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So, because some sets can't handle certain abilities those abilities should be nerfed? I don't know about you, but I actually prefer boosting innefective powers instead of powers that work properly. Give Dark Armour some inherent resistance to toggle knocking instead for example.
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...which is the same thing as making toggle dropping less effective.
Making certain toggles drop-resistant is exactly what tanks and scrappers have been asking for.
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So, because some sets can't handle certain abilities those abilities should be nerfed? I don't know about you, but I actually prefer boosting innefective powers instead of powers that work properly. Give Dark Armour some inherent resistance to toggle knocking instead for example.
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...which is the same thing as making toggle dropping less effective.
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Uh, no it's not. It would just make it less effective against Dark Armour scrappers in this example. Not against every AT.
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So, because some sets can't handle certain abilities those abilities should be nerfed? I don't know about you, but I actually prefer boosting innefective powers instead of powers that work properly. Give Dark Armour some inherent resistance to toggle knocking instead for example.
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...which is the same thing as making toggle dropping less effective.
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No, it's not. What Mes is suggesting is that certain toggles (like mez reistance) are harder to drop than others. Toggle knocks will be just as effective, but it'd even the playing fuild as you couldn't hold+toggle knock a scrapper and just violate him quite so easily.
That's different from lowering how effective toggle knocking is accross the board.
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Do I think that it should be reigned in? Yes, a bit. Especially as /energy and /elec have sleeps/stuns on their toggle knockers. Maybe reduce the duration, or the chance to drop two toggles?
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Which is pretty much where I stand - I'd reduce the 100% chance on the first to a lower percentage, and definitely remove the extra toggle-dropping chance, possibly giving Ice and Fire a higher chance to drop toggles than En and Elec.
@Synaesthetix
"Here, take some more bees with you. You may need them."
Union: FU//LoUD
"that Syn is that that" - Mothers Love
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So, because some sets can't handle certain abilities those abilities should be nerfed? I don't know about you, but I actually prefer boosting innefective powers instead of powers that work properly. Give Dark Armour some inherent resistance to toggle knocking instead for example.
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...which is the same thing as making toggle dropping less effective.
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Uh, no it's not. It would just make it less effective against Dark Armour scrappers in this example. Not against every AT.
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You think Defenders are desperately bothered about Combat Jumping being knocked off? The fuss about toggle dropping is being made because blasters can knock toggles off, stun and then kill any tank or scrapper that relies on them, in seconds. So yes, I'm talking about all tanks pre-32 the fact that a blaster can do that to a tank makes a nonsense of the AT.
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1. They're pretty much perma-able in a team, using the proper buffs. 2. I don't think i've ever seen a Tank, Scrapper, Brute or Stalker running around Warburg without these powers up, so the fact that these are not perma-able is kinda irrelavent. They players using these powers usually won't go into a fight without them up.
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I must be doing something wrong then, because I only ever start Elude when the alternative is imminent death (less than 1/4 health, and the cookie-cutter Ice/En has just pumped Aim, Build Up...). I don't like starting fights on a timer if I can help it, and I don't really see the point in only fighting when you're running your uber power... *shrugs*
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So, because some sets can't handle certain abilities those abilities should be nerfed? I don't know about you, but I actually prefer boosting innefective powers instead of powers that work properly. Give Dark Armour some inherent resistance to toggle knocking instead for example.
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That's one way to go about it, but - and it's easy to forget - Tanks, Scrappers, and Brutes aren't the only ATs that rely on toggles for protection. Arguably, certain Defender, Corruptor, Dominator and 'troller builds rely more on their toggles (not Combat Jumping 
), and can be taken out with considerably greater ease by Blasters. Patching things up piecemeal might solve the problem somewhat, but it still leaves room for errors, and keeps this problem in the system.
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Well by that reasoning we should just remove all AT's from the game then. Blasters and stalker will rule the low to mid end of the game, but Tanks and especially Scrappers greatly benefit from the higher end game. Try going up against a good scrapper in Warburg, and pray he doesn't one shot you with a crit Eagle's Claw, Head splitter etc...
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Because there are problems with the system, we should just forget about them and write it off as a bad job? Sorry, I don't buy into that mindset, and I hope the Devs don't either (and they appear not to). I'm not saying I have all or even any of the answers, but we can at least start by correcting known disparities and see where we go from there.
@Synaesthetix
"Here, take some more bees with you. You may need them."
Union: FU//LoUD
"that Syn is that that" - Mothers Love
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You think Defenders are desperately bothered about Combat Jumping being knocked off? The fuss about toggle dropping is being made because blasters can knock toggles off, stun and then kill any tank or scrapper that relies on them, in seconds. So yes, I'm talking about all tanks pre-32 the fact that a blaster can do that to a tank makes a nonsense of the AT.
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But that Tank or Scrap is pretty much impossible to kill for a solo blaster in the 32+ game. See how it all balances out there? A global nerf to toggle knocking will affect every AT, including trollers and defenders that have some minor toggle knocking abilities. Also some other AT's will be impossible to kill then, like FF Masterminds. I say, just buff the powersets that are mostly affected by togglknocks(DA, Ice, Fire), but leave the system itself alone.
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But that Tank or Scrap is pretty much impossible to kill for a solo blaster in the 32+ game.
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As has been said, many times, many ways - PvP in CoH isn't balanced for the solo player.
@Synaesthetix
"Here, take some more bees with you. You may need them."
Union: FU//LoUD
"that Syn is that that" - Mothers Love
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Well by that reasoning we should just remove all AT's from the game then. Blasters and stalker will rule the low to mid end of the game, but Tanks and especially Scrappers greatly benefit from the higher end game. Try going up against a good scrapper in Warburg, and pray he doesn't one shot you with a crit Eagle's Claw, Head splitter etc...
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Because there are problems with the system, we should just forget about them and write it off as a bad job? Sorry, I don't buy into that mindset, and I hope the Devs don't either (and they appear not to). I'm not saying I have all or even any of the answers, but we can at least start by correcting known disparities and see where we go from there.
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mmm, maybe scaling toggle knocking effectiveness with level? Like how mez protection improves per level. Might balance things out a bit in the lower end game, while not nerfing toggle dropping completely in the high end game.
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But that Tank or Scrap is pretty much impossible to kill for a solo blaster in the 32+ game.
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As has been said, many times, many ways - PvP in CoH isn't balanced for the solo player.
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So what's the problem then? I know blasters can solo tanks and scraps in the lower end game. They can't in the higher end game. Problems solved. The end.
I think what I'm saying is toggle-dropping itself should be reduced a little globally and some toggles should provide some resistance to toggle-dropping, a bit like Crystal Armour in Stone does for Def-Debuffs. I think both can be done without removing toggle dropping altogether.
There's another issue about the overwhelming discrepancy between the PvE experience (especially for tanks/scrappers) and the first PvP, it can be extremely discouraging for those new players and it's far worse at the low end. This is killing the PvP game for new players.
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You think Defenders are desperately bothered about Combat Jumping being knocked off? The fuss about toggle dropping is being made because blasters can knock toggles off, stun and then kill any tank or scrapper that relies on them, in seconds. So yes, I'm talking about all tanks pre-32 the fact that a blaster can do that to a tank makes a nonsense of the AT.
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But that Tank or Scrap is pretty much impossible to kill for a solo blaster in the 32+ game. See how it all balances out there? A global nerf to toggle knocking will affect every AT, including trollers and defenders that have some minor toggle knocking abilities. Also some other AT's will be impossible to kill then, like FF Masterminds. I say, just buff the powersets that are mostly affected by togglknocks(DA, Ice, Fire), but leave the system itself alone.
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I hopefully have a blaster coming over from the US servers that should be able to essentially one shot through PFF and isnt a /em
In my opinion if toggle dropping is to stay as it is the huge damage that blasters can dish out would need to be addressed, and that in turn would mess up pve. I think that the percentages will be lowered for blasters as this is the path of least resistance.
Personally I dont have a problem with the way it is now though I did delete my lvl 34 Inv brute because it was a joke in PVP with easy detoggling and long activation animations, so i can see problems with the status quo
**Acceptable "support" responses**
Its your fault
Its your computers fault
Its your ISPs fault
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By how much?
Obviously not so much that it makes blasters totally unviable in any kind of melee pvp situation, but enough to give everyone a chance and remove that bloody 'YOU POPPED A PURP!!1 N00b!1' problem.
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What does purple insps have o do with toggle dropping??
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Holds....? Mez protection?
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So what's the problem then? I know blasters can solo tanks and scraps in the lower end game. They can't in the higher end game. Problems solved. The end.
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I know (and you know) blasters who can solo pretty much anything in the higher end of the game perhaps not specific people but certainly any AT
**Acceptable "support" responses**
Its your fault
Its your computers fault
Its your ISPs fault
i have no problem with my tanks toggles being dropped, just dont stand toe to toe with them, find a way to fight it and do it, even with no toggles u still have a self heal and far more HP than a blaster...
too many tanks think they can just stand there and shud not be able to die which is why they winge about toggle dropping, i think its good and wouldnt change it
edit: i think what needs to be changed is the reduction of animation times of toggle activations like energy toggles instead of standing in a stupid pose for ages
It's not just those AT's.
Defenders will be high on the list as they're easy kills (mostly), Blasters new to PvP will go down so God damn fast it's not even funny, Controllers will drop a hold or two and then die because people know to bring BF's.
Yes, PvP is a big learning curve, but that's no excuse to make toggle dropping sub standard. Thing is, reducing the chance for one toggle knock will mean that a bad attack chain will mean the Blaster's going down. Hell, without buff's, they're pretty easy to take anyway.
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mmm, maybe scaling toggle knocking effectiveness with level? Like how mez protection improves per level. Might balance things out a bit in the lower end game, while not nerfing toggle dropping completely in the high end game.
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That would be a great solution, and it's one I've advocated before. I still think that the top values should be reduced and/or certain toggles in specific sets should have (scaling?) resistance to being dropped.
Much like Filth, I'd rather have small changes at both ends than larger changes at one to the exclusion of the other. Getting a more balanced system, as opposed to "x beats y at point 1, but y beats x at point 2" will encourage more people to PvP - or at least, hopefully reduce the numbers of discouraged people.
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edit: i think what needs to be changed is the reduction of animation times of toggle activations like energy toggles instead of standing in a stupid pose for ages
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And definitely this, rooting animations for toggles are a big no-no for PvP.
@Synaesthetix
"Here, take some more bees with you. You may need them."
Union: FU//LoUD
"that Syn is that that" - Mothers Love
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I hopefully have a blaster coming over from the US servers that should be able to essentially one shot through PFF and isnt a /em
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I'd like to see that. Hell my Ice/Ice could probably do it with enough Insights, but i'm guessing you're not talking about that.
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I know (and you know) blasters who can solo pretty much anything in the higher end of the game perhaps not specific people but certainly any AT
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That doesn't really make sense. People play the AT's. A good scrapper or Tank has a very good chance to take out a solo blaster, at least a much better chance of that blaster taking out that scrapper or tank.
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i have no problem with my tanks toggles being dropped, just dont stand toe to toe with them, find a way to fight it and do it, even with no toggles u still have a self heal and far more HP than a blaster...
too many tanks think they can just stand there and shud not be able to die which is why they winge about toggle dropping, i think its good and wouldnt change it
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What he said
Without having anything creative to add.. i'll just say im a little paranoid about this. I can see how toggleknocking can be a problem for certain builds, but if they dont get this right, it could just throw the toggleknocking effect into further unbalance.
Certain individual powers having knock-resistance sounds fair though. Although I love my little safe haven inside me PFF, i'd hate to think that they'd be making it harder for you guys to knock me out of it (when its already a hellish task, right?)
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Although I love my little safe haven inside me PFF, i'd hate to think that they'd be making it harder for you guys to knock me out of it (when its already a hellish task, right?)
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It can be very hard when you lack certain powers to boost your acc to such high levels that your head will explode. Still there's always a 5% chance to hit through i guess.
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i have no problem with my tanks toggles being dropped, just dont stand toe to toe with them, find a way to fight it and do it, even with no toggles u still have a self heal and far more HP than a blaster...
too many tanks think they can just stand there and shud not be able to die which is why they winge about toggle dropping, i think its good and wouldnt change it
edit: i think what needs to be changed is the reduction of animation times of toggle activations like energy toggles instead of standing in a stupid pose for ages
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I don't entirely disagree with you, however, tanks have to rely on BFs for one thing and mobility for another. A decent blapper will destroy you in seconds through stuns and damage. You can't re-toggle if you're stunned and the damage output of a blapper far exceeds stun time. It's possible to play like this but hardly very effectively against someone who knows what they are doing. Tanks are currently absurdly under-powered in PvP.
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I know (and you know) blasters who can solo pretty much anything in the higher end of the game perhaps not specific people but certainly any AT
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That doesn't really make sense. People play the AT's. A good scrapper or Tank has a very good chance to take out a solo blaster, at least a much better chance of that blaster taking out that scrapper or tank.
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Sorry perhaps I should have explained myself better, there are blasters who can tear apart pretty much any build even in the high lvls. When I said not specific people I mean that some people can take a build and make it do things that other people cannot and as such can be nigh on impossible to kill but these are the exception. A good player has a good chance of taking out anyone else but good players are not that common, there are plenty of decent players out there but Vs a good player they will usually go down regardless of AT
JIMO of course
**Acceptable "support" responses**
Its your fault
Its your computers fault
Its your ISPs fault
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Besides, If my blaster for example would be on the other side,I think Id just 5-shot my tank and proceed to beat the defender to bloody pulp.
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Wait, so you reckon you could 5-shot a Tank with an Empathy Defender sitting behind him? Nah, don't think so.
World of Jackcraft.
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Besides, If my blaster for example would be on the other side,I think Id just 5-shot my tank and proceed to beat the defender to bloody pulp.
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Wait, so you reckon you could 5-shot a Tank with an Empathy Defender sitting behind him? Nah, don't think so.
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I cant even kill a squishie with a good empath backing him.
50s
controllers: Ill rad , grav rad, fire kin, ice kin
blaster: ice em
scrapper: spines sr
I would have doubts about a Blaster at the damage cap would be able, to be honest.
World of Jackcraft.
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Elude, IH, Unstoppable - firstly, none of those are perma-able, so the issue of toggle-dropping still remains for the majority of playtime in PvP.
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1. They're pretty much perma-able in a team, using the proper buffs. 2. I don't think i've ever seen a Tank, Scrapper, Brute or Stalker running around Warburg without these powers up, so the fact that these are not perma-able is kinda irrelavent. They players using these powers usually won't go into a fight without them up.
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Secondly, there are toggle-reliant builds that do not have an "uber" power to reduce the effect of toggle-dropping - think Ice Armour for Tanks, Fiery Aura for Tanks and Brutes, and Dark Armour for Scrappers and Brutes - arguably, the latter two powersets are the ones who suffer the most from toggle-dropping (as status protection is spread across multiple toggles in those sets).
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So, because some sets can't handle certain abilities those abilities should be nerfed? I don't know about you, but I actually prefer boosting innefective powers instead of powers that work properly. Give Dark Armour some inherent resistance to toggle knocking instead for example.
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In any event, having a system in place which massively favours a specific AT across a certain range (where two of the in-game PvP zones occur within that range) is unacceptable from a design PoV.
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Well by that reasoning we should just remove all AT's from the game then. Blasters and stalker will rule the low to mid end of the game, but Tanks and especially Scrappers greatly benefit from the higher end game. Try going up against a good scrapper in Warburg, and pray he doesn't one shot you with a crit Eagle's Claw, Head splitter etc...