What I've found extremely useful lately is trusting the rest of the team to be able to take care of the last few enemies by themselves - and run into the next enemy group while there are still some left in from the previous one. The fights are against smaller groups than if you herd a nice roomful, but you have better control over your teammates by keeping them busy.
ie. Non-stop action for everyone and at least the other guys don't manage to screw things up so much. 
Sure, the defenders will whinge on the "everyone gather for RA" being impossible with the "insane tank" running forward all the time, but the rate people die decreases a lot when you are the forerunner.
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Agreed, I do that all the time even at low levels *if* the team can keep up without deaths. There's often one or two people griping about "end break please", but everyone learn to manage their end just fine and no pause = more fun and exp.
Stacked aoes by the team on tightly packed mobs saves on endurance, increases team survivability and lowers fight duration but i aim to play a bodyguard not a sheepdog so most often i dont run off for the next herd whilst people are still fighting.
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people dont understand the phrase "Herding to here stay put and dont attack till i say Ready!" then i get annoyed.
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Your being ignored as a player and as an AT that tries to consolidate taunt control but I also see tankers do it all the time to other powersets.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Oh absolutely, I know that other AT's do have some trouble fulfilling their "Cookie Cut" Role. The amount of time when as a defender ive been griped at for not attacking directly when ive been concentrating on buffing/debuffing, or times when a mind troller has used confuse and everyone goes straight to attack the confused one is laughable.
I find that the fore-reunner technique does work, but i also find that, even as a tank, team support becomes very important, especially against mobs of +3 or higher. and the crossroads scenario always causes a giggle. Debt is not something i fear, like some people i have teamed with recently who consider death a sin worse then murder. You come to a crossroad part of a map. Being the tank you run ahead, expecting your team mates to do the common sense thing and follow behind, you aggro a mob, and tada!! no team in sight. theyve all buggered off the other way and now your in the poo cos you have +3's panning your head in whilst the oh so brave scrapper aggros a room full of baddies and then leads them straight to the squishies hoping to catch the next exciting installment of heal aura.
People actually avoid this game due to the type of players playing it.
I'd of left the team.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
It's been like this for as long as I can remember.
People are impatient and generally don't want to wait for a tank to "pull herd" on every mob. Generally if the tank has decent aggro control it's easy enough to cope with this mentality, mobs normally come "pre herded" to an extent anyway so you can jump into the middle of most mobs and start AOEing and taunt the few stragglers that are further away. My Peacebringer managed this fine with Antagonise and Dwarf Flare, and my Inv/SS tanker is currently adopting this approach with Footstomp, Invincibility and Taunt.
I still get annoyed with toons using Knockback Cones/AoEs on my mob, particularly if those attacks do negligable damage. I don't think PUGs will ever stop that though! 
The only time I bother to "Pull Herd" now is if the team encounters an open area with 2-3 mobs that are too close and will link (and even then, usually only if the number of mobs present would put me past the aggro cap). The "room of death" in indoor lab maps for example, and most rooms with mobs on an overhanging bridge or walkway.
Unfortunately the number of tanks I see that try to tank a mob "as-is" without a well-slotted taunt or Taunt Aura is getting ridiculous...
There's a few tanks out there who still like to actively herd. On my defender the majority of them seemed to delight in herding too many enemies and going over the aggro cap, to the delight of all nearby squishies. There have been a few notable exceptions though who've tanked really well, and the herding method certainly works wonders with a fire/fire blaster on the team. 
You still get idiots who don't follow the tank.
For these individuals it's generally best to let Darwinism run its course.
"rez plz!" 
I get this all the time when I'm doing my weekly TANC hero team, but then that's to be expected
It's a constant competition between me as the tank, trying to grab all the aggro, Wilf and Laustin as the blasters, trying to get themselves killed and Target as our canary, doing the regen scrapper thing.
Ultimately, in that sort of team environment, it really doesn't matter. I'm a good enough tank to keep most of the aggro and Wilf has enough awakens to last the night. On a lesser team, however, it can really stretch your abilities trying to keep aggro when people are all running around doing their own thing, but then it's not really fair to expect them to hang around and wait for you to herd everything nicely back to them.
Personally, I ask nicely for people to wait until I've coralled the mobs around me so that I can fire off Energy Absorption before they wade in with the Immobs. I don't spend ages herding, I just make sure I get all the mobs with Chilling Embrace and trying to get them all into melee range.
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Oh I agree, If a situation occured when the mobs were already in herd, or where i was taking ages to get ggro, then i wouldnt be as fussed if they got impatient. I use my fire nrg tanker a lot, and herding really doest take long. The problem is that some people really cant wait those ten seconds for me to run in, and run to my herd point, and i often find that upon my return the squishies have actually moved right into my herd point so its time fot me to go into quick thinking plan b mode. Do i a) go to my herd point anyway and hope the idiots get out of the way, b) find another suitable herd point safely away from the squishies (not always possible) or do it c) take what baddies actually come into melee range and let the blasters try to nail the other 90% who stay away to blat me with ranged attack. Tough call really.
Depends on the group that I'm playing with. As a whole, I generally don't herd with my tank, since the people I play with want to be in the action more, or slightly impatient. Sure, if they ask me to herd, I will, but if not, then I'll usually jump into a group with taunt aura up, use footstomp to grab everyone's attention, and then everyone jumps in after me. After that, we immediately move onto the next mob, and so on...
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"Keep living the dream, and never let any jerk tell you what to do."
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remember scrappers get poorley if they can't attack every thing they can see
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Depends on the group that I'm playing with. As a whole, I generally don't herd with my tank, since the people I play with want to be in the action more, or slightly impatient. Sure, if they ask me to herd, I will, but if not, then I'll usually jump into a group with taunt aura up, use footstomp to grab everyone's attention, and then everyone jumps in after me. After that, we immediately move onto the next mob, and so on...
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Thats pretty much how i levelled shannon but with must do herding away from ambush points. Now with over 1100 hours of being her i am either gonna play shannon as i want to or i dont play her seeing as i dont have to play her at all. With my new tanks i think the journey is important, i am in no rush to level, if i think the team dynamics are bad or i just dont enjoy it ill go play another toon. At the end of the day people play with eachother either because of the social side, good team dynamics, anarchy or whatever they decide as fun. Some people appreciate me getting all the aggro, i dont mind leaving a couple of strays as its not always important, i do believe in herd fast strategies and using taunt is sometimes a faster method than running in but if i am not first in or doing the tanking then i am not in the team.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
tbh - it might be cos we are getting long in tooth :P
I find that the more I play this game; the more I assume peeps know wot to do.
As many as there are peeps who are happy to be informed abt tanks, herding etc - there are loads who still want to play their own way. If this happens - I usually dont worry; as often, as the tank of the grp; i do hav the most survivability anyways. I finish the mish - then politely excuse myself
Interestingly - never seem to hav a prob in in-SG teams
I encountered a guys last night that was at the other end of the spectrum. I joined a team, of guys that had clearly teamed together a few times before. I got this imrepssion becasue the empath was constanly asking the other tank, to herd up entire rooms so that he could nova them. (amusingly enough these nova almost always ended up in the empath dying shortly after cos it was weak) anyways, the first time i heard them talking about herding i was pleased. Finally! i thought. However upon witnessing the other tanks first attempt at herding, it dawned on me that he didnt actually understand the concept fully. i.e he would run in, use his mud pots and his taunt to aggro the bad guys but instead of goin to a herd point, like behing a pillar or something, how would just stand there in themiddle of the room. only about four of the huge number of minions he had aggroed would actually get anywhere close to him and the rest were miles away hitting him with ranged attacks. No problem for a stone tank of course. but for the squishies who were trying to work out which to go for it was a problem. i saw this as an opportunity to set a new example and maybe, without having to belittle another player demonstrate for him the correct method of herding. i sent a tell to the empath saying that if he was goin to nova to use couple of reds and a couple of yellows bafore he did it, which he replied to saying he would try it. Then the next time the tank said herding i said ill help. more bad guys to nova cos we could double the number of bad guys in the herd point and therefore the number of bad guys that would get nuked. Unfortunately the other tank didnt want to share the "Glory" and started lecturing me on how that wasnt how to herd etc. i chose to ignore his little lesson mainly becasue i had already aggroed two mobs and was headed for my herd point, which was the same place that our no.1 tank had identified as his. lovely jubbly two mobs all in melee range around me just waiting for the other tank and his mobs to join the party. NOPE he was stood smack bang in the middle of the room with two bad guys in melee range whilst the rest of his aggro was at a safe ranged attack distance. and hes stood there calling for the empath to nova. Obviously the empath being friends with the other tank, did as he was asked and went to nova those two minions, and shortly after go face planted. Now perhaps i was wrong for trying to help the guy out by demonstrating the right way of doing it. but after it was clear to me that the team were behind him all the way, making digs like asking him to herd and saying ALONE at the end of each sentence i figured it was a lost cause. and as soon as the mission was over i made my excuses and left.
Point of my story is, that its not always the teams fault. sometimes the tank is just as daft as the rest of em
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Wilf has enough awakens to last the night.
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Sometimes... sometimes. Spad's an anomaly, he's been tanking so long he could do it (and do it well) with his eyes closed.
I've two tanks, who play very differently.
My Inv/Fire is really very tough indeed. I can comfortably sustain incoming damage from 3 mobs of an 8-spawned level 53 map (unless it's malta, natch). The problem is, there's no way in hell that I could hold all of their aggro. With Taunt and Invinci slotted up for taunt (and taunt for recharge too), plus my big happy AoE's, I'd be lucky if I got 2/3's of their aggro - the other 1/3rd of the mob is more than enough to wipe out an unwary blaster.
So generally, I tank as the team moves. I'm almost always in front (cos I'm the one who runs on first, when the last mob is down to 2 or 3 foes left - I'm not needed there) so I'm the one that hoofs it into the next mob first and tries to get their attention before the rest of the team arrives.
I tried herding, for about 5 levels in the early forties - I was tough enough to do it, and quite good at judging my aggro cap, but at the end of the day it was quite simply slower than normal tanking. To get the attention of a couple of mobs, wait around a corner for two minutes while they all arrive, keep the team informed of what's going on - it all interrupted the flow and xp gain slowed down for everyone even when it was working well. And when it wasn't working well - blasters stealing aggro before it's consolidated, controllers immob'ing half the mob while it's scattered running towards the corner, scrappers getting bored and dying in unrelated mobs, defenders going afk for a moment while we all die horribly, other tankers with alternate ideas on how to herd trying to taunt them off of me - it's a nightmare, it really is.
So herding got binned long ago, for me.
In general, you don't need to hold all of the aggro - as long as the majority's off the team and anything alarmingly dangerous is focused on you, as long as the team are surviving well you're doing your job well enough. you don't NEED to have all of the aggro absolutely locked down at all times - that slows things down and lowers XP gain across the board.
My other tanker is Fire/SS, and he has neither aura nor taunt, and doesn't even try for aggro. He hits stuff a lot, and that's all. It might not be old-school tanking, but hey. It kicks seven shades of behind.
DON'T eat muffins while I'm developing you.
Pants! Turkey Magnates! A man in a box! Rogue AI! Come one, come all, to arc ID 10107 - It's [i]'Not as long as some other arcs'[/i]!
Well, just keep in mind that herding isn't the only way to go.
I've seen a few people in game complaining that their team sucked because they couldn't herd properly or whatnot. Well, adapt and adjust then, instead of sticking to the stereotypical herding tank stubbornly (not saying this is what you do, more of a general comment / rant against tanks who start crying if they can't herd). Adjusting to your team/to the situation > trying to herd at all costs because everyone has done so for the past years.
Besides, ever since I started playing CoH again, I have found *one* tank who didn't utterly suck, and by that I mean only one tank who actually tanked stuff instead of waiting for half the team to be dead before doing anything.
So to all wannabe tanks out there, learn to tank first, then herd if you want to and your team is up for it.
I love the chaos element added to the game when I team with people who do not fully understand their "roles" or the game mechanics. The game would get very dull for me if all that was involved was herd/debuff/AoE move onto the next mob. I love the fact that I can join a team and never know quite what is going to happen when we enter the mission. I will play to the best of my ability regardless of my AT or percieved role and will have a lot of fun doing so. I have nothing against people who play their ATs in a purest fassion, in fact I do this on most of my own toons. It's just for me chaos = fun. I am aware that fun for some people is coordination, efficancy and defined roles, so I for one am not going to knock it.
"that slows things down and lowers XP gain across the board."
I bought the game to play a hero, whats is this XP?
Running in then running out type herding can lower xp more than necessary as just taunting, disappearing and letting them run to and build up around you is quicker or providing one mob isnt in the perception range of another just running in and aggroing is ok. As for XP/time stacked aoes on a mob can hit upto 16 at a time, if everyone stacked their aoes, without ever getting defeated no one is gonna say "this is how i imagined my hero face on the floor". There is a time and a place for everything, its non sensical to rule things out completely. Normally in teams where aggro control isnt allowed to be as good as it could its the same one person that keeps getting faceplanted all the time. I dont look at them and go "tut there he goes again" and treat it as an "it happens thing" because if it was me faceplanting i wouldnt be too impressed or even i might get annoyed. Actually i wouldnt of attacked in the how and way the dead in every mob type of person would of. I would for my own personal survival would of lowered my dps through lack of any aoe which would lower xp/time for the team but would increase my own. If nobody is doing me any favours why should i do them any?
16 foes all debuffed for -def and -res all attacked for hit 10 or 16 aoes is faster xp than 16 foes, 2 foes per person each with a couple of people getting more than they expected unluckily and defeated on the floor ready to earn half xp.
Herding is the moving of numbers, it could be making 3 horses move 3 feet.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
All I know is, herding feels dead artificial and was a lot less efficient in my 30-50 teams, according to herostats every time we tried it.
The worst bit about herding, I find, is that it buggers up the prospect of perma fulcrum shift.
DON'T eat muffins while I'm developing you.
Pants! Turkey Magnates! A man in a box! Rogue AI! Come one, come all, to arc ID 10107 - It's [i]'Not as long as some other arcs'[/i]!
I suppose i should clear up what my OP was really. Herding is one mere example of it. And i tend to only do it if the team is either struggling to deal with aggro containment (i.e only aggroing one mob at a time in close proximity to other mobs) or if they ask me to do so.
I am always up for new experiences and i by no means insist that people i team with should be generic AT's for their stereotypical role. HOWEVER, my main gripe is those players who quite clearly are in some kind of race with the tanker, be it to prove they are just as tough or whatever. Follow the tank is a rule i play by on my other AT's but dont expect people to use when i am tanking the way i see it you follow the person who has moved on first. But when you are the first person to move and other players run in the other direction despite that. Thats when it gets irritating and thats when i start sending tells to my global friends list looking for a new team.
Here's me thinking that you played a tank just to be a rock hard character who could also pound people to mush...
Seriously, it might not be the most effeciant use of the character, but I'm having a barrel of laughs just jumping into the middle of a group and laying some smackdown, all the while using taunt to grab the odd runner. Speaking as someone who leveled a controller empath as my first character and a kinetic defender as my second, healing is a hundred times easier if everyone is in melee range, all piling in and hurling their AoE's.
Speaking as someone who's first 50 was an empathy defender. Healing is a lot easier if people let the tanker take the damage. Heal other is long ranged and fast recharge if slotted correctly. theres no requirement for the empath to get hit by anything. I got the FUN out of getting the satisfaction that i had managed to prevent anybody from dying and keeping people buffed with fort, RA, EB and CM. getting nailed becasue the blaster stood next to me didnt wait for the tank to aggro and has got nemesis grenades coming in at me was not fun it was damned annoying.
My point is that there are lots of different play styles and tactics to use. And im all for that. Just dont blame me if the team gets wiped out because they didnt stick together or becasue the squishies got too close or got impatient. i wont sit there stubbornly refusing to help out people becasue they didnt do as i asked. if someone is in trouble becasue they didnt wait for me to get aggro, ill do my best to help them out, after all that is essentially what tanking is about. and im quite happy to skrank. if there is a stone tank in the team who can take teh damage better. I'm just worried that the tried and tested aggro-hold-aoe-melee which works best and very smoothly will be lost completely becasue people dont want to be boring. Use your whacky techniques by all means, debt isnt a big issue, but missions do get boring if teams constantly get wiped through poor tactics and impatience.
Good eaxample was last night. i was invited to join a team of 50's doing AV's. i was only lvl 40 so was sked up. we flew throught the missions at warp speed because they let me aggro, then the trollers immobilised them around me so that my aoe's could do some damage, then the blasters hit their aoe's whilst the scrappers cleaned up the strays and any that got knocked back too far. We killed Nemesis in about fifteen minutes from mish start to finish. we then went on to rescue Statesman from the preatorians and that AV who's name i have forgotten at this point. again nice and quick and smooth. got myself the Statesman's pal badge which i am chuffed with, and the team worked well together. Thats where the fun is for me, nice bit of TEAMWORK which is something i see less and less. too many teams with 8 solo'ers all trying to get their body count up IMO.
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I tried herding, for about 5 levels in the early forties - I was tough enough to do it, and quite good at judging my aggro cap, but at the end of the day it was quite simply slower than normal tanking. To get the attention of a couple of mobs, wait around a corner for two minutes while they all arrive, keep the team informed of what's going on - it all interrupted the flow and xp gain slowed down for everyone even when it was working well.
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Herding could be moving horses foes 3 feet just to get them into a pen. I think your idea of herding is trying to aggro maps but its not. It could be moving 1 group of 10 to a safer position at which to fight or making them tighter for debuff areas. I just do one group at a time since ED sometimes going for more is just plain stupid especially as some foes create pets and buff pets which all stack past aggro cap and often its not the size of the mob you worry about its the amount of bosses or certain types of minions in it. Another thing is I never try to look good. Team size and make up vary on what kind of result your herostat will have and as a tanker your herostat should be least important anyway, other people do matter, to a hero friends matter, people turn the game into a business where economics matter. Most i think they would of been happy with any game reading "Earn XP!" or "be a thug and hit things!".
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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The amount of scrappers whom i have teamed with lately who for some reason (maybe its blood lust i dont know) cant wait those ten extra seconds for me to herd up and get the aggro solid, and run off ahead and aggro on their own.
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You obviously haven't read The Zen of Scrapping.
Hey,
Must say I totaly aggree with Thundorn...
Somehow tanking has changed thru out the times. Many tankers I meet nowadays don't even carry TAUNT? can U believe that? How the hell are U going to keep aggro and pull'm away from the squishies (exceuse the term here) w/o taunt??
I see meself also as a herder/farmer (both coh/cov), not only for the fun of it, but also cause it's much safer for the whole team when they're nicely close together (nuke away boys and girls ).
My first tank was lvl50 back on I4 and I played a couple since then, so I'm not the greatest tank, but I tanked a couple hours :P
Regarding the 'trigger happy' scrappers, U do have a point there.... if it moves, it has to be attacked LOL
Why do tanks like to herd?
1) it's the one thing they're really good at, don't ask a tank to kill something.... they can't
2) easy aggaro management
3) in case of an INVUL. --> free defense
Fire Green - lvl50 INV/FM
www.thesocpages.net
IT seems lately, there is an epidemic of teams who dont use tanks to their full potential. (hopefully its not a long running thing cos i love old skool tanking) What i mean is that ive teamed with a lot of PuG's lately and in the interests of not coming across all ****** retentive, i havent tried to "educate" them on what a tank actually does. And it seems that I probably should. The amount of scrappers whom i have teamed with lately who for some reason (maybe its blood lust i dont know) cant wait those ten extra seconds for me to herd up and get the aggro solid, and run off ahead and aggro on their own. (this has on numerous occasions resulted in their death, surprisingly enough. Not surprisingly though guess who gets the blame when that happens) its not just scrappers mind you. the amount of times ive been herding, gone to my customary pillar or corner to draw them in only to find my expected herd has been frozen in their tracks by the moronic troller who has gone and held them in a nice "Spread out as far apart as possible" configuration. Again resulting in people getting nailed because the are too far apart to taunt all in one go.
Another classic is the blaster who messes it up, while im off getting baddies attention with my AoE the blaster decides to snipe one of the ones i havent gotten to yet, which then results in me having to chase them down to regain aggro.
It certainly adds a new dynamic to the game anyway. Im up for a challenge like anyone else but when i start getting blamed becasue our scrapper thinks he's a tank or people dont understand the phrase "Herding to here stay put and dont attack till i say Ready!" then i get annoyed.
Rant Over