Myths about hero/villain unbalance

after the pentad match i have tested alot of things to have confirmed, actual facts, and no specualtions regarding the so called unbalance between heroes and villains, which have been a very hot debate lately... and the final conclusions is, that no matter what, there was no way any of the villain-teams could have beaten the heroes in the recent Pentad event. coz even tho there was some slight differense, it wouldnt have compensated the lack of skill that villains have regarding their powersets (not overall PvP-skill).

1) Slots make slight differense (not the full boost, but still a boost) and wont make much differense unless u plan poorly, such as granite armor 3 slots of dmg-res, while a lvl 50 might have 3 dmg res+3def.. makes differense in comparison, and would truely be make a diff on the brute. however theese kinds of cruscial slot-mistakes can be adjusted without the last 10 lvls, so in general the lack of slots, can be ignored, as long as u plan ur build correct for a lvl 40 build.the same can be said about accolades, tho ie 'Eye of the Magus' combined with 'Elude' would be nice, but wouldnt win the battle.

2) 1 huge misstake was made in the pentad tourny, due to no/bad info... no need to blame the events hosts for this, just a unhappy flaw (and wouldnt have changed the outcome anyway) SK/LK do NOT work in arena.. a lvl 35 is still a lvl 35, regarding def (and other effects) relations between lvl 38 and lvl 40 is none. (both will be treated as same lvl regarding acc/def/dmg/etc)

3) as said before, MMs has not yet found their place in PvP, and still needs alot of testing. in the meantime, MMs will be easy kills and that tips the scale of the 'even' fight situation, but not the basic balance. as soon as some1 can find a good arena-build for an MM, they will be as good as defenders or controllers in PvP. (imo MMs have found their use in base-raids with great results, but in Arena, things are alot diff and still needs to be tested for final use. my guess is buffer/debuffer only with random spawn of pets, just to confuse)

why most villains play PvP as a rigid team, prefered to be rooted down, is prolly because of MMs and their team-buffs.. i myself try to use theese buffs as much as possible (its still my PvE build, and since im not 50 yet, i have no intention of making a true PvP-build, and im sure this is the case for many other villains. and since we are PvE-built, atleast i am implementing the PvE-tactics to PvP, to use as much of my MM in PvP. this works rather well in bases, not in arena or zones, where the close quarters helps containing the good movement of PvP-heroes)

one thing i havent figured out yet, is why corruptors cant touche me, when blasters can. in PvE corrs are (imo) alot better than blasters, and feels as one of the games, most complete ATs. i guess ppl just have to learn and realize this, and we are sure to see this in the future.

one problem here is that the fact that ppl feel overrun and totally helpless needs to be fixed. perhaps its because casual PvP-ers arent fully aware of the fact that players that take part in ie Three Lions pentad teams, do nothing else (figure of speach, dont take it litterary). i remember the 1st time i entered arena when it was on test, and ppl where fighting 24/7 even as it was swamped with bugs and bad even-adjusts. (such as perma-elude, 6 HOs in attacks, etc).

I am more of a PvE-Expert, than PvP. I do things in PvE that ppl wouldnt dream of testing, and would die if they tried, while in PvP ppl luagh at me. i think we need to enlighten the players of the huge amount of hours some ppl sspend in this game, doing what they do best, and that there is no way in hell u can compete with their skills (and i guess even talent) unlss u do the same.. casual PvPers shouldnt fight PvP-experts, unless its for educational purpouses only perhaps then ppl wont complain as much..

remember that guy outside the every PvP-zone warning u for hostile players? take that warning for what it is. if u gt killed in a PvP-zone, it is the nature of the Zone. complaining about the cercumstances (bad spelling) they got killed, would be the same as complaining to the longbow warden that he should have waited while u rested

i dont ever get upset when i get killed in a PvP-zone, and i never will.. same thing goes in the arena. gloating/boastin and snotty remarks kinda go with the territory... it cant be excluded, but i really dont find it to be as abusive as it could be.

I think Villians could do better in Mass PvP. Pentad is perhaps too small Scale for them.

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after the pentad match i have tested alot of things to have confirmed, actual facts, and no specualtions regarding the so called unbalance between heroes and villains, which have been a very hot debate lately... and the final conclusions is, that no matter what, there was no way any of the villain-teams could have beaten the heroes in the recent Pentad event. coz even tho there was some slight differense, it wouldnt have compensated the lack of skill that villains have regarding their powersets (not overall PvP-skill).

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Villans are based on DMG At's - a min/max build on 1v1 would possibly outcome that of a hero. - therfore I'd like to know how you arranged these figures. - maybe post your differnces? would be some interesting reading.

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1) Slots make slight differense (not the full boost, but still a boost) and wont make much differense unless u plan poorly, such as granite armor 3 slots of dmg-res, while a lvl 50 might have 3 dmg res+3def.. makes differense in comparison, and would truely be make a diff on the brute. however theese kinds of cruscial slot-mistakes can be adjusted without the last 10 lvls, so in general the lack of slots, can be ignored, as long as u plan ur build correct for a lvl 40 build.the same can be said about accolades, tho ie 'Eye of the Magus' combined with 'Elude' would be nice, but wouldnt win the battle.

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Villans are equally able to do a respec into a PVP build at lvl 40. I know I did, and Im sure Im not alone. - therefor its comes down to common sence rather than facts and figures in your equasion.

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2) 1 huge misstake was made in the pentad tourny, due to no/bad info... no need to blame the events hosts for this, just a unhappy flaw (and wouldnt have changed the outcome anyway) SK/LK do NOT work in arena.. a lvl 35 is still a lvl 35, regarding def (and other effects) relations between lvl 38 and lvl 40 is none. (both will be treated as same lvl regarding acc/def/dmg/etc)

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This is true, but however only a very small margin of people were below the desired level. - and to be really honest, it would not make such a hugh impact and cannot blame the tourney or any losses due to this. I know of people that have played up to 8 times lower in strengh agaisst some of the better teams and yet still manged to win. this sounds like an escape route for you.. Dont do it!

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3) as said before, MMs has not yet found their place in PvP, and still needs alot of testing. in the meantime, MMs will be easy kills and that tips the scale of the 'even' fight situation, but not the basic balance. as soon as some1 can find a good arena-build for an MM, they will be as good as defenders or controllers in PvP. (imo MMs have found their use in base-raids with great results, but in Arena, things are alot diff and still needs to be tested for final use. my guess is buffer/debuffer only with random spawn of pets, just to confuse)

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Again this is all about teamwork, the main problem was MM's tried to use there pets to early IMO, Was too easy for the blaster on the Hero side to run in and Nuke. Knowing powers from hero side would of made you have starting tactics differntly and evaded the nuke and had a better opertunity to release pets.

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why most villains play PvP as a rigid team, prefered to be rooted down, is prolly because of MMs and their team-buffs.. i myself try to use theese buffs as much as possible (its still my PvE build, and since im not 50 yet, i have no intention of making a true PvP-build, and im sure this is the case for many other villains. and since we are PvE-built, atleast i am implementing the PvE-tactics to PvP, to use as much of my MM in PvP. this works rather well in bases, not in arena or zones, where the close quarters helps containing the good movement of PvP-heroes)

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Im sorry but this is crazy talk from somone who recently boasted about being the richest VG on Union and who are wanting PVP challenges... then you say you use tactics from PVE into PVP!. - the 2 should never be in the same sentance IMO. (You can learn what is a good power from PVE) but Never tactics. - as regards to movment. if you are rooted, then you stand more of a chance in getting targetd. - PVP skill is not just about killing, but also being evasive too, Your buffer needs to be on the move and use his movment skills to buff as he does so.

Not having a PVP build is your own fault. Why make that statement and then moan about it? respec into one then try again?

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one thing i havent figured out yet, is why corruptors cant touche me, when blasters can. in PvE corrs are (imo) alot better than blasters, and feels as one of the games, most complete ATs. i guess ppl just have to learn and realize this, and we are sure to see this in the future.

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Again knowing powers, Bubblers are powerfull and anoying. but Add a Kinetics to the team and Fort and bubblers become less powerfull.

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one problem here is that the fact that ppl feel overrun and totally helpless needs to be fixed. perhaps its because casual PvP-ers arent fully aware of the fact that players that take part in ie Three Lions pentad teams, do nothing else (figure of speach, dont take it litterary). i remember the 1st time i entered arena when it was on test, and ppl where fighting 24/7 even as it was swamped with bugs and bad even-adjusts. (such as perma-elude, 6 HOs in attacks, etc).

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3 Lions are an expereinced outfit, of course anyone to come accross them will be hard done by, but like any team, you play and practice enough, min/max teams then it wont be so bad. - that is due to discression of the player/team to do so. - as said in other threads, there is practice sessions on test server on wens nights, why not come along too? you will learn somthing.

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I am more of a PvE-Expert, than PvP. I do things in PvE that ppl wouldnt dream of testing, and would die if they tried, while in PvP ppl luagh at me. i think we need to enlighten the players of the huge amount of hours some ppl sspend in this game, doing what they do best, and that there is no way in hell u can compete with their skills (and i guess even talent) unlss u do the same.. casual PvPers shouldnt fight PvP-experts, unless its for educational purpouses only perhaps then ppl wont complain as much..

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erm you are not a PVP player? - then WHY advertise yourself as one in the harsh "we own in raids" Threads then? - and secondly. PVP Groups prefer to have a Aim or Target to beat. - why not try and fight the best, EVEN if you know that you wont stand a chance? - but if there is a small possibility that you can walk away knowing that you need to enhance on your existing build then its all good..right? - and besides people like to benchmark there own level of skill from other SG/VG's

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remember that guy outside the every PvP-zone warning u for hostile players? take that warning for what it is. if u gt killed in a PvP-zone, it is the nature of the Zone. complaining about the cercumstances (bad spelling) they got killed, would be the same as complaining to the longbow warden that he should have waited while u rested

i dont ever get upset when i get killed in a PvP-zone, and i never will.. same thing goes in the arena. gloating/boastin and snotty remarks kinda go with the territory... it cant be excluded, but i really dont find it to be as abusive as it could be.

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Generally you get a lot of smack talk in zones, however in arena PVP there never is. - we show upmost respect to who we ae fighting and they do the same for us - we never brag, or gloat or simple moan and outrage, it just isn't cool!.

Have a good day.

For me, stalkers and Corruptors are the key to PvP for villains and MM's are, at present, a liability in PvP zones and arena.

In a simple 5 on 5, I think a villain team can do well against heroes with a bit more practice, just not in pentad.

As for Blasters Vs Corruptors. I've noticed this as well. I know blasters do have a higher damage output than corruptors but it seems to be a LOT higher than it should be with blasters able to tear through Corruptors in seconds.

My main theory on that is that Defiance may be a little overpowered in PvP, compared to PvE where it is little use whatsoever. The end of '1 shot kills' could make the ability to 'play' with Defiance a lot easier as well. Also, Blaster secondaries are vastly different to Corruptor ones in that they can make Blappers while Corruptors can't. Toggle dropping blasters are one of the biggest threats in PvP for me as travel toggle drop = faceplant.

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why not try and fight the best, EVEN if you know that you wont stand a chance? - but if there is a small possibility that you can walk away knowing that you need to enhance on your existing build then its all good..right? - and besides people like to benchmark there own level of skill from other SG/VG's


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/agree.. Only way to improve by learning is play against people better than you.. That is what most people serious about pvp should aspire to.. Eventually there is always someone better than you out there somewhere.. If you lose, learn, and do better.

I find the key to arena fights with villains lies in corrs. 5 corrs is prolly the best combination, you can have for villains. This is very unlike heroes, who can do very well in pentads.

Let villains freely choose AT's instead of restricting them to pentads. You will prolly see very even fights.

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For me, stalkers and Corruptors are the key to PvP for villains and MM's are, at present, a liability in PvP zones and arena.

In a simple 5 on 5, I think a villain team can do well against heroes with a bit more practice, just not in pentad.

As for Blasters Vs Corruptors. I've noticed this as well. I know blasters do have a higher damage output than corruptors but it seems to be a LOT higher than it should be with blasters able to tear through Corruptors in seconds.

My main theory on that is that Defiance may be a little overpowered in PvP, compared to PvE where it is little use whatsoever. The end of '1 shot kills' could make the ability to 'play' with Defiance a lot easier as well. Also, Blaster secondaries are vastly different to Corruptor ones in that they can make Blappers while Corruptors can't. Toggle dropping blasters are one of the biggest threats in PvP for me as travel toggle drop = faceplant.

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i dont think blasters shud be compared to corruptors, i see corruptors as the villain version of defenders

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Generally you get a lot of smack talk in zones, however in arena PVP there never is. - we show upmost respect to who we ae fighting and they do the same for us - we never brag, or gloat or simple moan and outrage, it just isn't cool!.


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If you ain't talkin' smack, then you ain't doin' it right

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I find the key to arena fights with villains lies in corrs. 5 corrs is prolly the best combination, you can have for villains. This is very unlike heroes, who can do very well in pentads.

Let villains freely choose AT's instead of restricting them to pentads. You will prolly see very even fights.

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i think 5 experienced PvP'rs using villains cud do very well, with practise, in a villain team, every AT can produce a fair amount of dmg and with coordination wud be deadly

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My main theory on that is that Defiance may be a little overpowered in PvP, compared to PvE where it is little use whatsoever. The end of '1 shot kills' could make the ability to 'play' with Defiance a lot easier as well. Also, Blaster secondaries are vastly different to Corruptor ones in that they can make Blappers while Corruptors can't. Toggle dropping blasters are one of the biggest threats in PvP for me as travel toggle drop = faceplant.

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I would swop Defiance for the the corruptors version any day. Imagine the kill stealing

One thing i think alot of people are forgeting was my teams match against Dels hero team. It finished 30-0. Our matchs against 2 of the villain teams finished 30 to36 -0(cant remember exact scrore) So not much difference there for heros or villains against a experienced team. Difference between my team and the other teams? 2 things experience and PvP builds.(some in my team were old PvP builds (it has changed alot from then) and we hadnt played before as a team with these alts. That said all had lots of PvP experience)

Is it just me or is Zak's post a little hostile compared to a rather neutral post by Dr Death?
Ofcourse I won't be considered an objective participant in the discussion, nonetheless I don't think Dr Death was moaning about anything.
As a matter of fact, he states there are no balance issues and that it's a skill issue on the villain side. Is this not the point that you, Zak, are trying to make 24/7? I find your attitude confusing, but maybe I misinterpreted your post.

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2) 1 huge misstake was made in the pentad tourny, due to no/bad info... no need to blame the events hosts for this, just a unhappy flaw (and wouldnt have changed the outcome anyway) SK/LK do NOT work in arena.. a lvl 35 is still a lvl 35, regarding def (and other effects) relations between lvl 38 and lvl 40 is none. (both will be treated as same lvl regarding acc/def/dmg/etc)

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This is true, but however only a very small margin of people were below the desired level. - and to be really honest, it would not make such a hugh impact and cannot blame the tourney or any losses due to this. I know of people that have played up to 8 times lower in strengh agaisst some of the better teams and yet still manged to win. this sounds like an escape route for you.. Dont do it!

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I was playing at level 36 and i did absolutely fine, even though most of my enhancements are red and grey...


And Zak's post didn't seem hostile at all, so please don't start a flame.

I think our chats on the Leader channel tonight definitely showed a lot of holes in our general PvP min/max knowledge.

One thing that did come up was the RES vs DEF question and also the value of -ACC powers.

For arena team PvP, where should our buffs/debuffs be concentrated? -DEF -ACC +DEF +RES, balanced.

Overall opinion seemd to be go with RES heavy sets such as SR and concentrate on +DEF and +DMG buffs for our team. Chances are this is wrong though so any feedback appreciated.

(Please just leave the flaming. We've seen enough of it lately and I think people have all said their piece in other posts. No need to carry it on)

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RES heavy sets such as SR

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I hope that's a brainfart.

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I think our chats on the Leader channel tonight definitely showed a lot of holes in our general PvP min/max knowledge.

One thing that did come up was the RES vs DEF question and also the value of -ACC powers.

For arena team PvP, where should our buffs/debuffs be concentrated? -DEF -ACC +DEF +RES, balanced.

Overall opinion seemd to be go with RES heavy sets such as SR and concentrate on +DEF and +DMG buffs for our team. Chances are this is wrong though so any feedback appreciated.

(Please just leave the flaming. We've seen enough of it lately and I think people have all said their piece in other posts. No need to carry it on)

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That's quite an interesting point raised about the res, def, etc stuff. I would rather have increased resiatance myself after a little thought, since it could make a blaster's defiance scretch out longer, couple with other buffs going on (ie, empaths' RA buffs) - but this is strictly about my blaster, it would be interesting to see how it fares out but /rad seems to be a really popular pvp tool, I know I'd definately like to see actual Sonic offenders once in a while.

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RES heavy sets such as SR

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I hope that's a brainfart.

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Not enitrely. IIRC SR powers do give increased resistance to attacks as your health goes down, but you can't slot it. It is defence, but resistance is in there, I was thinking he meant Invul? Maybe

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I think our chats on the Leader channel tonight definitely showed a lot of holes in our general PvP min/max knowledge.

One thing that did come up was the RES vs DEF question and also the value of -ACC powers.

For arena team PvP, where should our buffs/debuffs be concentrated? -DEF -ACC +DEF +RES, balanced.

Overall opinion seemd to be go with RES heavy sets such as SR and concentrate on +DEF and +DMG buffs for our team. Chances are this is wrong though so any feedback appreciated.

(Please just leave the flaming. We've seen enough of it lately and I think people have all said their piece in other posts. No need to carry it on)

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wud depend entirely on the other builds in the team, if a good empath and good kin is present in the hero team i'd have RES all the way, if one is missing i'd proably go DEF

for villains if a good thermal is present i'd have RES, if no thermal i'd go DEF

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RES heavy sets such as SR

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I hope that's a brainfart.

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Not enitrely. IIRC SR powers do give increased resistance to attacks as your health goes down, but you can't slot it. It is defence, but resistance is in there, I was thinking he meant Invul? Maybe

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Having just levelled my Claws/SR to 50 yesterday, I know all about "Scrapfiance" - and it's about as bobbins as Defiance is.

I think we need to start a thread about words like Blastvoke and Scrapfiance.

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RES heavy sets such as SR

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I hope that's a brainfart.

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Could have meant Sonic Resonance? Since +Res buffs were mentioned, I think that might make more sense .

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RES heavy sets such as SR

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I hope that's a brainfart.

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Sonic resonance since he is talking about buffs/debuffs..

People use abbreviations far too freely these days and automatically expect others to understand

zak, im sorry, but u should read the post again, since u clearly missunderstood its purpouse and content. contact me later in-gaem and we can sort out any differenses u clearly feel we have.

This post was mainly post for villains, to kill the myth about unblanace, and im moaning?? im trying to tell villains why it feels like there is a major balance diff, and im making excuses?

Zak clearly states that skill is the reason, and so does this post... so why even post, zak?

i withdrawn the statements regardin kins post, and i appologize deeply. i was pretty tired making this post, and even if thats no excuse, uve been corrected to missunderstanding that post. please accept this appology, and thx for pointing this out to me.

Hey hey, I think its great you tried to analyze what happened and make the post. I'm afraid theres still a fair bit of "we are da best" attitude lingering on hero side, and that your post was seen by somebody as a an attempt to save face, or something. Don't take it too seriously and please continue sharing your thoughts of the game.
/e thumbsup

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I'm afraid theres still a fair bit of "we are da best" attitude lingering on hero side

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Well, as Paragon City is still not under the Arachnos jackboot, I'd have to say it's more than lingering, and mroe than just an attitude

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and kin.. what? are u saying i dot know anything about PvP? then that must mean u know it all, to be able to make that judgment.. and even as i asked u for suggestions and advices, u act as if u where friendly, when u really laughed at me behind my back? if my theory about maxing -acc/+def is soo horrible, can u plz explain why all of theese original PvP-uber sets has been nerfed? why did hey remove perma-elude? coz it sucked? no, coz with perma-elude, it was pointless to fight them in PvP... and if im trying to duplicate that situation, im stupid and ignorant?

sorry for offending u all by actually trying to clear some questionmarks up.. next time my post will only contian 'Violators Rule!!' comments and 'AoW are a bunch of girls' taunts, since this is the effect i have anyway, there is no point in wasting my time on this forum.

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Oh stop the drama! From what I can see you believe DEF is the way to go and Kin is leaning towards RES and therefore asking for the oppinion of people here....no need to be a dramaqueen about it.

You started a good thread here. You have made some comments in the past that apparantly have made you feel somewhat persecuted on these boards. Next time you feel like writing a counterreply like this try and read the original post once more and take a couple of deep breaths before you do so....then maybe you will realise that not everyone are out to get you.