Myths about hero/villain unbalance

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and kin.. what? are u saying i dot know anything about PvP? then that must mean u know it all, to be able to make that judgment.. and even as i asked u for suggestions and advices, u act as if u where friendly, when u really laughed at me behind my back?

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I have no idea where that has come from and if anyone can say where I've said Dr. Deatrh has no knowledge, please do as my post clearly states the 'Union Leader' channel, not 'Dr. Death'.

I was NOT referring to Dr Death but was referring to a general conversation that went on for several hours last night among a most of the VG leaders on this channel.

Any suspicion of a personal attack on Dr. Death is ENTIRELY imagined. Death, you are being over sensitive due to recent criticisms levelled at you and I think i'm actually telling people NOT to turn this thread into a flamewar.

Everyone, stop it now and take this thread back to what it was about.

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I think we need to start a thread about words like Blastvoke and Scrapfiance.

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I'm pretty sure I coined the last one after the SR +Res changes, but they are excellent words.

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Could have meant Sonic Resonance? Since +Res buffs were mentioned, I think that might make more sense .

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What kind of numpty would refer to Sonics as SR though? SR has, does, and will forever refer to the powerhouse of a set that is Super Reflexes.

On a seperate note and back to some of the questions raised. It seems that, yes I am being a fart brain when talking about SR(Super Reflexes). I thought both Ice Armour and SR were Resistance based sets?

For example, if we were to take a RES based stalker for a pentad team, what should we be doing as a team to use him most effectively in order of priority?

- Buff his damage
- Buff his ACC
- Buff his RES
- Buff his defence
- Debuff his targets defence
- Debuff his targets RES
- Debuff his targets damage
- Debuff his targets ACC

My gut reaction is to buff his defence as he already has RES so you can get a balance but from what I've seen and the fact min/maxing plays such a big part, i'm guessing i'm completely wrong?

Then there are all the other buffs and debuffs such as invis and end buffs, slows etc.

I'm guessing a */Thermal is probably the most useful in a pentad for the shields, heals, buffs and debuffs?

/thermal all the way. I wouldn't take any other corruptor into a pentad, I don't think.

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yes I am being a fart brain

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Not a fart-brain, just having a brain-fart - where a normally sound mind decides to take a wander for a bit whilst the rest of the body continues as normal.

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I thought both Ice Armour and SR were Resistance based sets?

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*shakes head* Both Def (although the passive shields in SR give +Res when HP dips below a certain amount).

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For example, if we were to take a RES based stalker for a pentad team, what should we be doing as a team to use him most effectively in order of priority?

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Just FYI, until I7 there won't be any Res based stalkers (Dark Armor), unless you count the minimal +Res passives in EA and Regen.

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My gut reaction is to buff his defence as he already has RES so you can get a balance but from what I've seen and the fact min/maxing plays such a big part, i'm guessing i'm completely wrong?

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For stalkers, you're better off buffing his Stealth (with Grant Invis) and damage and acc if possible (with Forge, Acc Metab, etc) if they're playing the role of Assassin. If they're going to be more Scrappery, then as much Res, Def, and +Regen as you can manage.

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I'm guessing a */Thermal is probably the most useful in a pentad for the shields, heals, buffs and debuffs?

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Tentatively, I'd say yes. I'd say there's scope for /Cold and /Sonic to prove equally viable, depending on what you want to achieve. In 8-man+ events, then /Kin and /Dark could work well too, or even /Traps (if you're highly imaginative).

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I'm guessing a */Thermal is probably the most useful in a pentad for the shields, heals, buffs and debuffs?

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personally i think its very close between /thermal and /sonic with thermal just slightly ahead, of course in such a crucial role the player must be very good to maximise these sets with buffing, debuffing and staying alive

edit: a good player with /kin cud also support the team very well

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personally i think its very close between /thermal and /sonic with thermal just slightly ahead, of course in such a crucial role the player must be very good to maximise these sets with buffing, debuffing and staying alive

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It's also worth noting for the record that (unlike Empath heals) the Thermal heals all have a rooting animation - which is quite a disadvantage as far as PvP is concerned.

I note with interest that, in a discussion about villain vs hero balance, there has not been a single mention of Dominators.

No analysis of balance issues can be complete without taking into account the well established issues Dominators have in PvP. I don't intend to go into detail about the various Dominator issues here, it's been covered in depth elsewhere and anyone interested can easily find very well informed discussions, particularly on the US boards.

The important point here is that the devs have themselves acknowledged that Dominators need a boost in PvP and have said they will introduce changes in future with this is mind. So the imbalance is not a ‘myth’.

There certainly are skill differences between villain and hero teams, and I would agree that the top teams are very much better at PvP than a casual pick up group could ever hope to be, and that the top teams are by and large hero teams.

However, this is far from the whole picture, and to say that the ENTIRE difference between heroes and villains is down to skill, and that fundamental imbalances in game mechanics play no part or do not exist, is to deny that Dominators (for example) are underpowered in PvP, which is to fly in the face of the opinion held by the devs themselves. And if the villain control AT is underpowered it follows that villains must logically be underpowered as a whole, relative to heroes.

There are other balance issues too, particularly where arena matches are concerned. For example, Masterminds are disadvantaged due to having to spend considerable time summoning and buffing pets before they can reach full effectiveness. This issue has also been acknowledged by the developers and changes to the mechanics have been promised to rectify this issue, too.

I’m sure others can think of still more examples. But my point is not to create an exhaustive list of imbalances, but to point out that imbalances in the game mechanics between villains and heroes do exist, have been recognised by the people who actually made the game, and are slated for a fix in the not to distant future. To say that it’s all a myth is therefore demonstrably incorrect.

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For stalkers, you're better off buffing his Stealth (with Grant Invis) and damage and acc if possible (with Forge, Acc Metab, etc) if they're playing the role of Assassin. If they're going to be more Scrappery, then as much Res, Def, and +Regen as you can manage

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Good point. But Kin's question can be moved to the brutes. What if a brute has +RES? Is it best to give him RES buffs to cap him (or attempt to cap him anyways) or is it better to give him +DEF buffs so he's got allround damage prevention? The same could be asked for +DEF brutes but the other way around ofcourse.

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edit: a good player with /kin cud also support the team very well

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How exactly would you have the kin act then? Just SB and ID like mad? Cause I've had difficulties getting decent fulcrums off since you heroes move around all the friggin time :P
Ofcourse I'm not particularly good at PvP at all, I would like to know how you'd like to see a kin act?

Well SB and ID(edit) everyone(or at least damagedealers) for sure, and maybe pin down targets with siphon speed.

Kinetics used to be pretty good in end draining (transference, transfusion) afaik, is it worthy tactic anymore?

*/kins are a support AT, and will act simular to an empath. - They will aid the DMG dealers to prevent them having problems on the feild such as Hurricane, Bubbles, slows, and regen and of course speed.

For defence there priority would be to SB/ID and stack them frequently enough - and for offence, you have of course slows, end drain and siphon speed/power - Fulcrum shift is the most amazing power of a Kin set for PvE but for PVP never really seen it used and would never base a tactic around this power.

Once the team is set, then the *kin can attack supporting targets assisting via a team-mate. i.e end draining or slows etc etc. plus whatever there primary is. - normally slowing there DMG dealers and draining them of -DMG is always a good idea - or end draining a Stone tank for toggledropping can also be fun.

Ask a Kin for there SB+SuperJump and you will love them forever

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Good point. But Kin's question can be moved to the brutes. What if a brute has +RES? Is it best to give him RES buffs to cap him (or attempt to cap him anyways) or is it better to give him +DEF buffs so he's got allround damage prevention? The same could be asked for +DEF brutes but the other way around ofcourse.

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The only experience I have with Brutes in PvP is from the perspective of an EM/Fire Brute - not the most hardy of secondaries, but with one application of Thermal Shields and Thaw and the occasional (but not constant) healing, I have stood my ground in Sirens for five-to-ten-minute periods against 3-5+ groups of heroes (last night I managed to stay alive numerous times when facing up against a group consisting of: MA/SR, DM/Regen, Spines/Regen, Fire/Fire [Tank], Ice/Ice [Tank]). Bearing that in mind, I'd say Res is more important - Brutes are designed to take hits, and every Res set has holes in it (except Stone Brutes in Granite, but the -Recharge, -Dam, -Spd in Granite presents its own problems), and every Def set can't help but be improved by more Res.

There's also the issue of gamesmanship - players are more likely to attack a target if they can see its HP moving up and down than they are a target who doesn't get hit frequently, regardless of whether or not that target is the best choice (although this is more prevalent in Zonal PvP than Arena, where people tend to kerb their instincts more). Brutes getting hit is what makes them tick, the more hits you take, the more damage you can dish out - with full-ish Fury, Build Up and Forge, I think EM can pretty much near two-shot any Scrapper not using Dull Pain. (hard to tell accurately, as damage from Blazing Aura and Fiery Embrace could be obscuring my perception). It goes without saying, every Brute engaged in PvP will be pretty much obliged to take Taunt, if only for Fury building.

I actually think the main problem most Brutes face is in running out of Endurance before they can use their Fury. Keeping opponents in range long enough to use it is also an issue, but one that can be worked around.

Transference is a nice power, but on a foe without resists, you drain about 40% of their end bar (with 3 End Mod slots). On something with end resists (like a /dark brute), the power is fairly useless (except to recover endurance ofcourse) by itself.
My primary is energy which only has knockback has secondary effect, which is probably the least usefull in pvp, so I won't find a great deal of help there

So you think +RES buffs are best Syn? I just wonder what it would be like to have /EA brutes running about that have so many def buffs on them they only get hit by the 1 in 30 rule the game has...would be kinda impressive

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So you think +RES buffs are best Syn? I just wonder what it would be like to have /EA brutes running about that have so many def buffs on them they only get hit by the 1 in 30 rule the game has...would be kinda impressive

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Impressive yes, feasible... unlikely, but possible. You'd need a couple of /Cold Corruptors and FF MMs to have any chance of doing it, but a well-slotted Empath and a well-slotted Blaster/Scrapper with FA will still probably scythe through their defence.

(I think there's still very much a place for EA Brutes in PvP, though.)

Hmm good point. I'd be interested to see how an /EA does against a scrapper with 3-slotted FA (tohit-slotted mind you) when he's buffed by a bubbler and/or cold corr....

Just out of interest though, why would anyone attack a brute if there is a corrupter nearby to kill first?

Unless taunted i guess but there are ways round that now.

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Just out of interest though, why would anyone attack a brute if there is a corrupter nearby to kill first?


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why wouldn't you?

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Hmm good point. I'd be interested to see how an /EA does against a scrapper with 3-slotted FA (tohit-slotted mind you) when he's buffed by a bubbler and/or cold corr....

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He would hit right through it with little problems. The idea of stacked def grants you something res cant give you. Protection from mez effects.
If a troller cant hit you, he cant mez you.

About therms in pentads.

Bringing any other corr than a therm would be plain stupid, if you are gonna fight heroes. They add almost as much res as a sonic, they can grant mez protection the most common mez effect, they are by far the best healers villains get, they have one of the best single target buffs in the game, they give +acc, they have nasty debuffs, they can give slow protection.

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Bringing any other corr than a therm would be plain stupid, if you are gonna fight heroes. They add almost as much res as a sonic, they can grant mez protection the most common mez effect, they are by far the best healers villains get, they have one of the best single target buffs in the game, they give +acc, they have nasty debuffs, they can give slow protection.

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But their anti-mez lacks fear and confuse res - granted, that's not problem for most arena pentad matches which last long enough for you to just use breakfrees in order to negate the problem (my major gripe with pentads, for the record), but it's a big problem for Bloody Bay and Sirens Call, where villains only chance of a clickie anti-fear/confuse comes from Stimulant.

Bit OT, but I think one of either Thaw or Forge needs buffing until someone can convince me otherwise.

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Bit OT, but I think one of either Thaw or Forge needs buffing until someone can convince me otherwise.

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Yeah, I keep tossing around the idea of making a post on suggestions about it, but haven't bothered since I doubt it would get listened to. Aside from the lack of confuse and fear res, Thaw also doesn't grant +Perception. That seems to me like a little too much of a hit for slow res and a tiny bit of cold res. It also leaves villains without any targetted +Perception powers until 35, and being realistic... how many Sonics are there around?

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Bit OT, but I think one of either Thaw or Forge needs buffing until someone can convince me otherwise.

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Yeah, I keep tossing around the idea of making a post on suggestions about it, but haven't bothered since I doubt it would get listened to. Aside from the lack of confuse and fear res, Thaw also doesn't grant +Perception. That seems to me like a little too much of a hit for slow res and a tiny bit of cold res. It also leaves villains without any targetted +Perception powers until 35, and being realistic... how many Sonics are there around?

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it also only lasts 60secs as aposed to CM's 90secs duration

edit: altho i dont think we shud be discussing this as the only outcome of this conversation i can see happening would be a nerf to CM rather than a boost to Thaw

Thaw adds slow protection! Do you have any ideas how awesome that is?

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Just out of interest though, why would anyone attack a brute if there is a corrupter nearby to kill first?


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why wouldn't you?

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Why wouldnt I? Well why attack a shielded AT being healed over a non shielded AT with less health doing the healing?

A blaster could probably still do it easily but still dont see, unless your taunted, why you would go for brute 1st tbh.

Edit: Not trying to be funny, really like to know incase I should be .

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Thaw adds slow protection! Do you have any ideas how awesome that is?

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IMO, not awesome enough to make up for the loss of fear and confuse res, and perception.

I'd love to know how good the slow res is. I know when doing some Tsoo missions it seemed pretty much useless at helping Syn's brute, who'd had his speed siphoned. Thankfully, we had a kin to SB him, which did help.