Myths about hero/villain unbalance

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Just out of interest though, why would anyone attack a brute if there is a corrupter nearby to kill first?


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why wouldn't you?

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Why wouldnt I? Well why attack a shielded AT being healed over a non shielded AT with less health doing the healing?

A blaster could probably still do it easily but still dont see, unless your taunted, why you would go for brute 1st tbh.

Edit: Not trying to be funny, really like to know incase I should be .

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In most cases of course we (emphasis on we) would of course go for the squishy first but sometimes its just fun to go for the harder kills.

If I was alone I would always go for the squishy since I only play trollers and corrs so I would have some trouble killing even 1 of them

True, if you want slow protects, get a kin :P

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Thaw adds slow protection! Do you have any ideas how awesome that is?

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IMO, not awesome enough to make up for the loss of fear and confuse res, and perception.

I'd love to know how good the slow res is. I know when doing some Tsoo missions it seemed pretty much useless at helping Syn's brute, who'd had his speed siphoned. Thankfully, we had a kin to SB him, which did help.

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Then your saying sonic is the only way to go?

Or you could have a */Dark brute, */Nin stalker and */Dark MM to combat many of these points and thermal for forge on players and pets .

Think one problem with villains is that apart from stalkers they have little in the way of burst damage. Most hero kills are done by blasters and scrappers.

For villains is it Stalkers and MMs? If I remember rightly Brute base damage is less then tanks so they need buffs like forge to really get to work until they get up some fury. Corrupters and Doms cannot even begin to compare to Blasters and Scrappers for burst damage.

Dont just win through huge damage figures, but it does help alot IMO.

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True, if you want slow protects, get a kin :P

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That isnt exactly true. Thaw enables you to run through quicksand like it isnt there. We have found thaws slow protection to be quite good.

We havnt fought that many CoT's, so our PvE testing is quite limited. Our main tankers for against the Baracuda AV (yes, we [censored] the sucker for SO's) have always been our stalkers, and they say the difference between thaw and no thaw is very big. They even say thaw is probably just as good as SB, maybe better.

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Thaw adds slow protection! Do you have any ideas how awesome that is?

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Do you have any idea how underwhelming the slow protection of Thaw is?

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They even say thaw is probably just as good as SB, maybe better.

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The only benefit Thaw has over SB is that it's stackable.

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We havnt fought that many CoT's, so our PvE testing is quite limited. Our main tankers for against the Baracuda AV (yes, we [censored] the sucker for SO's) have always been our stalkers, and they say the difference between thaw and no thaw is very big. They even say thaw is probably just as good as SB, maybe better.

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As I said, in my experience of it, it's really not that good at all. Against Siphon Speed, it barely helped, while an SB immediately sent the affected player back up to an almost-normal speed. Not surprising, really, because Thaw only has slow res, while SB has fairly high +speed. Plus, SB is +recharge... does Thaw give res to -recharge effects, or just to -slow in the sense of movement slows?

I might see if I can get around to properly testing things at some point, but as it stands, I'm completely unimpressed by Thaw, and I'd give it up for Clear Mind any day. Thaw has resulted in deaths when I couldn't get rid of status effects in both PvE and PvP.

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Then your saying sonic is the only way to go?

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Not really - as you've pointed out, you could put together a pentad team that got around some of the weaknesses, and anyway... it's common practice to go into a pentad match with plenty of BFs anyway. I've seen excellent hero pentad teams who didn't have an Empath or Sonic on them, and they've managed. And it's quite possible that you might fight teams without fear and confuse effects. However, it does seem like a gaping hole that other teams could start taking advantage of, and you'd need to be very aware of it, and make sure you had some way to counter it. Slotted Stimulant is a possibility, since it does get rid of fear and confuse, but it has very short range and an interrupt. Or, of course, the old standby of having everyone on the team carry BFs.

It's less that I'm saying Thermal is no good for matches, and more that I'm highlighting where there is what I perceive as a pretty serious disbalance in the two sides. If anything, it's more of a problem in zonal PvP. I'll stop myself there, so as not to derail the thread.

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It's less that I'm saying Thermal is no good for matches, and more that I'm highlighting where there is what I perceive as a pretty serious disbalance in the two sides. If anything, it's more of a problem in zonal PvP.

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Agreed, but it also creates problems for Arena PvP in that hero teams with a decent Empath can carry fewer BFs in favour of red and green insps; villain teams of a similar skill level will be forced by default to carry more BFs at the expense of other insps, lest they be screwed to damnation by a single Mind/Illusion troller (for example).

This is an interesting point, what insps people bring into an arena. Insps are a strong part of tactics. If I have a healing char I tend to go for BFs and a few lucks just incase the action gets heavy.

I know there are many theories about insps in the US, and no doubt here, clearly if you are up against certain opponents, e.g. end drainers, you also need to work round that aswell.

Maybe another unbalance is that villains are more jack of all trades rather then kings of any so insp choice has to me more varied in order to buff up what is already there rather then plugging holes. Not only do villains not have the Blasters and Scrappers but MMs,Doms and Corruptors in support dont seem anywhere as good as Troller and Defender.

I dont know what other people go for in arenas and it would be interesting to know and see if there is a difference between heroes and villain. Ive hardly ever set foot in the arena, esp for teamed arena, with reds, but maybe that is a mistake.

IMHO teams with each member with a specialised role (heroes) will tend to beat teams with members who are more versitile solo (villains). Since this is almost unchangable through gameplay but rests more in game dynamics heroes will probably always have the advantage, unless ofcourse people come up with a completely new and workable playstyle.

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True, if you want slow protects, get a kin :P

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That isnt exactly true. Thaw enables you to run through quicksand like it isnt there. We have found thaws slow protection to be quite good.

We havnt fought that many CoT's, so our PvE testing is quite limited. Our main tankers for against the Baracuda AV (yes, we [censored] the sucker for SO's) have always been our stalkers, and they say the difference between thaw and no thaw is very big. They even say thaw is probably just as good as SB, maybe better.

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was that 1 quicksand or 2? because super speed goes through 1 quicksand very fast, only stacked quicksand stops ss.

the trouble with thaw is that its duration is the same as ID and unlike kin they have more than 2 buffs to give out, thermals are expected to give out 2shields and thaw to every1, give out forge as much as possible, attempt to keep people alive with a less than amazing heal, while debuffing the enemy and assisting in attacks

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Thaw adds slow protection! Do you have any ideas how awesome that is?

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IMO, not awesome enough to make up for the loss of fear and confuse res, and perception.

I'd love to know how good the slow res is. I know when doing some Tsoo missions it seemed pretty much useless at helping Syn's brute, who'd had his speed siphoned. Thankfully, we had a kin to SB him, which did help.

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Then your saying sonic is the only way to go?

Or you could have a */Dark brute, */Nin stalker and */Dark MM to combat many of these points and thermal for forge on players and pets .

Think one problem with villains is that apart from stalkers they have little in the way of burst damage. Most hero kills are done by blasters and scrappers.

For villains is it Stalkers and MMs? If I remember rightly Brute base damage is less then tanks so they need buffs like forge to really get to work until they get up some fury. Corrupters and Doms cannot even begin to compare to Blasters and Scrappers for burst damage.

Dont just win through huge damage figures, but it does help alot IMO.

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brutes can do a lot of damage with the right build, i'd say stalkers and brutes are the main dmg dealers with MMs, doms and corruptors baccking them up on attacks where possible

assist with attacks no. the rest yes. Its a busy set and why I like playing it.

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Thaw adds slow protection! Do you have any ideas how awesome that is?

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IMO, not awesome enough to make up for the loss of fear and confuse res, and perception.

I'd love to know how good the slow res is. I know when doing some Tsoo missions it seemed pretty much useless at helping Syn's brute, who'd had his speed siphoned. Thankfully, we had a kin to SB him, which did help.

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Then your saying sonic is the only way to go?

Or you could have a */Dark brute, */Nin stalker and */Dark MM to combat many of these points and thermal for forge on players and pets .

Think one problem with villains is that apart from stalkers they have little in the way of burst damage. Most hero kills are done by blasters and scrappers.

For villains is it Stalkers and MMs? If I remember rightly Brute base damage is less then tanks so they need buffs like forge to really get to work until they get up some fury. Corrupters and Doms cannot even begin to compare to Blasters and Scrappers for burst damage.

Dont just win through huge damage figures, but it does help alot IMO.

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brutes can do a lot of damage with the right build, i'd say stalkers and brutes are the main dmg dealers with MMs, doms and corruptors baccking them up on attacks where possible

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Yup thats very true but so can buffed up EM tanks .

I mean, Tank,Scrapper and Blaster vs Brute,Stalker and MM, I know who I would put my money on, esp if people are moveing around quickly and limiting the use of AS.

More I think of it kin would maybe be best pentad corruptor but it leaves holes. Heroes really get alot from having 2 buff ATs while personally I think MMs are more debuff on the whole and therefore less useful vs a mobile team in PVP.

When you look at 41+ powers I think the gap widens even more as pet damage can be avoided more easily .

Just found a couple of interesting posts on the US forums about this.

Think a few people are going to be surprised at some of the views over there as they seem quite different to the ones over here.

http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showf...t=all&vc=1

http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showf...t=all&vc=1

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Think a few people are going to be surprised at some of the views over there as they seem quite different to the ones over here.

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Some of them are, most of them aren't... which parts were you surprised by?

Lol, made an idiot of myself again. I only stumbled across it just before I left work and the first posts I read where the ones saying villains were much better in 'non pentad' matches.

Jusrt scanning through it now, I can see they're soon shouted down by the rest of the communities mocking tones.

For me the main problem with corrupter's in pvp is the % chance for scourge to kick in, at 50% health scourge should start with a % chance but in my experience in pvp it just doesn't, in fact to make it work at all the target seems to have to be nearer 25% of its health.

This would explain why defenders seem to be harder to kill than a blaster when i play my corrupter as they continually heal them selfs into the this semi safe zone, it then turns in to a battle as to who has the most stamina to last the battle.

I to think corrupter's damage is in the right place compared with other alts but would like to see scourge get a small buff.

i read everything (and not sure i got all the point, to bad to be french ^^)and as far as i'm concerned ithing that unbalance is not a myth.
true that a good villain player ca equal a good hero player i must admit that i made my point with my own PvP expereience, i don't know exactly damage cap of each side or def/buff potential % (i don'tlike math ^^) but generally i find hero AT more.. hum.. better at what they are supposed to do and some seems clearly too polyvalent.

villain AT seems to be the some of too hero one for exemple brute have damage of rava and def of brute. i can seem strongonhte paper but in pratic it mean nobody to tank and in duel and PvP i saw too much rava and even blaster tearing apart a brute.

more over it seems that hero seems to have more tactical option in term of build, ice tank can equal a dominator; healer can be defendeur or controleur... vilain are more rigid in their pool (sitll it is what i feel from my playing experiences).

i could talk about regen rava but forme blaster show what i mean greatly. in warburg ice blaster immo better than my ice full SOed dominator.
they do betterdoamge at range than blaster and whil you could thing that melee is the best option to get ried of then it appear that with aim+ bu and a foca or other strong melee attack they can 2 shoot almost everything (assuming they it, true).
i think that an AT shouldn't have as much effectivness in role so different.

secondly don't know why but compared to my CoH experiences, i find villain AT too much end heavy. i mean while on a sr screpper icould fight a little without stamina, i see on stalker side that only running the toogle suck off xp.
so where on a side stamina is a question of comfort on the other is appears as an obligation to many (too many) build.

to finish 2 AT of the villain AT can be negated in PvP i mean domi are clearly underpowered and if the boost dev plan to give them is like hum... their PPP's they will be totatlly useless in level 50 PvP as every villain will get a hold. (PPP that i clearly am against cause it tend to geive possibilityto villain AT that should be other AT job - see the blaster exemple part)
the second will be the stalker as they seem to rely too much on furtivity and ability to choose their fight for being effective and aloready in siren and war it seems that almost every body can spot them at miles. so withtheir low life they are easy target - not to mention that i tend to make AN AS almost impossible so take them their more high damage attack ans placate seems to not permite to place it during a scrappy fight anymore.

all to say that i clearly see unbalance on the vilain and the hero AT. i can be wrong and am opened to discussion if polite and constructive.
i wanted to post cause when i read all the tread i saw (or had the wrong impression, it can be possible) that _NORTON_ point had been eluded andhe was pointing the dom prob that was a good point i think.