Granite isn't toggle-droppable...
World of Jackcraft.
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Granite isn't toggle-droppable...
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as he said and have fought more than enough multiple /EM blasters to know this. He must ahve done something stupid like turn off granite or a rogue hit (I have impaled a scrapper for 7000 hpts before)
the only thing that breaks granite atm is poison gas trap and dark scrapper self resurrection (aside from a crap load of holds)
**Acceptable "support" responses**
Its your fault
Its your computers fault
Its your ISPs fault
o.O
Strange...
Still, toggle dropping could use a bit of attention :S
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o.O
Strange...
Still, toggle dropping could use a bit of attention :S
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I concur wholeheartedly
**Acceptable "support" responses**
Its your fault
Its your computers fault
Its your ISPs fault
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o.O
Strange...
Still, toggle dropping could use a bit of attention :S
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and it is getting attention in i7 by being toned down
By how much?
Obviously not so much that it makes blasters totally unviable in any kind of melee pvp situation, but enough to give everyone a chance and remove that bloody 'YOU POPPED A PURP!!1 N00b!1' problem.
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By how much?
Obviously not so much that it makes blasters totally unviable in any kind of melee pvp situation, but enough to give everyone a chance and remove that bloody 'YOU POPPED A PURP!!1 N00b!1' problem.
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What does purple insps have o do with toggle dropping??
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I toggle dropped a stone tank in granite armour with two brawls today.
Come on devs :/
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Granite Armor, Bright Nova, White Dwarf, Dark Nova and Black Dwarf have been made immune to Toggle Drop effects brought on by Brawl and similar De-Toggle abilities. These powers are still vulnerable to being shut down by Holds and Stuns.
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the only thing that breaks granite atm is poison gas trap and dark scrapper self resurrection (aside from a crap load of holds)
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Or a Dominator in Domination, which is slightly less than a crapload of holds. 
@Synaesthetix
"Here, take some more bees with you. You may need them."
Union: FU//LoUD
"that Syn is that that" - Mothers Love
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I toggle dropped a stone tank in granite armour with two brawls today.
Come on devs :/
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Granite Armor, Bright Nova, White Dwarf, Dark Nova and Black Dwarf have been made immune to Toggle Drop effects brought on by Brawl and similar De-Toggle abilities. These powers are still vulnerable to being shut down by Holds and Stuns.
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Or endurance draining?
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o.O
Strange...
Still, toggle dropping could use a bit of attention :S
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and it is getting attention in i7 by being toned down
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Yay. I have a terrible feeling that then both my tank AND blaster are getting useless in PVP.
Why cant they bloody buff something for a bloody change.
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Yay. I have a terrible feeling that then both my tank AND blaster are getting useless in PVP.
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1) Tanks are getting Gauntlet for PvP in I7, which should make them much more useful/annoying (depending on which side of the battle you're on).
2) Blasters are far from useless in PvP - in fact, I've stopped playing my En/En simply because toggle-dropping makes him feel way overpowered.
@Synaesthetix
"Here, take some more bees with you. You may need them."
Union: FU//LoUD
"that Syn is that that" - Mothers Love
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Yay. I have a terrible feeling that then both my tank AND blaster are getting useless in PVP.
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1) Tanks are getting Gauntlet for PvP in I7, which should make them much more useful/annoying (depending on which side of the battle you're on).
2) Blasters are far from useless in PvP - in fact, I've stopped playing my En/En simply because toggle-dropping makes him feel way overpowered.
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Yes, I know this, my only PVP useful character is en/en blaster.. But I am confident in devs ability to screw something totally over. Besides I don't think gauntlet is going to help me much, with my awesome tanker who can get off 1 attack in 5 secs time even BEFORE being -recharged. And of course the total inability to kill anything.
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Besides I don't think gauntlet is going to help me much, with my awesome tanker who can get off 1 attack in 5 secs time even BEFORE being -recharged. And of course the total inability to kill anything.
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That still means that every "5 secs" that 5 villains in melee range are focusing on you and not the Defender behind you who's buffing you - even a non tanky like me can see the strategic benefit of that scenario.
@Synaesthetix
"Here, take some more bees with you. You may need them."
Union: FU//LoUD
"that Syn is that that" - Mothers Love
There are still numerous ways to bork this. Like making gauntlet duration dependent on the damage caused. Because, as I have said on occasion, I dont do damage.
Besides, If my blaster for example would be on the other side,I think Id just 5-shot my tank and proceed to beat the defender to bloody pulp.
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There are still numerous ways to bork this. Like making gauntlet duration dependent on the damage caused. Because, as I have said on occasion, I dont do damage.
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Seeing as it doesn't work that way in PvE, I seriously doubt they'd go to the effort of rebuilding it that way for PvP. FWIW, the better Tanks I've seen in PvP are the ones that play a similar role to that which they play in PvE, in that they protect the squishies, with damage as support to the main attack - not the other way around.
@Synaesthetix
"Here, take some more bees with you. You may need them."
Union: FU//LoUD
"that Syn is that that" - Mothers Love
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There are still numerous ways to bork this. Like making gauntlet duration dependent on the damage caused. Because, as I have said on occasion, I dont do damage.
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Seeing as it doesn't work that way in PvE, I seriously doubt they'd go to the effort of rebuilding it that way for PvP. FWIW, the better Tanks I've seen in PvP are the ones that play a similar role to that which they play in PvE, in that they protect the squishies, with damage as support to the main attack - not the other way around.
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I have seen suspicicions that it does work that way in current PvE, but I havent bothered to make sure as I don't rely on punchvoke in PvE that much myself. I have tried to use invinc-taunt aura and taunt instead. Maybe that is the reason I dont use punchvoke.. Wouldnt surprise me in the slightest that Mace would be bugged in this fashion..
I have no qualms about defending squishies in PVP, I have qualms about not having the tools to do so. I suspect taunt auras still wont work in PVP..
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By how much? [...]
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Most likely not by enough.
I don't understand why people find toggle dropping such an issue. I can agree that's it's powerful in the low to mid range game, but in the high end game aka 38+ it's already less effective. Toggle dropping won't help you against an Eluded scrapper, instant healing, unstoppable, Granite armour etc... . And those are exactly the kinds of powers you'll encounter a lot in the 38+ game.
To nerf toggle dropping, you're nerfing the blasters that rely on it much more than */nrg or */elec blaster. Those builds can survive on pure damage anyway.
i play pvp tanks all the time as well as other toons and have no problem with toggle dropping at all, don't understand why good powers get "nerfed" just because people can't find a way to fight it
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Toggle dropping won't help you against an Eluded scrapper, instant healing, unstoppable, Granite armour etc... . And those are exactly the kinds of powers you'll encounter a lot in the 38+ game.
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Elude, IH, Unstoppable - firstly, none of those are perma-able, so the issue of toggle-dropping still remains for the majority of playtime in PvP. Secondly, there are toggle-reliant builds that do not have an "uber" power to reduce the effect of toggle-dropping - think Ice Armour for Tanks, Fiery Aura for Tanks and Brutes, and Dark Armour for Scrappers and Brutes - arguably, the latter two powersets are the ones who suffer the most from toggle-dropping (as status protection is spread across multiple toggles in those sets). In any event, having a system in place which massively favours a specific AT across a certain range (where two of the in-game PvP zones occur within that range) is unacceptable from a design PoV.
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To nerf toggle dropping, you're nerfing the blasters that rely on it much more than */nrg or */elec blaster.
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And when I see those other blasters in the PvP zones, I'll let them know you were standing up for the pair of them. Devices doesn't rely on toggle-dropping - or rather, toggle-dropping in Devices is an end in itself; /Fire and /Ice aren't awful either, just not as awesome as /En or /Elec - that said, I wouldn't necessarily be against boosting /Fire and /Ice's toggle-dropping capacity to the detriment of /En and /Elec - but I still think the system needs to be heavily trimmed back from where it currently stands, 100% 'chances' to drop toggles is way out of whack.
@Synaesthetix
"Here, take some more bees with you. You may need them."
Union: FU//LoUD
"that Syn is that that" - Mothers Love
It's 100% chance to drop one toggle, with decreasing chance for another 'knock'.
I think that's fine, the reason /Elec and /Energy are so prevalent in PvP (besides the damage and self buffs) is because they've more than one power that'll knock toggles properly.
Tanks and Scrappers have a lot of toggles, sure a good /em or /en blaster could take those toggles down in an attack chain or two, but what's stopping said scrappers from using things like web grenades, or, you know, actually hitting hard and fast whilst kiteing? And as for tanks, a lot of those secondaries can hit hard, not to mention there's usefull things like knockback/up, stun etc...
(PS, Ice is the toggle knocking sux in PvP as it's got basically no damage to back it up, nice slows though).
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Tanks and Scrappers have a lot of toggles, sure a good /em or /en blaster could take those toggles down in an attack chain or two, but what's stopping said scrappers from using things like web grenades, or, you know, actually hitting hard and fast whilst kiteing? And as for tanks, a lot of those secondaries can hit hard, not to mention there's usefull things like knockback/up, stun etc...
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How exactly do web grenades prevent toggle-dropping? The majority of Scrappers have to be in melee range to attack, ergo they'll still have to be in the same range as the majority of Blaster toggle-dropping attacks - stopping Blasters from Flying/Jumping won't stop their ability to use melee attacks, and Blasters by definition, are better at kiting (in theory) than most Scrappers. Don't get me wrong, I understand what tactics you're trying to explain to use - but they don't prevent the problem, merely act as a hit-and-miss method of mitigation.
Again, I come back to my point that Web Grenade, to use your example, is only available for the last 20% of the game, and one PvP zone; certain useful Tanker attacks (by your definition, which I agree with) don't appear until the last few tiers of the secondary, which excludes them from over half the game, and 2-3 PvP zones - this does nothing to address the problem for the rest of the game, and is pretty unacceptable as a system.
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(PS, Ice is the toggle knocking sux in PvP as it's got basically no damage to back it up, nice slows though).
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Ice also has the least endurance-intensive toggle-droppers IIRC, in addition to the slows - though that might come as cold (haha) comfort to /Ice Blasters.
@Synaesthetix
"Here, take some more bees with you. You may need them."
Union: FU//LoUD
"that Syn is that that" - Mothers Love
Web grenades have quite a hefty -recharge iirc, plus the minus jump will annoy most blasters that kite, and a handfull of good hits will drop a Blaster.
The problem with this debate is that people continually whine (I'm not saying any of you guys, but the US boards are full of people saying toggle knocking is one of the worst ideas ever) without actually thinking that it's down to skill/knowledge to combat said toggle knocking.
I know I can't take down a good scrapper on Extremus or Frozen Electrum, for example, Night always takes me, among a few others (freaking Elude).
Do I think that it should be reigned in? Yes, a bit. Especially as /energy and /elec have sleeps/stuns on their toggle knockers. Maybe reduce the duration, or the chance to drop two toggles?
/e flogs dead horse
I toggle dropped a stone tank in granite armour with two brawls today.
Come on devs :/