The one phrase while grouping that really gets me:
By
Afulia,
Posted on: 2006-03-21 15:47 in Masterminds
Is that more of a role playing decision? I get the impression that Toybox sounds like the sort of person who would want to take care of his toys 
It is very depending on playstyle (RP related optional). Most people seem to think MM's can summon pets nonstop, but all our summon powers have quite long recharge, specialy if you dont have hasten. Add the fact they are pretty end-consuming, pre-respec i had serious problems being able to summon new pets due lack of end and summon-recharge. Since nobody was healing, i had to keep people alive with my poison heal power, even with 2end-red it still takes bites out of my end.
MM's are passive-attacking and active-support. Specialy the FF, dark and poison are extremely helpfull to the team. The more time you need helping out your team, the less you are waiting for a new respawn of your pet-army.
Once i been kicked out of a team, because 'i didnt summon my pets fast enough' and 'i wasnt healing the brute'. No, then i rather solo missions. It seems the only people actualy liking the MM's imho are the stalkers. I keep them healed, buffed and take most agro away from them so they can do AS's alot.
50)Sinergy X/(50)Mika.
(50)MaceX/(50)Encore
Sign the petition, dont let CoH go down! SIGN!
Just send in one pet followed closely by a brute (or just the brute, if you can't survive the alpha you're not a good brute 
) never failed me in my 40 lvls of smash. Just make sure most of the heals go to the brute(s). A team with 2-3 brutes, 1 /kin corr won't have any problems and the MM can do whatever he feels like 
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Sorry, but you are completly wrong there. The design of CoV intends for MM pets to be used as tanks. Brutes are intended as boss killers (the Scrapper role in CoH) NOT TANKS.
If someone says "PETS IN FIRST" they are simply playing the game as it was designed to be played. It the reluctance to commit pets (and if nessasary sacrifice them) that makes me prefer not to team with MMs.
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If so, can you state EXACTLY in a document/help that MM are designed that way? You are totaly free to play your character however you wont (scranker, blapper, defaster anyone?), imho kinda wrong correcting people that play their own style. Besides that.. a pet cannot 'tank', they die nearly instant when they get hit. So you are already wrong in the line that they are supposed to play as 'tanks'.
Where is the good old 'pull one' tactics?
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I was in CoV beta from the near the eurostart. This was posted by the developers.
Pulling is a good tactic, but sometimes there is simply no alternative to charging in.
If the MM sends in 1 or more pet and then the rest of the team fail to follow up, then yes, the MM has a right to feel agrieved, the rest of the team isn't doing its job.
I really should do something about this signature.
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Hmm, Repair, which work once every couple of minutes, and twilight grasp, which strangely enough, as a /traps MM, I don't have. Yep, that'll keep my bots ticking over real well...
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I'm sorry, do you not have a secondary? 
If you do, then how about using it in a way to enable you to do more than just sit at the back of the group, stroking your bots? Cuddles has already outlined one way for /Traps to tank, surely I don't need to echo it for you to take note of it?
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If so, can you state EXACTLY in a document/help that MM are designed that way? You are totaly free to play your character however you wont (scranker, blapper, defaster anyone?), imho kinda wrong correcting people that play their own style.
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Play how you want by all means, but the MM AT is capable of numerous roles - first line of offence, first line of defence, debuffs, buffs... CoV ATs are nothing if not adaptable, easily moreso than CoH ATs - it doesn't take a huge build change to switch from one role to another, and MMs are more than equipped with the tools for this job.
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Besides that.. a pet cannot 'tank', they die nearly instant when they get hit. So you are already wrong in the line that they are supposed to play as 'tanks'.
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A pet may die, many more pets remain, and unless you get squished just around the corner after setting up (hello Lilitu ), you can resummon with relative ease. Seeing as tanking, as a role, is in the attracting and consolidation of aggro, I'd argue that MMs are better than any other AT in this, seeing as we can spread our "aggro-magnetism" over multiple targets (and not just with AoEs). Sure, some primaries can achieve this more easily, and some secondaries can achieve this more easily - but the basic tenets of tanking are in playstyle, not power choices.
@Synaesthetix
"Here, take some more bees with you. You may need them."
Union: FU//LoUD
"that Syn is that that" - Mothers Love
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I'm sorry, do you not have a secondary?
If you do, then how about using it in a way to enable you to do more than just sit at the back of the group, stroking your bots? Cuddles has already outlined one way for /Traps to tank, surely I don't need to echo it for you to take note of it?
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Yes, I have a secondary which requires me to be rooted, defenceless and in the middle of the mobs I'm trying to affect. I also don't have flight or stealth, which were both pretty central to the techniques mentioned by Cuddles. Because frankly, the 'drop the Mortar just in range of the mobs and then leg it' technique requires luck and an enemy type with average or lower perception.
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Play how you want by all means, but the MM AT is capable of numerous roles - first line of offence, first line of defence, debuffs, buffs... CoV ATs are nothing if not adaptable, easily moreso than CoH ATs - it doesn't take a huge build change to switch from one role to another, and MMs are more than equipped with the tools for this job.
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So by implication from that, because they are equipped to be able to do the job, they SHOULD do the job. That's what I thought this whole thread was about, people *expecting* you to play in a way you don't see as an appropriate use of your resources, just because you're a Mastermind.
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A pet may die, many more pets remain,
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Strange, because it's my experience, based on my playstyle, that when one pet drops, then I can usually expect another couple to follow in swift order.
Warning:
The above post may contain Cynicism, sarcasm and/or pessimism. If you object to the quantities contained, then tough.
This really seems to boil down to personal choices and playstyle.
MMs can and often do tank very effectively, so don't be surpised or complain when your team expects you to tank. You should explain from the start when you join a team that you are a non-tanking MM, explaining what tactics you prefer to use. You might want to put "My pets don't tank" in your search comment as well. (My Controller has "NOT a healer".)
I really should do something about this signature.
If a team ever starts whining about the fact i dont send em in as tanker, i just leave the team simple. I play this game to enjoy, definiatly not to be told 'how i should play'. Since its a personal choice how to play, there is not basic of the MM, neither there is a guideline.
Adn i realy think you should re-check the definition of tanking.. cause pets cannot tank.
50)Sinergy X/(50)Mika.
(50)MaceX/(50)Encore
Sign the petition, dont let CoH go down! SIGN!
Tanking: preventing the mobs from attacking the team by providing an alternative target.
Pets can tank, maybe yours can't. Maybe that says more about the person controlling them.
You are free to play the game as you wish, but if you are not prepered to co-operate with a team you should'n't be suprised if you find yourself solo.
I really should do something about this signature.
Pets can't really tank, all they can do is act as an ablative shield. (The following applies to robotics, since that's where all my experience is) As soon as any Player uses an attack power, the affected mobs will shift aggro to them, as they will almost invariably be doing more damage than the pets.
Now, in my book, acting as an ablative shield is not tanking. Others may disagree, fair enough. But tanking in CoH/V has a very distinct expectation of prolonged holding of the mobs attention. Not something that a MM's pets can do and survive.
Warning:
The above post may contain Cynicism, sarcasm and/or pessimism. If you object to the quantities contained, then tough.
So a blaster is a tank according to you? i use frostbreath they all start hitting my blaster instead of the team.. Cool, i can say i'm a tanker!! Oh wait.. Controller can do aoe immobilize and let all the mobs hit him instead of the team.. a tanker!!!
The 2nd line i just consider 'not read', a pitty you try it like that way..
Besides that, how do u actualy know how i play.. by merely the fact i dont let my pets be used as cannon fodder? Luckely most people are not that short-simple-minded as you are, so i have parties each time i play.
50)Sinergy X/(50)Mika.
(50)MaceX/(50)Encore
Sign the petition, dont let CoH go down! SIGN!
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So a blaster is a tank according to you?
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Not if he faceplants, since he is then no longer able to hold aggro.
A blaster or controller with maxed out res and def buffs can tank yes.
I don't know how you play. But I do know that pets where designed to be cannon fodder, and that no other CoV AT is able to hold and survive as much aggro. BRUTES ARE NOT TANKS.
I have played with a lot of MMs that take the same atatude as you do, which is why I tend to dislike teaming with MMs.
My pets can control aggro very effectively, and a few of the good MMs I have played with can to. Damage from henchmen actually counts for more aggro than damage from party members, in order to enable them to tank, but has the side effect of making ill controlled pets aggro verything in site.
I really should do something about this signature.
Playing my Necro/Dark MM I'd expect the meatbags to always go in first, being wiped if necessary to protect the team. I'd expect any MM I team with to send his tier 1s in first too, unless a teamie such as a Brute wanted to start proceedings.
If a MM had decided his henchies were delicate little flowers and shouldn't be opening combat I'd be reluctant to team with them again to be honest. Lots of MMs out there to choose from after all and I want one who puts team before some CPU minions that can be resummoned if they do collapse anyway.
Theres only one thing worse than a MM who leaves his minions skulking and sniping around in the background while other players take the risks and thats the MM who has the little blighters on Aggressive all the time and aggros half the map.
*Edit : What I'm describing here is alpha strike absorbion, not tanking. Henchies can't really tank well. They soak up damage pretty well though.
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You are totaly free to play your character however you wont (scranker, blapper, defaster anyone?)
[/ QUOTE ]Never heard of defaster, I know fair few offenders though 
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Tanking: preventing the mobs from attacking the team by providing an alternative target.
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Actually that's taunting.
Tanking : being able to soak damage and not die. - uhmm...i don't think henchies are really good at that.
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Sorry, but you are completly wrong there. The design of CoV intends for MM pets to be used as tanks. Brutes are intended as boss killers (the Scrapper role in CoH) NOT TANKS.
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So what are stalkers then, if brutes are the boss killers ?
Also why don't MM pets get a taunt if they are supposed to get the aggro from npcs?
MM's are like summoners in other mmorpgs - you'll never see the summoner's pet go and tank, that's why we have classes that can use heavy armor and shields ( in this case a defense oriented secondary and a taunt in primary ).
The pets do get a kind of taunt, in that their damage counts for extra aggro.
Strictly speaking, acording to the devs, the brutes should fight the bosses while the pets keep the minions occupied (which is why Brutes have a single target punchvoke). The role of stalkers was envisioned as being more akin to single target blasters.
Anyway, don't shoot the messenger, I'm only passing on what the devs said during CoV beta.
I really should do something about this signature.
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You are totaly free to play your character however you wont (scranker, blapper, defaster anyone?)
[/ QUOTE ]Never heard of defaster, I know fair few offenders though
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Opposit of a offender :P (offensive defender vs defensive blaster), i like the word defaster more since it sounds more like 'disaster'
50)Sinergy X/(50)Mika.
(50)MaceX/(50)Encore
Sign the petition, dont let CoH go down! SIGN!
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Tanking: preventing the mobs from attacking the team by providing an alternative target.
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Actually that's taunting.
Tanking : being able to soak damage and not die. - uhmm...i don't think henchies are really good at that.
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In CoX Tanking is more being able to hold a groups attention and not die as oppose to soaking damage and not die. Lets not start a pointless symantecs argument though
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Sorry, but you are completly wrong there. The design of CoV intends for MM pets to be used as tanks. Brutes are intended as boss killers (the Scrapper role in CoH) NOT TANKS.
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So what are stalkers then, if brutes are the boss killers ?
Also why don't MM pets get a taunt if they are supposed to get the aggro from npcs?
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I think they are in I7 (well so goes the rumour). Don't agree that CoV expects Brutes to be boss killers and MMs to be Tanks. In CoV the roles are deliberately blurred. I would say that Tier 1 minion assult is one of the handiest ways to open combat. Once opened and going Brutes will probably end up handling most of the aggro. By then it should be severely weakened aggro though (debuffs & casualties).
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MM's are like summoners in other mmorpgs - you'll never see the summoner's pet go and tank, that's why we have classes that can use heavy armor and shields ( in this case a defense oriented secondary and a taunt in primary ).
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As I said CoV has blurrier roles really.
Isn't the second warlock pet in WoW a tanking pet?
Certainly a solo WoW hunter neads to use his pet as a tank. They can even be trained with a taunt ability.
I really should do something about this signature.
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Anyway, don't shoot the messenger
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Sorry didn't mean to sound like that
As i said in a way earlier post, if the targets can be pulled but the corruptor is just lazy i feel no need to sacrifice my pets, if there's a chance my team can get killed by the npc spawn - i'll send henchies but i've often found in groups they prefer me to send pets instantly after the brute gets aggro so they can max out their damage.
One thing : i'm very fond of my henchies , so i tend to group mostly with friends that know better than to ask me to sacrifice my pets *evilgrin*
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Anyway, don't shoot the messenger
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Sorry didn't mean to sound like that
As i said in a way earlier post, if the targets can be pulled but the corruptor is just lazy i feel no need to sacrifice my pets, if there's a chance my team can get killed by the npc spawn - i'll send henchies but i've often found in groups they prefer me to send pets instantly after the brute gets aggro so they can max out their damage.
One thing : i'm very fond of my henchies , so i tend to group mostly with friends that know better than to ask me to sacrifice my pets *evilgrin*
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Good point actually. Pulling around a corner into a mob of pets (or henchies...) is a great tactic. Pulling successfully in a team (in other words getting them to actually stand around the corner out of LOS) can be ridiculously painful though. Brutes and Doms probably won't like the wait either.
Nice to see I've sparked a debate.
Just to clarify: I DON'T have a problem with one of my bots running in and taking an alpha strike if we're facing something that actually has one. When it's just that people are too lazy to pull then I'm less sympathetic.
The problem with tanking with pets is 3 fold:
1) Pets CAN tank, but they tank very differently to a Brute. Brute style tanking works by aggroing everything and having someone to heal you. Pets can't do this because there are too many of them to keep healed easily. Where the pets excell is running in once the fight has started and providing releaf for people who have picked up too much aggro. Let the stalker hit his assasin strike then open up on the mobs round him so that he can get clear, pull away a few of the mobs who got pulled because the corrupter is trying to take down a luitenant, etc. If you work that way pets can be a real help while tanking, but not if they've all faceplanted in 3 seconds.
2) A mastermind, more so than almost any other villain AT, MUST be in full control of the situation in every fight he's in. Pet classes cannot wing it without things going wrong. An effective MM is running around the battlefield taking in what's going on and directing his pets where they are needed. He can't do that if he's busy resummoning and buffing pets. It's very well saying that the Brute will die if the pets don't take all the aggro, but he'll die just as fast if the MM is too busy to notice that he needs support half way through the fight or that his MM buffs have run out.
3) Not all MM builds are the same. Fair enough, if you have hasten, stamina and a secondary with heals then it's probably quite easy to send in waves of rappidly resummoned pets. But there are also MM's (myself included) who have different pool powers like leadership or secondaries like FF. With these builds it takes time to resummon and buff your pets, but on the other side they become quite formidable. MM's like this a useless for tanking as the loss of one pet becomes quite a big deal, however the damage that they can put out if they stay back and fire more than makes up for it.
The MM is probably one of the most complex ATs in the game and it just bugs me when people in groups expect you to do things you're not built for or think they know better than you how to get the best out of your character. It's not hard to look at someone's bio and see what powers they have.
Having said all this, I should point out that I've never been kicked from a group or had someone be rude to me over this. The few times it's happened I've explained my case and we've been fine. We all missunderstand people's roles from time to time. For a long time I thought it was the Stalker's job to make the first strike. Learning about other people's strengths and weaknesses is part of the fun of teaming.
It's not usually to bad on my dom, domination decays more slowy than aggro.
I actually do quite a lot of the pulling, and always pull when I'm solo. Ice is good for that since even if you get more than one mob the slow effect splits them up a bit.
I really should do something about this signature.
Nice post kingmouse.
Don't agree 100% (of course, me being me ) but I'll agree to disagree.
The point about different builds and points of view is a good un!
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I very rarely, if ever used my bots as cannon fodder. That's what the brute was there for.
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On the rare occasions I find myself with MMs they overwhelming do the same thing - keep as far away from the fight as physically possible. As far as I'm concerned MMs regard the rest of the team as cannon fodder and that's one of the reasons I can't stand teaming with them, they are in their own 'little world'.
The few good MMs are simply exceptions to the rule - and there are a few excellent MM players. Heck, I've been on teams with MMs and Brutes and *I've* been the one expected to tank - as a Dominator!