Player base resist is 2 now? Didn't it used to be 1?
EDIT: geko on the wonders of mezzing
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Player base resist is 2 now? Didn't it used to be 1?
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I have no idea, I've just reasoned out what I've stated from my experience of what happens running Acrobatics. Everything I've read about Acro says that it's Mag1. If player base is also Mag1 then any ST Hold would break through Acro immediately. My experience is that running Acro will prevent one ST hold.
Therefore, either Acro is Mag2 or player base is Mag1. The fact is Acro does stop one ST hold....(edit)..in fact it seems to prevent only blaster level holds (which I assume must be mag2 not mag3).
Personally, I took Acro for the KB res, the Hold resist has some use but it's very marginal in PvP, a bit more useful in PvE.
OK, just read your post, that's a different way of stating things I've been thinking of it as the other way around.
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You have a base value to each Mez/status effects of -1. If that number goes over 0, you are mezed.
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Edit: gah, that doesn't add up. If you're -2 with Acrobatics, hit by a ST hold (3) your status is now 1, which means you should be Held, which is not what happens.
Another Edit: Well dang it, it seems a ST Controller hold will get through acrobatics, at least Char does 
Blaster Holds definitely don't.
Acrobatics provides protections against Magnitude 3 (as in, it'll take one Mag3 hold).
Your base resist is -1, and Acro is an additional 2, you'd have to be hit by 2x Mag3 holds.
Blaster holds and Controllers holds are both Mag3 (IE, they'll hold an Lt or Minion, or any AT without Mez protection, but require more than one application to get a Boss, or someone with Acro).
Now, a controller can hold straight over Acro if he crits for an additional Mag1 (totalling Mag4). I think it's 1/5 chance, or something to that effect. That is probably what you're seeing when a troller goes straight over it.
Dominators with Domination auto-crit to Mag4 with it, which is why when Domination is up, you can hold a boss with one Mez. Likewise, you'd go straight over Acro.
Edit: When most people refer to 'Mag', it means Magnitude and references the Hold Resist people have. There is, however, an annoying trend to associate 'Mag' with applications, IE Acro resists one hold, so it must be Mag1. I prefer the former as it's a lot more accurate and accounts for things like critting, and resists. 
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Acrobatics provides protections against Magnitude 3 (as in, it'll take one Mag3 hold).
Your base resist is -1, and Acro is an additional 2, you'd have to be hit by 2x Mag3 holds.
Blaster holds and Controllers holds are both Mag3 (IE, they'll hold an Lt or Minion, or any AT without Mez protection, but require more than one application to get a Boss, or someone with Acro).
Now, a controller can hold straight over Acro if he crits for an additional Mag1 (totalling Mag4). I think it's 1/5 chance, or something to that effect. That is probably what you're seeing when a troller goes straight over it.
Dominators with Domination auto-crit to Mag4 with it, which is why when Domination is up, you can hold a boss with one Mez. Likewise, you'd go straight over Acro.
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No, you are wrong on both counts.
A controller will break through with one, single, ST Hold. (I've just tested this with Char). Acrobatics *will* help against Blaster style holds like Freeze Ray.
Dominators do not auto-critical with Domination - their Mag actually doubles (in this case to Mag 6).
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Acrobatics provides protections against Magnitude 3 (as in, it'll take one Mag3 hold).
Your base resist is -1, and Acro is an additional 2, you'd have to be hit by 2x Mag3 holds.
Blaster holds and Controllers holds are both Mag3 (IE, they'll hold an Lt or Minion, or any AT without Mez protection, but require more than one application to get a Boss, or someone with Acro).
Now, a controller can hold straight over Acro if he crits for an additional Mag1 (totalling Mag4). I think it's 1/5 chance, or something to that effect. That is probably what you're seeing when a troller goes straight over it.
Dominators with Domination auto-crit to Mag4 with it, which is why when Domination is up, you can hold a boss with one Mez. Likewise, you'd go straight over Acro.
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No, you are wrong on both counts.
A controller will break through with one, single, ST Hold. (I've just tested this with Char). Acrobatics *will* help against Blaster style holds like Freeze Ray.
Dominators do not auto-critical with Domination - their Mag actually doubles (in this case to Mag 6).
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I find your former point interesting, as I've resisted singular Grav and Ill holds with Acro without issue.
And as for Dom's, I may be wrong there, aye.
I *used* to think Acro resisted ST controller holds, but I've just tested it in Siren's. Char broke through every time. Possibly this is an issue with the arena vs zones? I don't know.
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I *used* to think Acro resisted ST controller holds, but I've just tested it in Siren's. Char broke through every time. Possibly this is an issue with the arena vs zones? I don't know.
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Hehe, knew I had a point before somewhere when we were talking about defenders .
Seems same to me, they cant always be criting.
Interestingly enough, you're right.
Wonder if this is WAI or a recent change, because I sure as hell know I've shrugged off a single hold in team fights before. *sigh*
Come to think of it, I think this is a little off, especially as so many people seem to be taking Acro on Scrappers for that extra hold protection. :\
Just tried Blaster and Defender holds, I'll grab the others tomorrow. Seems ONLY conts go through Acro, wonder if they auto crit now.
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Just tried Blaster and Defender holds, I'll grab the others tomorrow. Seems ONLY conts go through Acro, wonder if they auto crit now.
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The simple explanation is:
player base resist = -1
Acrobatics = -1
Controller & Dominator ST Hold Mag = +3
Blaster (& Defender, Epic ?) ST Hold Mag = +2
For a Hold to work, your status must be above 0. It's less noticeable in PvE since 2 Holds Vs a boss will work for everyone, it's just that Doms and Controllers have greater Mag than they need. I wasn't aware that ST Holds have different Mags for different ATs, it seems that they do.
I think some Scrappers (and other melee AT's) take Acrobatics not for the extra hold resistance, but because some mez protection powers don't have knockback resistance =)
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I think some Scrappers (and other melee AT's) take Acrobatics not for the extra hold resistance, but because some mez protection powers don't have knockback resistance =)
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From top of my head I think its fire tanks, dark scrappers and nin stalkers that need it vs KB.
I think controllers have always had stronger holds, even a Rad controller has a stronger hold in EMP then a defender even though its a defender set. I believe this also goes for sleeps and stun and like powers.
It is interesting that Dom holds seem to have the same Mag as controllers whilst not the same duration (again controllers have the longest duration, I think), -dom or power boost that is.
I really think acrobatics is a strange one because I am also convinced that it has protected me and other people from controller holds. Then again thinking that and it being true are two different thing as whenever Ive tested it one was enough.
As far as I know it is:
Players:- Mag Res: 1
Minion:- Mag Res: 1
Lietenant:- Mag Res: 2
Boss:- Mag Res: 3
AV:- Mag Res: 4
Not sure infact if Elite Boss is 4 and AV is 5 though.
Controller, whether primary or secondary, holds are mag 3 I think, which either suggests that acrobatics is mag 1 and -1 = a hold or it is mag 2 and 0 equals a hold (1+1-3=-1 or 1+2-3=0).
From what you are saying non Dom and Controllers holds are either mag 1 or 2, most likely 2 as I am pretty sure staked hold would brake through acrobatics.
However there could be another important point and that is not all power that seem the same are. It generally accepted that Total Focus is 100% for mag 3 stun and 80% for mag 4. This being the case it could be possible that some holds follow suite thus explaining why people, including me, think acrobatics has protected them from holds one time and not another (not including controller crits).
I know this may seem far fetched as I dont think it has been suggested before but are the hard figures for any of these powers really known by the players? I remember detoggle figures for sets like Force Field and Storm were published by the devs way back so maybe hard figures are known.... just not by me, fore sure 
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Ok very tired, hope that made sense, nn.
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Yes, blasters melee attacks can guarantee dropping one toggle, not all - which is what happens if held.
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Hmm sorry I think we should all get on the same page here..
My en/en blasters combo of Bonesmasher,energy punch has a CHANCE (albeit a small one, like %5 or so) of dropping FIVE toggles with just those 2 attacks.. Regardless of whatever mez resistance they may have. The chance is small for 5 but the chance for 2 toggles must be like 100% and the chance for 3 toggles is very high. Those 2 attacks are also very fast, propably it takes like 2 secs.. After that I have found that in almost 100% of cases the targets mez resistance is gone and I follow up with power thrust or something else.
I remember having an experimental arena duel with my friends lvl 50 ice tank (who didnt have much pvp experience), and he said he jumped outta his pants when I smashed right thru wet ice + acrobatics and dropped all of his toggles in a blink of an eye stunning him in the process..
So far I have had little problems with defenses considering the self-buffage of energy combo. Defense-orientated sets are of course problematic. Proper bubblers (/ff MMs for example ) are difficult, but possible. For instance I faced a traps MMs force field generator which did absolutely nothing to protect the poor fella... Wham Bam 3-shotted.
I don't actually even need to be in melee range, since superspeed+combat jump allows me to skim past the target from low altitude with bonesmasher queued, I will land some 20 yards away and bonesmasher will hit.
I admit Im not the most experienced PVPer yet, but still.
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Just by reading this u should all realise how dumb this discussion is. Limitate troller holds? More?? If a troller manages to hold u (which is not an easy task, i can tell u) popping a break free u r free to go. A blapper with the bonesmasher+energy punch combo will kill everything but a tanker or a dulled pain scrapper, but yet will mez scrapper, and all tankers but granite ones. Yeah they can pop a break free, but while they do bonesmasher and energy punch should be charged again, so it means no real time for him to use break free and run away (trying and counterattack would only make things worse). Besides theres the fact that u dont even need to run into melee range, since u can just target, and jump to hit safely at range when u land... and yet im hearing that troller holds should be nerfed cuz after having stacked 3 or 4 of them they detoggle u, although they would need 8-9 more attacks to kill a squishy after that? and besides popping up a break free will ruin all that hard work! How can a troller attack a blaster that pops a break free, BU+aim and jumps over u to land 50 miles away and 2shots u with melee attacks from there?? will it do with one insp then???. If trollers cant hold propperly, thus detoggling, and IMO they already cant atm in pvp, how are they supposed to kill? with fire ball at a 40% dmg blasters one does? cuz i think thats the highest dmg attack a troller can have. A break free used on pvp is to me, like an insp that would give u 100% dmg resist against a blaster. If a blaster means dmg, trollers mean holds... but lately trollers only mean nerf.
Now we're on the topic of mez magnitude (sorry about that ), are powers such as the "fire ring" Immobilize power one of the MM ninjas have and Kinetics' Transfusion of a really high magnitude? Because the first of them Immobilized me through Integration in Siren's, and I had to toggle on Combat Jumping to break it. And Transfusion always briefly Immobilize me through Unyielding and Integration (and super annoying that is).
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Now we're on the topic of mez magnitude (sorry about that ), are powers such as the "fire ring" Immobilize power one of the MM ninjas have and Kinetics' Transfusion of a really high magnitude? Because the first of them Immobilized me through Integration in Siren's, and I had to toggle on Combat Jumping to break it. And Transfusion always briefly Immobilize me through Unyielding and Integration (and super annoying that is).
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Transfusion thing is unresistable I think, its very short, I wonder if its a bug of some sort. I don't think the resistances against different types of mez walk hand-in-hand, so it might be best not to try comparing them like this.
Anyway, I don't know who proposed limiting trollers holds, the idea is pretty silly imo. The holds themselves are not overpowered. Only if there wouldnt be break frees available in the game at all, then we might discuss this and im not sure holds would be too overpowered even then. Dominators are worse off even.
I can't remember if my tank has yet been held by a player because of stacking of holds. And if he was, he wasnt in particular trouble anyway. I have tried a duel with Talin le Thaed and Arch sector, neither held me thru stacking of holds I think, but I had absolutely 0 chance of killing them even once mostly because of their secondary, storm. I really don't remember cases of having my tank held via holdstacking, because the cases are propably few and far between and I can have that many break frees The reason I was held against Archy and Talin was because Lightning storm was eating my toggles like popcorn if I went close.
Nothing holds me in unstoppable anyway. (EDIT: but use of it in Arena match is daft. Unstop = give one free kill for the opponent. In a duel maybe, if I can kill them twice in the time period..)
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Yes, blasters melee attacks can guarantee dropping one toggle, not all - which is what happens if held.
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Hmm sorry I think we should all get on the same page here..
My en/en blasters combo of Bonesmasher,energy punch has a CHANCE (albeit a small one, like %5 or so) of dropping FIVE toggles with just those 2 attacks.. Regardless of whatever mez resistance they may have. The chance is small for 5 but the chance for 2 toggles must be like 100% and the chance for 3 toggles is very high. Those 2 attacks are also very fast, propably it takes like 2 secs.. After that I have found that in almost 100% of cases the targets mez resistance is gone and I follow up with power thrust or something else.
I remember having an experimental arena duel with my friends lvl 50 ice tank (who didnt have much pvp experience), and he said he jumped outta his pants when I smashed right thru wet ice + acrobatics and dropped all of his toggles in a blink of an eye stunning him in the process..
So far I have had little problems with defenses considering the self-buffage of energy combo. Defense-orientated sets are of course problematic. Proper bubblers (/ff MMs for example ) are difficult, but possible. For instance I faced a traps MMs force field generator which did absolutely nothing to protect the poor fella... Wham Bam 3-shotted.
I don't actually even need to be in melee range, since superspeed+combat jump allows me to skim past the target from low altitude with bonesmasher queued, I will land some 20 yards away and bonesmasher will hit.
I admit Im not the most experienced PVPer yet, but still.
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Just by reading this u should all realise how dumb this discussion is. Limitate troller holds? More?? If a troller manages to hold u (which is not an easy task, i can tell u) popping a break free u r free to go. A blapper with the bonesmasher+energy punch combo will kill everything but a tanker or a dulled pain scrapper, but yet will mez scrapper, and all tankers but granite ones. Yeah they can pop a break free, but while they do bonesmasher and energy punch should be charged again, so it means no real time for him to use break free and run away (trying and counterattack would only make things worse). Besides theres the fact that u dont even need to run into melee range, since u can just target, and jump to hit safely at range when u land... and yet im hearing that troller holds should be nerfed cuz after having stacked 3 or 4 of them they detoggle u, although they would need 8-9 more attacks to kill a squishy after that? and besides popping up a break free will ruin all that hard work! How can a troller attack a blaster that pops a break free, BU+aim and jumps over u to land 50 miles away and 2shots u with melee attacks from there?? will it do with one insp then???. If trollers cant hold propperly, thus detoggling, and IMO they already cant atm in pvp, how are they supposed to kill? with fire ball at a 40% dmg blasters one does? cuz i think thats the highest dmg attack a troller can have. A break free used on pvp is to me, like an insp that would give u 100% dmg resist against a blaster. If a blaster means dmg, trollers mean holds... but lately trollers only mean nerf.
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One BF counters the troller?
During my Mag testing last night, Xanthus (Grav/Emp) managed to stack 9+ holds on me in a about 10 seconds, over two Break Frees, maybe three.
PvP at Level50 will be interesting, especially with troller's having access to Power Boost in their epic.
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Anyway, I don't know who proposed limiting trollers holds, the idea is pretty silly imo. The holds themselves are not overpowered.
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Hold themselves aren't overpowered. Although since ED i've noticed the duration is a bit silly. It's the fact they detoggle all toggles when applied.
Stacking holds will overcome any resistances but once hit, all toggles drop. Why should this be the case. Trolls/Doms have access to so many holds that multi-stacking is easy. Taking acrobatics seems pointless unless taking it for the knockback resist - which does work against pretty much everything but power push. Surely there should only be a chance to drop toggles once held. The blaster risk is they have to get close - the controllers risk is...erm...none. So the damage isn't great, but they aren't a damage class - but held long enough (without breakfrees it's easily achieved) and it can be done.
p.s. not specifically replying to you Hammerfall apart from my first paragraph.
The problem in part of the discussion here is that duels shouldnt really be emphasized too much. The devs have said on several occasions that PVP in this game is balanced towards teams, and in my opinion they have succeeded rather well.
As far as I understand, the characters play to their strengths rather well, and the best teams seem to be ones that are well-balanced.
The damagedealers: Blasters, scrappers
Enemy damage mitigation: Controllers, tankers, defenders
Team buffage: Defenders, controllers.
I dont mention villains because I dont know how the roles work with them.
If you split those ATs and make 1n1 situations, it should come as no surprise that the damagedealers rack up the most kills.... This does not mean that the concept of combat in this game is flawed, this is just how it is designed. From this viewpoint, the fact that controller has trouble killing somebody should come as no surprise..(did I mention Tainted and japanese water torture before lol)
The best PVPers propably manage to come on top even in situations where they shouldnt But it should not be taken as a given fact.
Imo the tankers are currently pretty bad in damage mitigation, but things will propably change with the introduction of punch-voke in PVP in I7. I wish they'd next make taunt-auras work... (because otherwise Invul is gimped in this sense having a no-damage taunt aura)
Add scrappers to damage mitation too, in PvP they should take the taunt from their primary. It works like a charm.
50s
controllers: Ill rad , grav rad, fire kin, ice kin
blaster: ice em
scrapper: spines sr
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Yes, blasters melee attacks can guarantee dropping one toggle, not all - which is what happens if held.
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Hmm sorry I think we should all get on the same page here..
My en/en blasters combo of Bonesmasher,energy punch has a CHANCE (albeit a small one, like %5 or so) of dropping FIVE toggles with just those 2 attacks.. Regardless of whatever mez resistance they may have. The chance is small for 5 but the chance for 2 toggles must be like 100% and the chance for 3 toggles is very high. Those 2 attacks are also very fast, propably it takes like 2 secs.. After that I have found that in almost 100% of cases the targets mez resistance is gone and I follow up with power thrust or something else.
I remember having an experimental arena duel with my friends lvl 50 ice tank (who didnt have much pvp experience), and he said he jumped outta his pants when I smashed right thru wet ice + acrobatics and dropped all of his toggles in a blink of an eye stunning him in the process..
So far I have had little problems with defenses considering the self-buffage of energy combo. Defense-orientated sets are of course problematic. Proper bubblers (/ff MMs for example ) are difficult, but possible. For instance I faced a traps MMs force field generator which did absolutely nothing to protect the poor fella... Wham Bam 3-shotted.
I don't actually even need to be in melee range, since superspeed+combat jump allows me to skim past the target from low altitude with bonesmasher queued, I will land some 20 yards away and bonesmasher will hit.
I admit Im not the most experienced PVPer yet, but still.
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Just by reading this u should all realise how dumb this discussion is. Limitate troller holds? More?? If a troller manages to hold u (which is not an easy task, i can tell u) popping a break free u r free to go. A blapper with the bonesmasher+energy punch combo will kill everything but a tanker or a dulled pain scrapper, but yet will mez scrapper, and all tankers but granite ones. Yeah they can pop a break free, but while they do bonesmasher and energy punch should be charged again, so it means no real time for him to use break free and run away (trying and counterattack would only make things worse). Besides theres the fact that u dont even need to run into melee range, since u can just target, and jump to hit safely at range when u land... and yet im hearing that troller holds should be nerfed cuz after having stacked 3 or 4 of them they detoggle u, although they would need 8-9 more attacks to kill a squishy after that? and besides popping up a break free will ruin all that hard work! How can a troller attack a blaster that pops a break free, BU+aim and jumps over u to land 50 miles away and 2shots u with melee attacks from there?? will it do with one insp then???. If trollers cant hold propperly, thus detoggling, and IMO they already cant atm in pvp, how are they supposed to kill? with fire ball at a 40% dmg blasters one does? cuz i think thats the highest dmg attack a troller can have. A break free used on pvp is to me, like an insp that would give u 100% dmg resist against a blaster. If a blaster means dmg, trollers mean holds... but lately trollers only mean nerf.
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One BF counters the troller?
During my Mag testing last night, Xanthus (Grav/Emp) managed to stack 9+ holds on me in a about 10 seconds, over two Break Frees, maybe three.
PvP at Level50 will be interesting, especially with troller's having access to Power Boost in their epic.
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ok 9+ holds stacked, 2 break frees... what would have happenned if it had been 9+ blaster's blasts? ANd (i'm not sure about this, just asking) are holds secondary effects? cuz AFAIK power boost only boosts secondary effects
It'll boost the Hold Duration.
I was meaning to construe the fact that trollers are not countered merely by popping a Break Free, especially as they've got secondaries to give them a bit more survivability than Blasters.
9+ Blaster shots? Depends on the blaster, the slotting, who he was shooting at etc... Blasters are better early in the PvP game (IE Sirens), Controllers really excel later on in the game (Warburg etc...) because they've pets and the full range of their secondaries.
To be honest, all AT's have good survivability in a PvP Zone if they know their build well enough. At least, in my opinion.
Not sure about anyone else, but after ED i've found holds to be much more effective, so much so that blasters can't rely only on their primary blasts and pretty much have to have other powers with status effects...i.e. detoggles on punches, ranged holds for those that don't have them in their primaries etc etc.
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Would people please make up their minds about Acrobatics
One thread it's Mag1, another it's Mag3 (can take a single hold and resist it), back to Mag1, Mag1, Mag3, back and forth.
So what is it really?
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Player base resist (2) + Acrobatics (1) = Mag 3 resist total.
A Hold needs to overcome your mezz resist. A standard ST Hold is Mag 3. Therefore a single standard ST Hold will not Hold someone running Acrobatics unless it is from a controller and criticals (so making it Mag4), or a Dominator running Domination (so Mag6), or stacked Holds.
Acrobatics only provides mezz res to Holds and KB, nothing else.
edit: Sorry this is wrong, Acrobatics seems to prevent blaster style Holds, but not controller Holds