at same time the more you will get it more.
In conclusion SR is best for solo and Regen best for solo and mobs
@Blast
I disagree, SR will have the same chance to get hit regardless of how many mobs are attacking it.
Though it will probably be getting hit faster and more often with more mobs, the same percentage of overall hits will get through. Regen simply works better against higher accuracy critters, or those with lower spike damage.
Perhaps the reason why you're seeing your kat/regen do better than your kat/sr is due to katana's +def in Divine Avalanche, not your secondary?
(High Defense + Regen) > (High Defence + SR)
Take "Aid self" on your SR and watch your survivability skyrocket.
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Though it will probably be getting hit faster and more often with more mobs, the same percentage of overall hits will get through. Regen simply works better against higher accuracy critters, or those with lower spike damage.
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SR doesnt scale per mob it scales per critter so the more crits in mobs the higher chance you have to get hit, even thou each crit has the same chance to hit you the more in mob the more you will be hit.
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Perhaps the reason why you're seeing your kat/regen do better than your kat/sr is due to katana's +def in Divine Avalanche, not your secondary?
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Have it on my SR and its on the regen and its very handy and ups SR survivability a fair whack, however i did say this is solely going on SR/regen secondary no buffs from primary.
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Take "Aid self" on your SR and watch your survivability skyrocket.
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I did say in my post that this is based on SR/regen only using there secondaries, i have aid self on my SR helps, but im making a point of pitting them against each other for wot the secondaries are not wot powers can be used to equal them out.
What I think in the end is that Regen has a much higher rate of surviving just using its own secondary powers than that of a SR with the same mob size/enemy/lvl but thats just personal preference from wot i have played.
@Blast
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SR doesnt scale per mob it scales per critter so the more crits in mobs the higher chance you have to get hit, even thou each crit has the same chance to hit you the more in mob the more you will be hit.
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I'm not sure what you're saying here...
To my knowledge, SR is a straight defence% increase to Melee, Ranged and AOE.
That essentially means that for every attack aimed at you, you have a good chance of dodging it. Factoring in the scaling damage resistance from the passives, you can also get up to 60% damage resistance to everything when at low HP.
Consider a Boss, hitting you for 500 damage with every attack. Now consider 5 minions, each hitting you for 100 damage with every attack. Same damage mitigation, except that a boss will have a slightly better chance to hit you due to a "rank accuracy bonus".
ON AVERAGE OVER TIME you will take identical damage, but in practice the Boss could concievably not hit you until you kill him, whereas the minions will probably be steadily hitting you at a much lower rate. Attacks also play a major factor, since you can keep a single boss knocked down/mezzed more easily than 5 minions.
There's a "Sustained Damage Comparison" tool knocking about that compares toons in different scenarios.
Say:
Scrapper (R)egen heals 100hp damage per minute.
Scrapper (S)uper reflexes avoids 50% of incoming damage.
Situation 1: Scrapper faces an average of 100 damage in minute (note: average)
Scrapper R ends minute with full damage mitigation: 0 hp taken.
Scrapper S ends with 50 hp damage mitigation: 50 hp taken.
Situation 2:
Scrapper faces 1000 average damage in minute (because of more enemies and aggro).
Scrapper (R) takes full damage, ends up with effectively 900hp damage.
Scrapper (S) takes 500 damage, ends up effectively at 500 damage at end of round.
This is the difference between the "flat" damage mitigation of regen, and the "proportional" damage mitigation of defence and resistance.
This is why, when facing a lot of aggro (such as in a big team), a Super Reflex scrapper will be more efficient at mitigating damage than will a Regen.
Theres the maths as far as I see it. Please correct if appropriate.
I should add that one can never extrapolate to all possible situations in CoH (e.g. buffs, debuffs, primarys, etc), but in principle we are still left with the flat "mitigation" of heals, and the proportional "mitigation" of resistance and defence. The same concepts apply to an empath defender vs a forcefield/sonic defender.
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The same concepts apply to an empath defender vs a forcefield/sonic defender.
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Agree completely. It's why many such defenders will take pains to increase their capacities for both flat and proportional (or "situational") damage mitigation.
Just as a /Regen will greatly benefit from taking Parry/DA and a /SR will benefit from taking "Aid Self", a Forcefielder or Sonic can take the Medicine Pool and an Empath can heavily slot up Fortitude for +defense.
And there are significant problems with balancing because of the discrepancy between flat and proportional damage mitigation. For instance, /Regen becomes overpowered in solo or 1 on 1 PvP play because of it (and underpowered in large teams or group PvP when the other 8 players all gang up on you).
There is an additional problem with level scaling. From a healer or regen's points of view, it makes no difference if you are facing a +2 or -2 enemy - your damage mitigation is the same. However, from the perspective of resistance / defence, you gain more damage mitigation the higher the enemy is.
This might be one reason that empaths / heals are so popular at lower levels - when you are mainly fighting even cons or +1s. However, at high levels when you regularly fight +2s or even +3s, defence and resistance become relatively more effective tools at damage mitigations. Empaths, for instance, become more valued for fortitude and adrenaline boost at this point, IMO.
Yeah. I've not heard many teams above level 30ish say "We need an empath" unless fighting Psionic mobs.
It's still all-too-common in the Hollows though! 
The other thing to take into account is the stretch of AVs in the 40s... my /regen felt very squishy when in melee range of them (he managed but it was tricky) but I'd bet a SR could survive with minimal support.
Thanks for the help, glad to see it provoked debate. In case anyone's interested I went regen in the end. The character it's on is part of a regular team and uses MA as a primary. Since the team has a tank and fire blaster and MA has only 1 aoe, I reckon I shouldn't have to worry about getting too much aggro and overstretching my regen, plus i do like the lack of downtime.
Sounds fair enough, but bare in mind that, at least for PvE, AoE rule the roost (note exception below).
MA/Regen is the perfect solo toon. Only one AoE, and a secondary that has no AoE and mainly "Flat" damage mitigation.
The bigger the team, the less powerful single target powers get, and the more powerful AoE get. In a 3 man team, its probably the size where neither AoE or single target really have the edge. If it gets larger, you probably start to loose relative effectiveness.
Exception: Arch-Villains (and to a lesser extent Elite Bosses). In this case, single target DAMAGE/DEBUFFS/HOLDS are superior to its AoE version. AoE Buffs and heals still surpass single target versions (at least in a reasonably big team, which is a practical certainty if you are facing an Arch Villian).
My MA/Regen scrapper is level 25. I only play for a bit of light fun when im semi-afk and cant commit to teams. I can assure you they are the best solo toon I have ever played by far. However, I would also be honest and say they would be pretty rubbish for big teams.
If you are regularly teaming with a fire blaster and tank, then Im not sure its the best choice, tbh. In teams, downtime is not normally an issue as you normally have someone who can heal, and in any case the tank should be most worried about this.
If you are set on /Regen, you might want to consider a secondary like Claws or Broadsword, which have at least a few AoE in them. If you are going to be regularly teaming, MA/Regen would personally be my last choice.
Consider something like /Dark armour for instance. If you fight next to the tank, you wont be taking much damage anyway. And /Dark would have an AoE disorientate, an AoE damage, and an AoE fear/accuracy debuff - all stuff that a tank would greatly appreciate as it adds to his survivability (and to your kill rate). A tank gets diddly squat from a /regen standing next to it - and the scrapper only gets to heal AoE damage which isnt that much.
Anyway, go with concept first.
It's an old debate not to be rehashed here, but I disagree with Cog on the "single target = bad for teams" idea.
I wouldn't worry too much about underperforming, especially considering that you have a fire blaster in your group already and the fact that a Regen with Quick recovery can operate at "full damage output" constantly without ever looking at their blue bar.
Just make sure to concentrate your fire on the Bosses and LTs and leave the minions to the Blaster AOEs... the mobs should all fall quickly enough. And you'll be having a barrel of fun, which is the main thing!!
Yep, not worth a debate really. Especially for a 3 man team and a fire blaster - not much in it at all!.
Id still say that from the TANKS point of view (providing he/she is a solid aggro grabber), he/she would prefer you to be /dark than /regen, for reasons given above.
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go with concept first.
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When i first saw this post that was my first thought. People tend to be looking to be number 1 at something or getting something good for them or others as opposed to entering game with an idea to play as a superhero and run with it.
I have 50 toons with my altaholism (nearly 13*50's but 5 actual and so many so called gimped builds cos of the concepts i fancied (usually synergistic) but by playing them i learn about them and some of them have some lovely surprises. Playing so many toons makes me realise how much is actually ignored. For example some people forget they have a trick archer and not some kind of healer and play in a way thats ineffective for a trick archer to really benefit them (debuffs on unaggroed bring aggro to the trick archer who fai iirc incidentally isnt a tank , tank maging plus levels is possible but not with certain random movements of people).
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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Yeah. I've not heard many teams above level 30ish say "We need an empath" unless fighting Psionic mobs.
It's still all-too-common in the Hollows though!
The other thing to take into account is the stretch of AVs in the 40s... my /regen felt very squishy when in melee range of them (he managed but it was tricky) but I'd bet a SR could survive with minimal support.
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Trouble with SR vs AVs is being two shot, when the streak breaker kicks in. Of course now I have Aid Self and I didn't at the time. The only AV where I think I had more trouble than the regen I Duo'd with 40+ was Countess Crey, cause of bad luck only her high damage attack would hit me.
I do have a DM/Regen at 35 as well, and yeah the general survivability is higher. I found DM/SR to be more exicitng to play though and retired the regen. I also like the ability to stand infront of AVs and laugh as they flail wildly, but that's probably a personality flaw
"Well, they found my diary today.
They were appropriately appalled
at the discovery of the eight victims
They're now putting it all together.
Women wrapped in silk
with one leg missing
Eight legs, one body, silk,
spider, brilliant!"
[ QUOTE ]
Say:
Scrapper (R)egen heals 100hp damage per minute.
Scrapper (S)uper reflexes avoids 50% of incoming damage.
Situation 1: Scrapper faces an average of 100 damage in minute (note: average)
Scrapper R ends minute with full damage mitigation: 0 hp taken.
Scrapper S ends with 50 hp damage mitigation: 50 hp taken.
Situation 2:
Scrapper faces 1000 average damage in minute (because of more enemies and aggro).
Scrapper (R) takes full damage, ends up with effectively 900hp damage.
Scrapper (S) takes 500 damage, ends up effectively at 500 damage at end of round.
This is the difference between the "flat" damage mitigation of regen, and the "proportional" damage mitigation of defence and resistance.
This is why, when facing a lot of aggro (such as in a big team), a Super Reflex scrapper will be more efficient at mitigating damage than will a Regen.
Theres the maths as far as I see it. Please correct if appropriate.
I should add that one can never extrapolate to all possible situations in CoH (e.g. buffs, debuffs, primarys, etc), but in principle we are still left with the flat "mitigation" of heals, and the proportional "mitigation" of resistance and defence. The same concepts apply to an empath defender vs a forcefield/sonic defender.
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Just a point but if the regen heals 100 hp in that minute, are'nt you also forgeting that he will also get off two recontructions in that time, thus eliminating even more incoming damage, and also possibly using Dull pain, I know when i solo mine (currently 45), I usually use Dull pain 1st after the initial enemy attacks then switch to recon and if things are going bad might use IH, just a thought as your example only used flat regen rate vrs almost full defence and ignored the other heals regen brings with it on top of Fast Healing and intergration
The "heals 100" bit could be concieved to be a combination of clickyheals and natural health regeneration.
The overall point was that regen can only ever mitigate a certain level of damage (the total amount of regen, and clickyheals + dull pain +MaxHP) because unlike SR it does not actually reduce the amount of incoming damage, it "absorbs" it instead.
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The "heals 100" bit could be concieved to be a combination of clickyheals and natural health regeneration.
The overall point was that regen can only ever mitigate a certain level of damage (the total amount of regen, and clickyheals + dull pain +MaxHP) because unlike SR it does not actually reduce the amount of incoming damage, it "absorbs" it instead.
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Exactly.
By "Heals" I was including all things like reconstruction/dull pain, etc. The figures are purely hypothetical to show the difference between "flat" and "proportional" damage "mitgation". Obviously the regen scrapper may have some proportional damage mitigation in terms of tough or resiliance, and the SR scrapper will have a natural regen rate possibly augmented by health power.
Ah, I see what you mean. SR always has that higher possibility to not die, and is more chance based. Regen, however, is less chance based. (However, all secondaries are like that due to enemy base tohitt being around 50% or so)
Well thats another point, but its not really about chance vs non-chance. For instance Resistance has the advantage over Defence in being more predicatble in damage mitigation, like Regen.
The difference is that Resistance and Defence reduce a PROPORTION of incoming damage - meaning that the more incoming damage there is, the more damage they reduce.
Regen has a flat rate of HP recovery irresepective of what situation they are in. It therefore doesent matter if nobody is attacking them or everybody is... their damage mitigation is the same.. or "FLAT".
How do SR and Regen differ in play? I know one stops you being hit as much and one heals the damage you do take, but what are they like to actually live with?