/Energy Blasters can solo melee AT's in close combat. That is the most important feature and bottom line of this argument. It seems fairly straightforward to me.
The chances of a Dominator having the time to stack the necessary amount of holds on any melee AT in a zone where 1v1's are statistically uncommon is small. It would take less time with Domination of course, but again rarely will you have the time to build this before you enter a fight. Yes, some of the Dom secondaries (if not all? i'm not sure) have toggle dropping powers, but even if they managed to hold a melee AT the mez won't last anywhere near long enough to solo all the health of a melee AT (unless you're fire secondary possibly, i'd like to see it).
In my opinion you can't compare the toggle dropping of a Dominator with the same ability and damage of a Blaster.
~Spoken from the viewpoint of an Ice/Energy Dom.
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Why should being held drop ur toggles? Yes, you can't use ur powers to attack, or do anything but stand still. But your mind is still free to keep those defenses up. Being disorientated should drop toggles as you can't 'think' to keep ur defenses up.
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what about mind control then?
also, holds do have to overcome mez resistance. If I trot along with my tank in sirens, I cant remember losing a toggle to a dom before i was completely held cause he fired up domination. In this case he just overcomes my mez resistance, mezzes me and yes i lose my toggles.
"god, how many devs did hami have to sleep with to get ED?"
Total Cat @Stagefright
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/Energy Blasters can solo melee AT's in close combat. That is the most important feature and bottom line of this argument. It seems fairly straightforward to me.
The chances of a Dominator having the time to stack the necessary amount of holds on any melee AT in a zone where 1v1's are statistically uncommon is small. It would take less time with Domination of course, but again rarely will you have the time to build this before you enter a fight. Yes, some of the Dom secondaries (if not all? i'm not sure) have toggle dropping powers, but even if they managed to hold a melee AT the mez won't last anywhere near long enough to solo all the health of a melee AT (unless you're fire secondary possibly, i'd like to see it).
In my opinion you can't compare the toggle dropping of a Dominator with the same ability and damage of a Blaster.
~Spoken from the viewpoint of an Ice/Energy Dom.
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Was in sirens with my pb and got held constantly by a dominator. Plant/Thorns.
The risk though that a blaster has to be able to 'solo' a melee AT is huge. For a melee AT, they are where they are supposed to be with the tools at their disposal to provide damage mitigation. Yes, blasters melee attacks can guarantee dropping one toggle, not all - which is what happens if held. And /regen only has to bother about the disorient part - i.e. pop a breakfree and pound away again.
The point being is that blasters risk to get into melee combat is far larger than other ATs - and every AT has the option to use a BF. Then those that can hold can hold the blaster, dropping any and all toggles they might have. Yes, they may not be able to do the damage, but that's not their AT description.
I'd be fine with toggle dropping chances being reduced on blasters melee attacks if they up the primary damage to fit the description of the AT.
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what about mind control then?
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had thought about at that, but these are game mechanics - a hold is a hold is a hold - whatever the type doing it.
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also, holds do have to overcome mez resistance. If I trot along with my tank in sirens, I cant remember losing a toggle to a dom before i was completely held cause he fired up domination. In this case he just overcomes my mez resistance, mezzes me and yes i lose my toggles.
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And the blaster also has to overcome ur defence to have a 'chance' of dropping toggles. Not automatically dropping all toggles.
Fact is a good controller can overcome Mez protection in a matter of seconds, from range. That means you've no toggles AND you're locked down.
Other fact is, the blaster has to get in to melee and drop all your toggles, sometimes one by one, and to be perfectly honest, you guys should retoggle when something important gets knocked off. The amount of Brutes and Scrappers I've killed because they don't retoggle is silly.
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Fact is a good controller can overcome Mez protection in a matter of seconds, from range. That means you've no toggles AND you're locked down.
Other fact is, the blaster has to get in to melee and drop all your toggles, sometimes one by one,....
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Exactly.
Since the changes to toggle dropping are, I think, comming from their effective use by blappers does anyone know if other sets are likely to be altered, (e.q. Storm, FF)?
Chances are the will be global but wondering if anyone knows the facts.
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[...] and to be perfectly honest, you guys should retoggle when something important gets knocked off. The amount of Brutes and Scrappers I've killed because they don't retoggle is silly.
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Pretty difficult to retoggle when you're mezzed.
9 out of 10 times my mez protection toggle is [one of the toggles to be] dropped.
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Yes, blasters melee attacks can guarantee dropping one toggle, not all - which is what happens if held.
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Hmm sorry I think we should all get on the same page here..
My en/en blasters combo of Bonesmasher,energy punch has a CHANCE (albeit a small one, like %5 or so) of dropping FIVE toggles with just those 2 attacks.. Regardless of whatever mez resistance they may have. The chance is small for 5 but the chance for 2 toggles must be like 100% and the chance for 3 toggles is very high. Those 2 attacks are also very fast, propably it takes like 2 secs.. After that I have found that in almost 100% of cases the targets mez resistance is gone and I follow up with power thrust or something else.
I remember having an experimental arena duel with my friends lvl 50 ice tank (who didnt have much pvp experience), and he said he jumped outta his pants when I smashed right thru wet ice + acrobatics and dropped all of his toggles in a blink of an eye stunning him in the process..
So far I have had little problems with defenses considering the self-buffage of energy combo. Defense-orientated sets are of course problematic. Proper bubblers (/ff MMs for example ) are difficult, but possible. For instance I faced a traps MMs force field generator which did absolutely nothing to protect the poor fella... Wham Bam 3-shotted.
I don't actually even need to be in melee range, since superspeed+combat jump allows me to skim past the target from low altitude with bonesmasher queued, I will land some 20 yards away and bonesmasher will hit.
I admit Im not the most experienced PVPer yet, but still.
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[...] and to be perfectly honest, you guys should retoggle when something important gets knocked off. The amount of Brutes and Scrappers I've killed because they don't retoggle is silly.
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Pretty difficult to retoggle when you're mezzed.
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Two words.
Break. Free.
Just because you've Mez protection, doesn't mean you're not going to be held/stunned/immob'd etc...
Edit: OK, that was a bit harsh. Yes, I agree toggle knocking needs a bit of balance, maybe drop the duration of stun/sleep, and you could always get a reduction in the chance of the second toggle knock from one power too.
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[...] and to be perfectly honest, you guys should retoggle when something important gets knocked off. The amount of Brutes and Scrappers I've killed because they don't retoggle is silly.
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Pretty difficult to retoggle when you're mezzed.
9 out of 10 times my mez protection toggle is [one of the toggles to be] dropped.
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That's the point. Holds drop ALL toggles and you can't do anything but pop a breakfree to get away. At least you have a chance with a blasters toggle droppers - plus the fact they are in melee range and you as a melee AT can hit back hard. Try getting back into melee range against a troll.
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[...] and to be perfectly honest, you guys should retoggle when something important gets knocked off. The amount of Brutes and Scrappers I've killed because they don't retoggle is silly.
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Pretty difficult to retoggle when you're mezzed.
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Two words.
Break. Free.
Just because you've Mez protection, doesn't mean you're not going to be held/stunned/immob'd etc...
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Three words.
Not. Always. Available.
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[...] and to be perfectly honest, you guys should retoggle when something important gets knocked off. The amount of Brutes and Scrappers I've killed because they don't retoggle is silly.
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Pretty difficult to retoggle when you're mezzed.
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Two words.
Break. Free.
Just because you've Mez protection, doesn't mean you're not going to be held/stunned/immob'd etc...
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Three words.
Not. Always. Available.
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I know, which is why I edited my original post. But if you're constantly being taken down by a (lone?) blaster, then you should stock up on Insps, or develop tactics to counter them (web grenades, mez them first, knockback, bring a team) etc...
Toggle knocking isn't the death knell for Scrappers and Tankers in PvP, it's just something that you need to adapt to.
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Toggle knocking isn't the death knell for Scrappers and Tankers in PvP, it's just something that you need to adapt to.
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I agree, but the fact that it is very effective cannot be escaped. I think we should just remind ourselves of the importance of teams 
Imo tanks need a proper buffing and possibly detoggle defense given to them. Its is primarily tanks who are suffering imo, since all other chars are effective at fighting back. There'd still be whole lotta other toggles in the game to be dropped..
From Private's sig, I agree that good stealth is mucho more annoying imo...
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Toggle knocking isn't the death knell for Scrappers and Tankers in PvP, it's just something that you need to adapt to.
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I agree, but the fact that it is very effective cannot be escaped. I think we should just remind ourselves of the importance of teams Imo tanks need a proper buffing and possibly detoggle defense given to them. Its is primarily tanks who are suffering imo, since all other chars are effective at fighting back.
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Exactly! The whole AT system in CoX is designed to promote teams, as there's always something another AT can lend to a team that will be a benefit.
Tanks have lots of HP, and when buffed, a lot of damage. A good tank in a good team can get kills, a surprising amount infact.
What I would like to know though, is whether you think toggle drops in Zone PvP are worse than in the Arena?
well of course 1 v 1 against a controller you want stand much of a chance with toggledrops.. thats what teams are for. It actually is harder than it sounds to overcome the mez resistance as a troller cause you need to stack your mezzes. In 1v1 this aint hard, just stay out of reach and keep smackin on those holds. However if teams start to get involved you might find yourself in trouble real soon.
"god, how many devs did hami have to sleep with to get ED?"
Total Cat @Stagefright
If your team is taking out the 'troller because he keeps stacking over Mez resistance, yet the Blaster's still splatting your Tank/Scrapper's, then why don't you pay the same attention to the Blasters?
It's hard prioritising targets, but Blasters are squishy, and in a sustained fight they generally go down.
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Was in sirens with my pb and got held constantly by a dominator. Plant/Thorns.
The risk though that a blaster has to be able to 'solo' a melee AT is huge. For a melee AT, they are where they are supposed to be with the tools at their disposal to provide damage mitigation. Yes, blasters melee attacks can guarantee dropping one toggle, not all - which is what happens if held. And /regen only has to bother about the disorient part - i.e. pop a breakfree and pound away again.
The point being is that blasters risk to get into melee combat is far larger than other ATs - and every AT has the option to use a BF. Then those that can hold can hold the blaster, dropping any and all toggles they might have. Yes, they may not be able to do the damage, but that's not their AT description.
I'd be fine with toggle dropping chances being reduced on blasters melee attacks if they up the primary damage to fit the description of the AT.
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Was that Dominator Bilharzia? At level 30 Dominators have one toggle dropping melee power (not 100%). Damage for a Dominator is not comparable to a blaster, a blapper will expect a fight to last seconds against a squishy, for me it's minutes. Dominators are actually more fragile than Blasters, their damage is much much lower, I'm not saying they should have blaster-like damage but at that level its not possible any way near to KO a hero squishy in a short length of time.
I have two ways of holding something with decent mez resist - I might be able to toggle drop their mezz toggle and apply a hold (only if their mezz resist is a toggle), or I build up Domination and overcome their resist that way, even then it takes multiple stacked holds to do this. In anything larger than small-medium fights it's virtually impossible to build up Domination since I can be one-shot by a blaster, or very easily taken out in seconds at any time; given that it takes a minimum of 2 minutes to build up Domination in that environment the chances that I won't ever have Domination available are high.
I have low damage, no armour, no mezz resist, no self heal, low HP (lower than blasters), my best attacks are melee and by level 30 I have two decent damage attacks (decent not great). Almost all blasters I fight are using BFs or SoW, most of my controls that are effective are soft I generally don't rely on Holds having any effect at all.
Fighting against heroes typically I see a number of controllers, defenders, blasters, scrappers. On the villain side it's heavily populated by Stalkers, one or two Brutes. Very occasionally there's a Corupptor, rarely is that Corruptor a Kinetics or Thermal and if they are it's unusual that they have support powers. This is in constrast to the huge pool of support toons that heroes have, so to me to think Blasters are somehow getting a raw deal is just a joke, and to suggest their damage be increased is bizarre beyond belief.
It was.
It's not the melee toggle dropping power that was the problem.
As my pb at lvl 30(37 actual) i have no mezz resist.(roll on 38). It's the holds that dropped the toggles...ALL of them..ALL the time. Any toon without a mezz resist toggle, but perhaps other resistance/defense toggles will have them ALL dropped when the hold hits. Is that not comparable, in fact better than a blaster having a chance to drop toggles?
I'm not suggesting blaster should have a damage increase to their melee powers(they do quite enough damage), but if the melee powers are going to be nerfed then yes, the ranged powers should get a damage increase. They are currently NOT a ranged damage class.
You could have mezz resist if you took acrobatics/cj...same as blasters.
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They are currently NOT a ranged damage class.
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That's right, they're a damage class - with both ranged and melee damage. The greater damage Blasters can do (typically melee) comes with the greatest risk (not having the defences to take melee) - except that at the moment, the safest place for my En/En to be is IN melee, with toggledrop>toggledrop>stun>WINWINWIN. Making it less easy (but still poossible) to drop toggles will help adjust the system to something approaching equilibrium, IMHO - although it stills remains to be seen exactly how Cryptic are going about it, so I'm in "wait and see" mode.
@Synaesthetix
"Here, take some more bees with you. You may need them."
Union: FU//LoUD
"that Syn is that that" - Mothers Love
Did I miss a meeting? Blasters do or do not have the highest damage ranged attacks? It takes very little for a blaster to KO me with 2 or 3 attacks, the precious few that aren't blappers. Toggle dropping is more powerful than a Hold by virtue of the fact there's no defence against it, using a BF or SoW will protect you from Holds *before* it hits and preserve your toggles.
I mean welcome to the club! I have no defences whatsoever. Of course I have CJ and Arcobatics, this has nothing to do with specific ATs since anyone can take them. Arcobatics is not a general Mezz resist - it's KB and Hold only at Mag1.
This isn't a reply to Filth's post i just didn't wanna scroll for the appropriate one ^^
Just to say about re-toggling, i don't know the numbers but the amount of times my Brute has had his mez resistance drop first is greater than that of any other. I don't know if i've just been unlucky, but either way i end up staggering around like a drunken fool, disoriented while the Blaster takes at least two free shots at me. So, before i can even take a shot at him (as he's hopped away a few metres) i have to put my toggles back on to stand a chance. So, while i'm rotted wtahcing the animation come back on he gets another two free shots.
Joy! I can run and attack him" Oh...but my health is looking awful low, oh well i'll give it a shot (one KO Blow and a Haymaker later). Hmm, still not dead, and what's that? The nearer he gets to death the stronger he ge...*faceplant*.
PS: Like Filth said, Acrobatics is only a Mag 1 resist and thus useless against Controllers if they fire off two holds, which is 90% of the time, and i find it useful solely for the KB protection and resisting Freeze Ray.
Would people please make up their minds about Acrobatics 
.
One thread it's Mag1, another it's Mag3 (can take a single hold and resist it), back to Mag1, Mag1, Mag3, back and forth.
So what is it really?
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They are currently NOT a ranged damage class.
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That's right, they're a damage class - with both ranged and melee damage. The greater damage Blasters can do (typically melee) comes with the greatest risk (not having the defences to take melee) - except that at the moment, the safest place for my En/En to be is IN melee, with toggledrop>toggledrop>stun>WINWINWIN. Making it less easy (but still poossible) to drop toggles will help adjust the system to something approaching equilibrium, IMHO - although it stills remains to be seen exactly how Cryptic are going about it, so I'm in "wait and see" mode.
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the point i've been trying to make this whole post is that just because tanks have mez protection it doesnt mean we cant fight without it, if i remember correctly /fire and /ice blasters have no stuns so we're being build specific. a /energy tank has stuns as well as /ss and /stone iirc so the tank can stun the blaster just as easy (i no blaster /energy has power boost but my point is a tank can pop a bf just as easy as a blaster and has more HP and self heals) i just hope this toggle dropping nerf isn't too extreme as i currently have no problem with it and thats all i have to say on this thread 
It doesn't have to overcome resistance - this just reduces the time the hold applies. It has to overcome defence, just as the blasters attack does. And only the first toggle is guaranteed to drop for a blasters attack. Not EVERY single toggle ALL the time.
Why should being held drop ur toggles? Yes, you can't use ur powers to attack, or do anything but stand still. But your mind is still free to keep those defenses up. Being disorientated should drop toggles as you can't 'think' to keep ur defenses up.