Best heal/support secondary?

as a /thermal corr thermal has some fantastic shields (even if they are a bit heavy on the gfx) a great accuracy and damage buff a rez and at the end 2 monster debuffs a team with a thermal and a kinetics thats 38+ can steamroll mishes with Heat Exhaustion -DMG -recovery -something else and Melt armour -def (-res?) you can basically make most AVs be about equal to a moderate elite boss which as im sure you'll all agree comes in very useful. on the other hand ive not really played /kin beyond 15 and ive not rolled a /rad ever though i did find /dark incredibly frustrating when you're not in battle and the brute is on his last legs and you just know he can't take an alpha when starts moving towards the next mob

I think that the best secondary power pool is dark miasma, you get a kickass heal, cool debuffs at start, the best rez power out there, a kickass fear power, shadow fall, and a pet, what more could you ask for.

As the best all round support set, I will say thermal. Most of the reasons have been covered here but as a general recap, it just seems to have a bit of everything. The bubbles are useful, it has 2 very good heals that are the closest there is to an empathy type power on CoV, It has a great single target buff, a nice single target de-buff and a VERY good AoE debuff at the end.

Thermal is very easy to slot into most teams and will always leave you with a role.

The downside, to be an effective thermal, you will need to largely ignore your offensive set as getting the most out of thermal is a slot hungry process. While it can slot into any team, it doesn't 'specialise' as much as some of the other corruptor sets so you can't really min/max it like other builds, versatility is what you're looking for in this one.

There may also be the concerns that after lvl 40, the heal will become less use as CoH shows with empaths. In the early lvl's empaths are great but as you reach the end game, most builds have got defences and self heals up high enough that they'd prefer a buffer/debuffer to a straight healer.

Personally, I have found my Fire/Thermal the most fun build I've played in over a year of CoH/CoV and this is from someone who could never get on with Blasters or Defenders on CoH. A great all rounder for someone who likes variety in a single build but probably can't add as much overall as some other builds.

Hmm...I disagree there. Thermal is the best healing set all round, no question, but its not the best all round support set. It's already been said, but I'll repeat it, there are no end buffs in thermal. Now, many builds may not truly need an end buff, but nearly every brute does. There are some rare brutes that dont benefit from one, but there are also many brutes that still move their end bar if I speed boost them.
Kinetics has heals, end buffs and debuffs, speed buffs and debuffs and damage buffs and debuffs. For all round support, I say we've got a winner :P (the downside is, people need to have the brains/guts to stay close to enemies)

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For all round support, I say we've got a winner

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I'd say the opposite. Kinetics is great but Thermal is clearly better all round. The mezz protection is better, the shields are better, the heals are better, it has a rez and some very powerful debuffs at the high end. It's better in every respect except End buffage, in which Kinetics is king in the land of (almost) no other End buffage.

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For all round support, I say we've got a winner

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I'd say the opposite. Kinetics is great but Thermal is clearly better all round. The mezz protection is better, the shields are better, the heals are better, it has a rez and some very powerful debuffs at the high end. It's better in every respect except End buffage, in which Kinetics is king in the land of (almost) no other End buffage.

[/ QUOTE ]Kinetics also is much better for the corruptor himself due to the massive recharge boosts.

Also, /cold is very good END buffer in the late game.

What makes the mez protection better? They last equally long, and kinetics mez protection and thermal's are identical. Except kinetics doesnt protect from sleep and thermal does (but a simple heal will wake somebody from sleep anyways) and kinetics does protect from knockback while thermal's doesnt. That means stuff like CoT Mages with their continuous knockback AoEs will still have an effect on a thermal's team, but not on a kinetic's team. So how is it better exactly? (cause it seems to me the kin version is better)
Thermal's heal is only better if the team wont stick together at melee range. If it does, no thermal can equal a kinetic's heals. I'll give you the rez tho, there are times I wish I had it.

I will give you this tho, thermal is more userfriendly. It's much easier to support a team with a thermal then with a kinetic. I still think kinetics is better tho.

let us not forget it also gives resistance to energy and smashing (yes thermal has shields but not ont he mezz protection (5% to cold res though)).

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What makes the mez protection better? They last equally long, and kinetics mez protection and thermal's are identical. Except kinetics doesnt protect from sleep and thermal does (but a simple heal will wake somebody from sleep anyways) and kinetics does protect from knockback while thermal's doesnt.

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I'm pretty sure Thaw last 90 seconds to ID's 60, and gives Res to Sleep, Slow and Immobilise, whilst ID doesn't; whilst heals will knock someone out of sleep, that's no good for a Kin if someone is slept out of the range of Transfusion. For me, the most important part of mez-protection is its ability to keep a teammate moving, which ID is worst at out of all the -status powers - even Stimulant. The +damres is nice, and the -KB is useful at times, but the duration simply isn't long enough to be able to keep those buffs applied with any consistency in difficult situations, and can generally only be applied reactively in the course of normal play. I play a number of Kineticists, but at this point I'm seriously tempted to respec into Stimulant for a more wide-reaching reactive mez-protection.

PvP - Therm Rad.
PvE - Kin

Well ID does protect against immobilize unlike you said, but not against slow. Then again, with speed boost in the powerset, I doubt that will be a real problem.
According to hero builder thaw and ID both last 60 secs. This makes them both rather useless for continuous coverage.
I agree, if somebody gets slept outside the heal range you cant wake him. But compared to the complete lack of knockback protection in thaw I'm willing to accept that. (if they get attacked they wake from sleep anyhow)

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PvP - Therm Rad.

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Depends on what kind of support I wanted - Thermal is great (mmm, Forge), but Clarity (Sonic) is the only ally buff in CoV equivalent to CM. Then again, a Thermal with Tactics could provide similar coverage (Fear, Confuse, +Per) to some degree, but you're dependent on everyone being in that radius - and there's nothing like a one-shot (90s?) fix that works all across the map.

Personally, I think Thaw should probably buffed to include Fear res at the very least, given its prevalence in PvP.

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Well ID does protect against immobilize unlike you said

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Whoops, my bad - mind was elsewhere.

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According to hero builder thaw and ID both last 60 secs.

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From playing with my gf who has a Rad/Therm Corruptor, Thaw always seems to last longer than ID.

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I agree, if somebody gets slept outside the heal range you cant wake him. But compared to the complete lack of knockback protection in thaw I'm willing to accept that. (if they get attacked they wake from sleep anyhow)

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If they get attacked whilst slept, they may well be toast. It's personal preference, but I'd generally always take a well-played Thermal over a well-played Kineticist for a support role - though, there are a lot of awful Thermals out there, which probably isn't showcasing the set too well.

There is also far too many awful Kineticists. They forget to speed boost, dont even think of picking up ID, seem to use transfusion only to heal self. Stuff like that. Bah, if you roll a corruptor, keep in mind half of you is supposed to help the team!!! :P

It is their secondary, though, and it's understandable if they want to take their primary powers first and foremost. Kinetics is a really busy set and if you concentrate on keeping everyone ID'd and SB'd and healed and buffed at all times there won't be much time left to actually blast.

That's why I took Fire primary for my kinetics corruptor. Maximum carnage for minimum time spent blasting, provided there's someone to take the aggro first. If there isn't, I concentrate more on the support side. And yeah, I'll probably pick up ID at some point but it's not a priority for me.

Thermal's shields put it ahead of Kinetics as far as damage resistance goes - 20% base resistance to 7 damage types (excluding Psi, and Cold is 10% +5% with Thaw). Kinetics only has similar resistance to Smashing and Energy which lasts 60 seconds, Thermal Shields last 2 minutes.

Kinetics has by numbers one of the best heals but it lacks a single target heal and isn't 100% reliable. Both Kinetics and Thermal are great to have on a team, if you want to actually play a buffer, Thermal is a bit better and bit easier to play.

Lots of Corruptors do not want to play a buff role at all and this seems a perfectly reasonable attitude, what is strange is that I've met a few who choose Kinetics or Thermal and make it clear that they won't buff the team. I've even teamed up with a Thermal who made a long spiel about how annoyed he was to be the only 'healer' on the team. If you want to play an offensive Corruptor, Thermal probably isn't a set you should choose.

It's also true there are quite a few Corruptors who simply haven't a clue about their powers but this is also true of every other AT in CoV.

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It's also true there are quite a few Corruptors who simply haven't a clue about their powers but this is also true of every other AT in CoV.


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Good point

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There is also far too many awful Kineticists. They forget to speed boost, dont even think of picking up ID, seem to use transfusion only to heal self. Stuff like that. Bah, if you roll a corruptor, keep in mind half of you is supposed to help the team!!! :P

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I play a Kineticist..and I haven't taken ID. I do not consider myself an awful kineticist. As I see it I'm a corruptor, not a defender. I'm the primary ranged attacker in City of Villains. As such I need to invest in my Primary. I also want to be able to solo. In fact I've only taken five powers from my primary and one of those I don't even use as an attack (Tenebrous Tentacles is primarily an immobolisation)

I also have a support roll, and since I have already invested slots in my Primary I have less slots to choose from here. I normally team with Brutes (my SG is Brute heavy) and they are perfectly capable of handling status effects without my help. What they really need from me is healing (Transfusion), Attack Rate (Speed Boost), Endurance (Speed Boost and Transference) and Damage (Siphon Power and Fulcrum Shift). As such I have all these powers and use them (a)frequently and (b) effectively. It is unusual in a team I'm in to ever see someones speedboost drop and the Brutes generally have several damage buffs on them - I'm proud to say I've managed to get over twenty buffs on each Brute symultaneously once.

Since I have to be able to Exemplar effectively to help mebers of my SG lower than 35th level I've taken Stamina (which admittedly means 3 slots), but otherwise I'm useless at lower levels. I have also taken the Leaping line for the status protection Combat Jumping and Acrobatics provide me (nothing worse than seeing a teammate die because you were off your feet and couldnt heal them)

Finally I've taken Assault and Tactics

When I'm teamed with less Brute heavy teams I tend to try and work in a few blasts, but I've always got an eye on the team. I know I can turn a disasterous situation quickly wth a combination of Fulcrum Shift and Blackstar, and I know when to do it and when not to. To be effective soloing I've taken Tenebrous Tenticles and slotted it heavily for immobolisation.

As a result of these decisions I do not have any room left for ID, and to be honest in a speed buffed, damage buffed team fights barely last any time anyway so I'd barely get time to use it. If I chose to take it I would have to drop something important...which I dont want to do. The obvious choice to drop would be Tactics, but with my Brute friends I really believe that Tactics provides far more to the team than ID. This is also true when teamed with Masterminds. I suspect if I primarily teamed with other Corruptors or Dominators I would find ID more useful than Tactics. Also Assault and Tactics dont require any effort on my part. With Speed boosting 8 people (possibly and pets), siphoning power, healing, transfusing and fulcrum shifting, most of which require me to posito myself carefully (a small deviation with Fulcrum shift can mean the difference between 1 buff and 5 or 6) I just dont have time to think about ID.

Having said that..I am seriously considering taking it some time between 41 and 50, and it is possible I have underestimated it.

ID is too headwrecking to be using as a buff anyway. Anyone shouting about a kinetics not keeping the team buffed with ID can safely be ignored.

That said its handy to slap on Mr Alpha Absorber and anyone particuarly squishy pre-fight (Dominators for example). But not having it doesn't equate to being a bad Kinetics.

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ID is too headwrecking to be using as a buff anyway. Anyone shouting about a kinetics not keeping the team buffed with ID can safely be ignored.

That said its handy to slap on Mr Alpha Absorber and anyone particuarly squishy pre-fight (Dominators for example). But not having it doesn't equate to being a bad Kinetics.

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I agree with this.

As a kin defender I put ID on
a) anyone who can demezz me.
b) anyone who needs the mez protection or the anti knockback for their job.
c) anyone who says zzz in combat
d) anyone who I want to fill thair buff bar with icons.

a) and b) stay up about 50% of the time at best. d) is just silly.

It's bad enough trying to keep people speed boosted, let alone ID. Of all the powers I have in my primary it is the one I would drop first if I needed too. The main reason I have it is because I would love to have it on myself, so I feel that I can't ask other defenders for mez protection if I don't give them it too.

Where did I say just not taking ID makes you an awful kineticist? I listed 3 things there. You stated you do heal, and you do speed boost the team. IMO that makes you more then good enough. I never said ID was a requirement for a good kineticist, I said a good one needs to at least think about getting it. You clearly have, if you don't think it's worth it, thats your call to make. As long as you keep the team SBed and healed your doing a great job IMO.
I also dont use it to continuously buff a team. But when a CoT mage releases an earthquake, it CAN really help people. I had a great time in my 20s teaming with a dominator friend. With my buffs and heals he could easily tank spawns (even in groups with more then just us 2). Without ID this wouldn't have been possible. Ofcourse, you could also just get a brute :P
Please read my post a little better, cause I never said not taking ID makes you an awful (or even a mediocre) kineticist.

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Where did I say just not taking ID makes you an awful kineticist? ...
...I said a good one needs to at least think about getting it. You clearly have, if you don't think it's worth it, thats your call to make.

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You're entirely right. I'm just overly protective of my right to play the game any way I see fit. I spend quite a while agonising over every decision I make, and leaving ID out of my build was carefully considered and to a large extent based on the people I team with.

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I had a great time in my 20s teaming with a dominator friend. With my buffs and heals he could easily tank spawns (even in groups with more then just us 2). Without ID this wouldn't have been possible.

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Which agrees with what I was saying. To a large extent the powers you take depend on the role you will be filling and who your teammates and friends are. Of course if you optimise for the characters you play with frequently you may not be perfect for pick-up groups, but I like to think I'm always appreciated.

My Brute friends needed very specific things..which I give them. The other day I teamed with a Stone Brute (such an odd concept - a slow Brute) and that was weird, but again I was perfect for him. If like you I worked a lot with a Dominator I suspect ID would be much higher up my priority list.

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Please read my post a little better, cause I never said not taking ID makes you an awful (or even a mediocre) kineticist.

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I'm sorry if I over-reacted to your post, or read things into it which weren't intended.

Bah it's no problem, just glad everything is clear now
I do admit ID is probably my least used power. In fact, I mostly got it for during base-raids and the use in PvE is, even in my case, limited.

The big issue for me with Kinetics and Thermal (and Sonic, but I've met a total of one of those so far) Corruptors is that villains are lacking when it comes to support toons compared with heroes, and this is especially noticeable in PvP. Mezz protection is spread out more thinly when compared to heroes so it's even rarer. ID shouldn't be used like a shield buff if not needed but its an invaluable Mezz-breaker.

Exactly