The one phrase while grouping that really gets me:
By
Afulia,
Posted on: 2006-03-21 15:47 in Masterminds
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Good point actually. Pulling around a corner into a mob of pets (or henchies...) is a great tactic.
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If you're a merc/bot MM though, you can do this yourself as well. 
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Strange, because it's my experience, based on my playstyle, that when one pet drops, then I can usually expect another couple to follow in swift order.
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Not in my experience. If one drops it's usually just one - the only times where multiple pets dropped at the same time were against Wretch and Ice Mistral.
@Synaesthetix
"Here, take some more bees with you. You may need them."
Union: FU//LoUD
"that Syn is that that" - Mothers Love
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Good point actually. Pulling around a corner into a mob of pets (or henchies...) is a great tactic.
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If you're a merc/bot MM though, you can do this yourself as well.
[/ QUOTE ]Any MM can, that's what your personal attacks are for
soloing for me mostly involves pulling using slug into a poison trap, acid mortar and seeker drones with caltrops between my men and the baddies.
On a team, the only time I bother laying an ambush is against elite bosses or heroes, other times it's either send all the boys in using aggressive goto - BAM alpha strike absorbed across all 6 henchmen OR tank with acid mortar (granted its easier to do with stealth and fly) OR send Decoy Dave in to die, but before he dies, the other pets are sent in to take up the slack.
Then once I am confident the aggro is split across my men, I will switch to concentrating fire on single targets.
Also, If I think LRM is recharged, I get big Dave to lead with that 
Sometimes, against a large or tough group of enemies, letting one henchman die is the only way to deal with the alpha, unless maybe you pull one by one which is in my opinion even more boring than lawn bowls.
Mate, did the acid mortar steal your girlfriend or something? Every plan you've suggested involves killing the poor bugger!
If ever there was an industry that needs a better union it's Henchmen. 
At the lower levels I would normally send my pets in first to get things started, while the whole team stands around waiting for something to happen it seemed to get the ball rolling. I have also 'tanked' as my brute by jumping in taking the alpha strike and trying to fire off dark regen before they get the last hit in, I'd say around 30% of the time I got a does of debt for my trouble.
At higher levels with my Mastermind I am more than happy to send in a battle drone to die while the team watches but I normally try to use it as a pulling tactic to make sure the group uses it, bot fires lasers "oh look bot has turned around and is coming back and the spawn is following, best get to work team".
Having played as a mastermind I found that I seemed to be starting a lot of the fights without being asked, playing as other characters I have asked masterminds to send in henchmen and been sure to follow up their sacrifice, I soloed a lot with my mastermind and got the impression from a lot of teams that masterminds were not all that well liked due to getting in the way and what can be limited damage output and crazy aggroing pets, I try to be as best a team player as I can be but even then I'm not always going to find myself on the best team, if they only have one tactic involving telling me to use one of my henchmen as a tank for every mob then I'd rather solo.
Bots/Dark
I open with a simaltaneous Tar Patch and my Pets Alpha. Or with a Boss heavy spawn/longbow with Darkest Night/Alpha/Tar Patch.
My pets don't tank, period. However they do take down most mobs with ridiculous ease. Long Bow and some of the demon types being an exception, even then I don't expect to lose more than one or two in a mission.
If while teaming I was told to play differently based on someone elses perception of my AT, or recollections of dev posts, I would ignore the bossy person. If they kicked me from the team it would be their loss.
My recollection of the beta dev posts are this: There was a discussion that was replied to on tanking where a dev said that MMs could tank quite as effectivly as a Brute. And another where another dev said that you could equate a MM to a Tank, but there were no direct comparisons between CoH ATs and CoV ATs.
Should I expect a blaster to remain at range, a scrapper not to have a taunt skill, a tank not to attack, a defender not to blast, I could go on. Because a MM can tank doesn't mean he should, there may well be a better tactic, than needlessly spending pets.
And whilst I don't hold tanking against the people who do play their MM this way equally those people shouldn't be holding my playstyle against me. This can be said for any AT or build and its something that should be noted.
I'm not saying that MMs should always tank, just that they should be prepered to if the situation warrants it, and when teaming there has to be give and take when deciding stratagy, and that MMs shouldn't treat someone who suggests their pets take an alpha as if they are completly mad, and basically that they treat a team as a team and not a collection of individuals all doing thier own thing.
I really should do something about this signature.
A lot of teams I have been on seem to be either let everyone do their job the way they see fit as long as it isn't detrimental to the team. Or everyone has to play the way the leader sees fit or they'll be kicked. Perpetuating the myth that MMs are CoVs tanks just makes the latter more sure that their idea is correct.
That all said in a team I'm quite happy to use my bots as a rear guard so as to allow others to escape from a teamwipe situation. However I find them to be far better in an offensive role than a defensive role, especially if they are all fully buffed. In that situation I'd be more inclined to just try the alpha strike option, if we win the team are in no danger if we lose the agro is on me, and I can escape quite easily. (I normally hide in plain sight, they all think I'm dead...)
My final word on the subject.
You dont have to tank as a MM but sometimes it's a VERY useful tactic and can save the team's bacon.
And it's always wrong to force people to do play to a style they dont want to. It's far easier to kick them from the team and find someone better.
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And it's always wrong to force people to do play to a style they dont want to. It's far easier to kick them from the team and find someone better.
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So, it's wrong to force people to play a way they don't want to, or which doesn't conform to how you think they should play, but instead of seeing if they can be effective in their chosen style of play you'd rather just kick them from the team? And you see nothing wrong with that statement? o_O
Warning:
The above post may contain Cynicism, sarcasm and/or pessimism. If you object to the quantities contained, then tough.
The usual answer is "I just told them to open up with everything, what do you THINK I'm doing?"
Because my pets ranged attacks are better, I expect to lead off with them. What most people seem to want is "send ur pets in2 mele" as one shining wit put it. The problem seems to be that when everyone thinks of tanking and drawing aggro, they think in terms of melee, because in CoH terms, tanks before epic level are more or less melee-centric. They then tend to wait till your pets have bit the dust before engaging. As someone put most succinctly above, they are not ablative armour, except in an "oh [censored], run away" kind of sense. The bottom line is that my pets (bots, in this case) are not primarily designed to run in and mix it up, they shoot from afar. They still grab aggro that way, though, so stop whining because my idea of how best to get that aggro is different. Oh and for pete's sake come and help while I still have minions left? This aint like using confuse.
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
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And it's always wrong to force people to do play to a style they dont want to. It's far easier to kick them from the team and find someone better.
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.........
So, it's wrong to force people to play a way they don't want to, or which doesn't conform to how you think they should play, but instead of seeing if they can be effective in their chosen style of play you'd rather just kick them from the team? And you see nothing wrong with that statement? o_O
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I think you misunderstood - my impression of what Cuddles said was in the event of a scenario where the player's style of play doesn't fit in at all and they're unwilling to try different methods, it's easier to kick them and find another team member who will - which sounds sensible enough. People can play however the hell they want with my blessing, but that doesn't mean I have to play with them whilst they do it.
@Synaesthetix
"Here, take some more bees with you. You may need them."
Union: FU//LoUD
"that Syn is that that" - Mothers Love
Gideon puts it best.
Sorry dude, I know I said it was my final word on the matter but I was only joking!
I know that robots do some niiice aoe damage so it's definitely a more offensive type of mm.
honestly it was just a joke but I forgot the smiley.
Although having said that, I do kick people from my teams if I don't think they are pulling their weight :P
sacrificing a henchman is a great tactic and if you refuse to do it 100% then you are missing out on a GREAT way of taking the alpha.
I love you like a brother. Touch me. Not there. I don't. I d d d don't like that.
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Gideon puts it best.
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And you can maintain aggro from range... so it doesn't alter the argument one iota, tanking is tanking, however you do it. If anything, it's better to direct aggro from range to my bots, as any AoEs tend not to hit the rest of the team (with careful positioning). If someone's too dumb to grasp that, then that's their tough luck - but "sending the bots in first" != "bots must proceed to melee and stay there". Likewise, sending one plucky bot in to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune is not the panacea for all problems, but it's damn handy from time to time. There's nothing wrong with a little flexibility (just as long as you don't touch Cuddles there).
@Synaesthetix
"Here, take some more bees with you. You may need them."
Union: FU//LoUD
"that Syn is that that" - Mothers Love
Exactly. Being told to send my bots into melee... I laughed.
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
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The few good MMs are simply exceptions to the rule - and there are a few excellent MM players. Heck, I've been on teams with MMs and Brutes and *I've* been the one expected to tank - as a Dominator!
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Thats how i last played my plant/thorn dominater willingly like i see spines/regen "try and keep up everyone!"
My pets are nothing like tanks they are initial cannon fodder (although i can make them herd but not keep aggro) I just cant wait to let them run in despite them being ranged attackers as long as i am sure they will only aggro 1 group and people can run in straight after in a blitz without aggroing anyother group. If anyone dies before all of my pets do its only then have i sucked and thats all that matters for me. Pulling tactics come into play when things look possibly overwhelming for the team.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Well there are situation where i rather send my pets into melee then having them hang back.
Honestly if there is no other healer in a team then me , a dark mastermind with 6 slotted twilight grasp .
Do you honestly think i have to hang back and play with my bots then heal the brute tankers who charges in .
Now the situation is simple i can either hang back play with my droids let the brute run in run off , cause he will sooner or later find out there is no support for his charge.
Or Run in to heal him send my pets with me with a move command to his position heal both of them (my bots and the brute) in one move , now sure i might lose 1 or 2 bots , cause focusing on keeping the brute alive , but more often then anything else did i lose 0 bot .
Simply they stay in that position move with me to the next and my nice healing umbrella keeps them all safe.
Now if i am correct most people here are not willing to adapt to team tactics , or improvise on the fly cause situation demands it .
There are plenty of times where i had to sacrifice one or two battle drones , cause the brute tanker couldn´t surive all the incoming damage (they are scrappers damage resistance after all) , half the team is hanging back admiring the celling or something , infact truth be told once things get going , most MM loses one or two tier one pets in the fight . unless you are fighting your own battle somewhere to the rear always , then in that case not many of your pets are that usefull , infact you dont contribute much to the team do you ? then why heck team , MM class is so easy to solo that you dont even require to team .
In those situations you're still probably better off leaving the bots to churn out damage by themselves, rush in to heal the brute (staying away from the AoEs which will still be directed at your bots), and then drop Fearsome Stare/Darkest Night on the group if they're not already.
Bots in melee are like [censored] on fish, unless you're sacrificing them.
@Synaesthetix
"Here, take some more bees with you. You may need them."
Union: FU//LoUD
"that Syn is that that" - Mothers Love
Nah if i leave the bots to churn out damage , they will definetly die , since some of them attractes aggro they can´t handle , this way i can try to keep most of them alive , while healing the brute .
And make the pets focus on one target at a time while still in my healing umbrella.
Tested it if i let the pets behind they are definetly gone , AoE are a pain but timed it right the brute would have abosrbed the first patch , fearsome stare is up as fast as possible , darknest night didn´t take it on my MM sorry its a excellent AV killer ,
but not necessary for my MM cause endurance cost would never be maintained with a healing umbrella (twilight grasp spawn) , side powers tactics assualt and shadowfall running , chunking out fearsome stare howling twilight incase the twilight grasp hits the famous 5% missrate .
If the pets die so be it , but atleast while they close to me they are able to be healed , if they stay behind they will definetly not benefit from supremacy , and pets without supremacy have BS damage against +2 or higher even fully 3 dam slotted (especially robots master minds).
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darknest night didn´t take it on my MM
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*shudders*
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and pets without supremacy have BS damage against +2 or higher even fully 3 dam slotted (especially robots master minds).
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I don't know what you're doing, but my bots still punt out the damage if I have to leave them for a few seconds. I rarely, if ever, leave them on their own (unless there's a specific reason for it) for more than the time it takes to heal up the members of the team in melee, but it's not as if they go to pieces if it happens.
@Synaesthetix
"Here, take some more bees with you. You may need them."
Union: FU//LoUD
"that Syn is that that" - Mothers Love
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darknest night didn´t take it on my MM
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*shudders*
[/ QUOTE ]I don't have it on mine, I can solo AV's without it
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I don't have it on mine, I can solo AV's without it
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How many Regens/Blappers can you solo?
@Synaesthetix
"Here, take some more bees with you. You may need them."
Union: FU//LoUD
"that Syn is that that" - Mothers Love
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I don't have it on mine, I can solo AV's without it
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How many Regens/Blappers can you solo?
[/ QUOTE ]Oh, believe me, I'll respec it in if I ever decide to PvP
I quite often team with a friend whos a MAstermind, and I can tell you what I expect of his pets (henchmen, minions, call them what you will).<ul type="square">[*]I expect him to keep them out of sight of the enemy.[*]When I run around the corner to him, I expect his minions to be ready to take the agro off me from'whatever I hav pulled.[*] I expect them to bunch up nice and close so I can buff them and heal them[/list]
I don't expect them to die for the cause, because I hate unneccessary downtime. Personally I don't see why anyone has to die.. even the lackeys/henchmen.
Having said that, there is one time I definately expect them to tank. When we are down to an Elite Boss or an AV I know I need them to take the heat. Believe it or not, I'm quishier than they are, and whilst I know I can buff and heal them, and debuff the AV no pet has ever Buffed or Healed me, so in this particular circumstance I would much prefer them ahead of me (and if I do my job right, the mob they are fighting will be doing very little damage very slowly)