I don't like kittens or puppies, no matter how cute, and am sick of people posting that I am going to kill them all.
Sorry, that God will, he tends to get us confused.
Back on topic:
Taunt is one of the best powers you can have on a tank. Other ones include your taunt aura and your main form of protection. Attacks are quite low on the priorities for a great tank.
Giant Monsters (etc) with footstomp (esque) pbaoes are easily overcome by perching up somewhere or hover/flying while taunting, as previously mentioned. I have done it several times while doing Eden Trial runs (for the Granite monsters and Crystal Titan), a trial I very much enjoy. I'd love to see how a tauntless tank can protect his team mates who are gathered around the feet of a monster in such an effective way.
I tanked a Granite this way in the Eden Trial, with another (groundbound fire) tank on team. Everytime the other tanker took aggro off me someone fell over on the ground.
Show me two tankers, slotted and powered identically, where one has taunt in place of a small attack on the other, and try to tell me that the tauntless one is as good at keeping squishies alive as the other. With a straight face, that is.
Shrug.
Isnt the job 'keep squishy alive' alive the job of a healer (in any form)? It is team play, if a fire blaster is just too damn selfish to wait for a tanker to take alpha strike.. gratz on the debt.
Then why in all cartoons, comics etc.. stateman is never tanking _all_ mobs? He is a tanker afterall? (ya i know the anwswer.. he doesnt have taunt).
*protecting the kitten*
I partied a few times with Kitty Summers (i think thats the name), who so far i've seen dont have taunt. I am a nrg/ice blaster, no mez protect, no mez attack. Still, only once i died against an AV.
Making you 'less tank' with not having Taunt? No, a tanker can still do what he is ... Tanking. Like defenders are seen as healers, without heal he's lousy.. No, they are all the same, they 'defend' the team (either buffs or heals, they defend).
50)Sinergy X/(50)Mika.
(50)MaceX/(50)Encore
Sign the petition, dont let CoH go down! SIGN!
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Isnt the job 'keep squishy alive' alive the job of a healer (in any form)?
[/ QUOTE ]
I tend to feel that it's the tank's job to keep the vulnerable members from getting attacked, and the healer's job to relieve the damage that's being done. So ideally that means that the tanker is keeping the squishier members alive and the healer is reinforcing the tanker for the main part, and taking care of other little bits of incidental damage.
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Isnt the job 'keep squishy alive' alive the job of a healer (in any form)?
[/ QUOTE ]No, it's the job of the said squishy.
funny how to change a topic, by just saying 'its AT's job to...' 
50)Sinergy X/(50)Mika.
(50)MaceX/(50)Encore
Sign the petition, dont let CoH go down! SIGN!
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ah yes i see the point there. you can do it but it does tend to be a bit loose as you start relying on timing it very well for run in punches and your ranged attacks.
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No when you kite, you stay kited, if you run in you could cause a pbaoe to wipe the scrappers in the team assuming blasters stay far back enough which most often they dont.
Against even lvl AV's in general kiting isnt that necessary depending on lowest level in team to AV. So good tanking in those circumstances is just someone hitting the AV and keeping the AV in their aura.
When you start facing +2 to +3 lvl AV's the size of the damage and accuracy of the pbaoe becomes more extreme and so its often better for the sake of the team to kite, that way ensuring the AV doesnt pbaoe. I will say that the ability and type of defender in the team can make the need to kite and the lack of need to kite a grey area. As an empath myself i prefer to just have to worry about the tanker in these situations.
What a tanker is for imo is to try not to allow others to get hit as much as possible. AVs may use ranged cone attacks which multihits which is why its good to have no one between you and the AV preferably all squishies around the back and if anyone the scrappers at the front.
Getting the AV to stop in his tracks and stick to a ranged attack can be fiddly sometimes or downright easy pretty much straight away. Mostly i think its just getting either the range right, having the av unable to move or without a need to move.
Also great to stand outside of team and taunt if an AV debuffs you anyway.
Also if your out of endurance it comes for free.
For everytime this kind of thing comes up i should just make a list of reasons and copy and paste them in.
Would i like to see good tanks without taunt, get taunt? yes i honestly would, id feel that much safer.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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Isnt the job 'keep squishy alive' alive the job of a healer (in any form)?
[/ QUOTE ]No, it's the job of the said squishy.
[/ QUOTE ]
I think the job of keeping any member of the team alive is down to the member and the team. What everyone does matters.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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A really good tanker don't need taunt.
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the day i meet one without taunt i'll confirm it.
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hmm...
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To be fair i have only seen you in about 5 missions and you were really good, just 5 isnt enough for a proper judgement call (i can feel my arm twisting now though
).
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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Giant Monsters (etc) with footstomp (esque) pbaoes are easily overcome by perching up somewhere or hover/flying while taunting, as previously mentioned. I have done it several times while doing Eden Trial runs (for the Granite monsters and Crystal Titan), a trial I very much enjoy. I'd love to see how a tauntless tank can protect his team mates who are gathered around the feet of a monster in such an effective way.
[/ QUOTE ]
Recently did the Eden Trial with the following team:
1 x Kinetics Defender (lvl 39)
1 x Nrg/Nrg Blaster (lvl 39)
1 x Illusion Controller (lvl 42 I *think*)
1 x Empath (lvl 43)
1 x Storm Defender (lvl 46)
1 x DM/SR Scrapper (lvl 50)
1 x Tauntless Tank (lvl 45)
1 x Dark Defender (lvl 50)
Had a grand total of 2 deaths throughout the entire trial
1 of them was when the Scrapper decided to show his costume off to a big group of DE outside (and the tank was no where near) in Eden doing the kill 200 mission, the other was when the Kinetics defender decicided to go for a super douper fulcrum shift about 2 seconds before the tank had fully managed the aggro from a big group of those crystal DE thingies...
Never even came close to death while taking down both of the big rock GMs or the crystal titan.
So, um, actually... tauntless tanking in the Eden trial can work fine 
(as a comparison we ran the same Trial the week before with a taunting tank and we actually had more deaths...)
And (shhh dont tell the team) i forgot to put invincibility on for the whole trial too, punchvoke only.
@ExtraGonk
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uh oh, I saw a level 4 in atlas today - Union - a Inv/Mace Tank with the following powers:
Invulnerability:Temp Invulnerability
War Mace:Bash, Pulverise, Taunt
Erm.. HOW!? 
Satan Spawn A.K.A Aureleous saw it too. He'll back me up.. If he ever reads Tankers. 
[/ QUOTE ]
i actually heard ppl speaking of this in-game the other night and it has been some sort of bug/wierdyness going on allowing */Mace to take taunt at lvl4
@EU Brimmy - Union and Exalted servers
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uh oh, I saw a level 4 in atlas today - Union - a Inv/Mace Tank with the following powers:
Invulnerability:Temp Invulnerability
War Mace:Bash, Pulverise, Taunt
Erm.. HOW!?
Satan Spawn A.K.A Aureleous saw it too. He'll back me up.. If he ever reads Tankers.
[/ QUOTE ]
i actually heard ppl speaking of this in-game the other night and it has been some sort of bug/wierdyness going on allowing */Mace to take taunt at lvl4
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That's a pity - by being forced to take Taunt at level 4 they'd be missing out on the glory that is Clobber... a terrible injustice!
Defiant 50�s: Generalissimo, Righteous Bob, Splortch, Brutus Cayuga
Union 50's: Chimera Obscura, Diet Anthracite, Grim Proctologist, Puny Little Minion, Raging Bitumen
In Soviet Russia, mission farm you!
i actually want to have taunt at lvl 4 again, most oftenly when i make a tank i make it all defense from the beggining and just team with it, being able to take taunt at lvl 4 made it run a bit smoother and helped getting in touch with the "power" of tanking
@EU Brimmy - Union and Exalted servers
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Giant Monsters (etc) with footstomp (esque) pbaoes are easily overcome by perching up somewhere or hover/flying while taunting, as previously mentioned. I have done it several times while doing Eden Trial runs (for the Granite monsters and Crystal Titan), a trial I very much enjoy. I'd love to see how a tauntless tank can protect his team mates who are gathered around the feet of a monster in such an effective way.
[/ QUOTE ]
Recently did the Eden Trial with the following team:
1 x Kinetics Defender (lvl 39)
1 x Nrg/Nrg Blaster (lvl 39)
1 x Illusion Controller (lvl 42 I *think*)
1 x Empath (lvl 43)
1 x Storm Defender (lvl 46)
1 x DM/SR Scrapper (lvl 50)
1 x Tauntless Tank (lvl 45)
1 x Dark Defender (lvl 50)
Had a grand total of 2 deaths throughout the entire trial
1 of them was when the Scrapper decided to show his costume off to a big group of DE outside (and the tank was no where near) in Eden doing the kill 200 mission, the other was when the Kinetics defender decicided to go for a super douper fulcrum shift about 2 seconds before the tank had fully managed the aggro from a big group of those crystal DE thingies...
Never even came close to death while taking down both of the big rock GMs or the crystal titan.
So, um, actually... tauntless tanking in the Eden trial can work fine
(as a comparison we ran the same Trial the week before with a taunting tank and we actually had more deaths...)
[/ QUOTE ]
With that much healing power on a team no wonder you only had 2 deaths. Care to post the team makeup of the team with the taunting tanker? I'm guessing a load less green numbers flying around...
I would go so far as to suggest a tank in that team wouldn't have made much difference anyway. The illusionists decoys quite probably took most of the attacks, and dropping Fortitude and AB on a the regen could have functioned just as well. I'm also curious if the ill controller was /rad. Chances are good that it was, which would have floored the GMs attacks anyway (dmg, acc, recharge), or /kin, which is more green and -(acc, rech, dmg, resist) anyway.
I'm not saying taunt makes the tank (where you seem to be saying it makes the team). I'm saying the same tank who has dropped a small attack for picking up taunt would function better in his role (that being to keep aggro off those needing to have the aggro kept off them), in the same team.
Shrug.
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With that much healing power on a team no wonder you only had 2 deaths. Care to post the team makeup of the team with the taunting tanker? I'm guessing a load less green numbers flying around...
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Actually, it was a very similar number of green numbers flying around. The other time we did the trial we ran with:
1 x Illusion/Rad Controller (50)
1 x Ice/Kinetics Controller (50)
1 x Earth/Empathy Controller (39)
1 x Mind/Kinetics Controller (43)
1 x Forcefield/Archery Defender (50)
1 x Inv/Energy Melee Tank (50)
1 x Peacebringer (40)
1 x warshade (40)
Edit: oh and I think this team only had about 4 deaths. Not 100% sure, think there were 2 deaths on the titan and 2 sometime before.
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I'm also curious if the ill controller was /rad. Chances are good that it was, which would have floored the GMs attacks anyway (dmg, acc, recharge), or /kin, which is more green and -(acc, rech, dmg, resist) anyway.
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nope it was a /trick arrow illusionist. So no extra green numbers - sure debuffs from the arrows they have (glue, disruption, oil and EMP I believe).
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I'm not saying taunt makes the tank (where you seem to be saying it makes the team).
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i'm not saying that at all - or not intentionally anyway. I don't believe tanks (with or without taunt) make teams - teams make teams. If thats how my post came across then oops. I highlighted the tank just incase anyone glancing down the page might miss it.
Besides is Eden Trial not realy a good example of tauntless tanking since 9/10 times you are fighting way over your taunt/aggro cap (specialy near the walls and Titan room clearout).
50)Sinergy X/(50)Mika.
(50)MaceX/(50)Encore
Sign the petition, dont let CoH go down! SIGN!
[ QUOTE ]
Besides is Eden Trial not realy a good example of tauntless tanking since 9/10 times you are fighting way over your taunt/aggro cap (specialy near the walls and Titan room clearout).
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Indeed it isn't a good indicator. Psygons teams suffered so few deaths because of the high amount of heals/buffs/debuffs available rather than tanking powers. I was just using it to illustrate GM PBAoE squishy-saving tactics, which cant work with tauntless tankers.
I've run an Eden with 1 tank (myself) and 3 scrappers. We failed to take the crystal titan down, mostly because of technical difficulties (and so we ran out of time) 
, but the Granite GMs were no sweat. Once I was perched up out of footstomp range, taunting, the scrappers could move in with impunity.
I'd love to know any other methods this could have worked with the same team, if the tank did not have taunt. And 'dropping him in a hole' will not accomplish defeating him. It just takes him out of play, and afaik, you can't hit him without dropping into the hole with him (still going with 3 scrappers and 1 tank here). I know some scrappers have ranged attacks, but enough that 3 of them could take down a GM?
I'm not even sure that 2 of the scrappers taking confront and ping-ponging the GM would work, surely not enough DPS? Plus the tank would likely outtaunt this everytime he attacked anyway.
Shrug.
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Giant Monsters (etc) with footstomp (esque) pbaoes are easily overcome by perching up somewhere or hover/flying while taunting, as previously mentioned. I have done it several times while doing Eden Trial runs (for the Granite monsters and Crystal Titan), a trial I very much enjoy. I'd love to see how a tauntless tank can protect his team mates who are gathered around the feet of a monster in such an effective way.
[/ QUOTE ]
Recently did the Eden Trial with the following team:
1 x Kinetics Defender (lvl 39)
1 x Nrg/Nrg Blaster (lvl 39)
1 x Illusion Controller (lvl 42 I *think*)
1 x Empath (lvl 43)
1 x Storm Defender (lvl 46)
1 x DM/SR Scrapper (lvl 50)
1 x Tauntless Tank (lvl 45)
1 x Dark Defender (lvl 50)
Had a grand total of 2 deaths throughout the entire trial
1 of them was when the Scrapper decided to show his costume off to a big group of DE outside (and the tank was no where near) in Eden doing the kill 200 mission, the other was when the Kinetics defender decicided to go for a super douper fulcrum shift about 2 seconds before the tank had fully managed the aggro from a big group of those crystal DE thingies...
Never even came close to death while taking down both of the big rock GMs or the crystal titan.
So, um, actually... tauntless tanking in the Eden trial can work fine
(as a comparison we ran the same Trial the week before with a taunting tank and we actually had more deaths...)
[/ QUOTE ]
With that much healing power on a team no wonder you only had 2 deaths. Care to post the team makeup of the team with the taunting tanker? I'm guessing a load less green numbers flying around...
I would go so far as to suggest a tank in that team wouldn't have made much difference anyway. The illusionists decoys quite probably took most of the attacks, and dropping Fortitude and AB on a the regen could have functioned just as well. I'm also curious if the ill controller was /rad. Chances are good that it was, which would have floored the GMs attacks anyway (dmg, acc, recharge), or /kin, which is more green and -(acc, rech, dmg, resist) anyway.
I'm not saying taunt makes the tank (where you seem to be saying it makes the team). I'm saying the same tank who has dropped a small attack for picking up taunt would function better in his role (that being to keep aggro off those needing to have the aggro kept off them), in the same team.
Shrug.
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That's all well and good if you can get teams every single time you log on. I don't know about you but I want to have some soloing potential, 2 attacks makes a huge difference to 1. I would still take taunt just not until around 24ish. Where in this build would I take taunt?
---------------------------------------------
Exported from Ver: 1.7.6.0 of the CoH_CoV Character Builder - (http://sherksilver.coldfront.net/index.php)
---------------------------------------------
Name:
Level: 22
Archetype: Tanker
Primary: Ice Armor
Secondary: Energy Melee
---------------------------------------------
01) --> Frozen Armor==> Empty(1)
01) --> Barrage==> Empty(1)
02) --> Hoarfrost==> Empty(2)
04) --> Chilling Embrace==> Empty(4)
06) --> Wet Ice==> Empty(6)
08) --> Combat Jumping==> Empty(8)
10) --> Bone Smasher==> Empty(10)
12) --> Hurdle==> Empty(12)
14) --> Super Jump==> Empty(14)
16) --> Health==> Empty(16)
18) --> Glacial Armor==> Empty(18)
20) --> Stamina==> Empty(20)
---------------------------------------------
01) --> Sprint==> Empty(1)
01) --> Brawl==> Empty(1)
01) --> Gauntlet==> Empty(1)
02) --> Rest==> Empty(2)
---------------------------------------------
Are you saying I should go 20 levels with barrage? Have you seen how bad that attack is? Even if I miss out health and get taunt at 18 that's only 6 levels before I would rather take it anyway.
I recently did the entire Numina TF without taunt because when I repseced I made the mistake of taking taunt at level 44. I went through the entire taskforce until the last mission without any team plants. In the last mission I fell down a hole in them nightmare 5 level blue caves and got stuck, the team proceeded to wipe (therefore sorta proving I was needed) from that mob. Taunt would not have made a difference because I did not have line of sight on the mob and it was my own mistake I feel. Even though I felt like I had failed my job of tanking (normally being a good tank that can go without plants for entire TF's) I noticed that taunt wasn't needed but handy to have.
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Indeed it isn't a good indicator. Psygons teams suffered so few deaths because of the high amount of heals/buffs/debuffs available rather than tanking powers. I was just using it to illustrate GM PBAoE squishy-saving tactics, which cant work with tauntless tankers.
[/ QUOTE ]
but your actual original question was:
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I'd love to see how a tauntless tank can protect his team mates who are gathered around the feet of a monster in such an effective way.
[/ QUOTE ]
I showed you a team that did it... we were happily gathered around the feet of the GMs... and none died. Green numbers or no green numbers... part of the point is the tauntless tank did a fine enough job and we had a nice team to back it up... Maybe there is something to the fact that I think the team is more important than the tank. Hence why I think a tauntless tank can work just fine as long as what you have in the rest of the team does a superb job...
Regarding the eden trial....
Sure heals were great and we had plenty of them, but you can't ignore the part tanking played on that team for one simple reason.
Ambrosia'd up or not the Crystal Titan kills you with one footstomp if you are a squishy. I know. I'd swallowed 1 the week before when he faceplanted my Ice Controller. Yet, not a single person died on the titan the second time we ran it. And we had similar level of debuffs both times...
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GM PBAoE squishy-saving tactics, which cant work with tauntless tankers.
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I think you are right about this to a degree. However, once a tank has epics they can do this job quite nicely without taunt.
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but your actual original question was:
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I'd love to see how a tauntless tank can protect his team mates who are gathered around the feet of a monster in such an effective way.
[/ QUOTE ]
I showed you a team that did it...
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Oh I agree wholeheartedly that a team is the sum of it's parts, please don't misunderstand me there. My favourite AT to team with as a close-range fighter is definitely a good controller (preferable /kin /rad /emp).
But as for my original question, you sort of bypassed it since your example showed me nothing of the tauntless tanker's ability. With a team like that, and on a trial like Eden, he would have been irrelevant for the most part anyway. I have no doubt that you could have swapped out the tank for any other AT and had the same results on your GM, which doesn't show me a tauntless tank protecting his team mates, if that makes sense.
Where as I have now posted a clear example on how I was able to, with taunt, keep 3 scrappers alive (of course them using their own powers too - regen, regen, dark armour) on that same GM. That would be an example of swapping a taunting tank for a tauntless one, that I would see as a pertinent answer for my question, really.
Note this was also the time and place where I worked out that I could taunt in such a way. Our first attempt a scrapper fell over every couple of footstomps. Since using taunt in this manner, it does mean I can't do any damage to the monster, but no footstomp = no deaths.
I hope you're not taking any of this personally Psygon. I've put forward my argument that given any tank without taunt, he/she would be better at keeping aggro by dropping a small attack and picking it up, and I'm just trying to defend that position. I'd hate for you to think badly of me after all the help you gave me with my forcefield defender!
Shrug.
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Where in this build would I take taunt?
[/ QUOTE ]
my very first 30 levels i had no travel power
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
i think a tanker with taunt is far more useful in any type of team make up, with 3 controllers in a team i have to wonder if a tanker is really required at all. You could have one of the worst tankers upfront (my boyfriend (the tanker) had to go out so he said take over what do i do?) and still not fail on it.
My controller mind emp would walk up to a T junction in a CoT mission and control 2 groups of CoT easily whereas a tanker may run in and get his butt handed to him.
I dont believe that tankers are "the stars" of the team or require any greater skill than anyother toon but for any team make up in any given situation taunt has its benefits its an anti ambush mechanism for one by pulling, damage mitigating because you dont have to be seen and be hit whilst herding to herd, you can stand in the debuff area for the sake of the defender not getting aggro and taunt any out of the debuff area to you. By using it to instantly taunt foes of someone whose well on trouble it kind of psuedo acts like a heal other.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Ice tanks do have the best taunt aura around, so that needs to be taken into consideration.
Around mid 20s I dont think any tank can rely on aura alone - you start fighting cabal, sky raiders, and lots of ranged foes so taunt becomes progressivly more "vital" (note the parentheses).
Having said that my ice tank is lvl 24, took taunt at level 10 and has had people gasping in awe and playing much more enjoyably
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That's all well and good if you can get teams every single time you log on. I don't know about you but I want to have some soloing potential, 2 attacks makes a huge difference to 1. I would still take taunt just not until around 24ish. Where in this build would I take taunt?
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12, drop Hurdle till 16?
I never see the point of stamina before 22 anyway, it's pretty useless until you can 3 slot it with SOs...
Shrug.
Next up, cute puppies