Currently running a 31 fire tanker, have to agree acrobatics is close to be a base part of a fire build. Then again imho stoney's are nearly forced to get more attackpowers in their build once hasten runs out. The recharge is close to infinitive (erm.. spelling?), chance of loosing agro becomes quite bigger.
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I agree with most of what you've said, but if Fire needs Acrobatics, Stone needs TP just as much, for mobility not for travel.
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Blimey that takes me back to arguments of the past. 
Probably more the case now that Swift doesn't hack it anymore. Although I would guess Filth doesn't have TP? as he was always very anti it on concept.
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Heh, yes it has come around before... I seem to remember that Filth also spent far less time in GA for general tanking, but I'm sure he can speak for himself.
Still, it wasn't meant to be a statement of fact on how to build a Stone tank - more to point I that I don't believe any Tanker primary that I'm very familiar with can do without pool powers any better than the others. I believe they all can, to an extent, but all have weaknesses which can be patched by pool powers.
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Tundra, DVM, The Late, Neutrino Ghost, Sir Clanksalot, End Of Days, Prof. Migraine
Howler Monkey
I would agree with that Tundra, im playing a invun/ss tank at the moment and i will be taking tough and possible acrobatics as well.
Some may say you dont need them but whats wrong with giving yourself the little bit of extra power.
And just because fire tanks have to take acrobatics and tough dosnt make them any less of a tank, even though yes i agree it would be nice not to have to.
The point of the pool powers is to help patch weaknesses or add bonuses to your build, problem is that tanks are in many cases required to take power pools in order to do their job properly.
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I would agree with that Tundra, im playing a invun/ss tank at the moment and i will be taking tough and possible acrobatics as well.
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Why take acrobatics on an Inv? It gives you nothing... you already have knockback protection.
@Unthing ... Mostly on Union.
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The point of the pool powers is to help patch weaknesses or add bonuses to your build, problem is that tanks are in many cases required to take power pools in order to do their job properly.
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Yes, I believe that's what I said. My point was that it's practically all tanks, not a particular problem with Fire primary.
Although I'll happily bow to your greater experience on Ice, I don't recall seeing many builds which omit Tough/Weave and Combat Jumping.
By my 50s shall ye know me:
Tundra, DVM, The Late, Neutrino Ghost, Sir Clanksalot, End Of Days, Prof. Migraine
Howler Monkey
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The point of the pool powers is to help patch weaknesses or add bonuses to your build, problem is that tanks are in many cases required to take power pools in order to do their job properly.
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Yes, I believe that's what I said. My point was that it's practically all tanks, not a particular problem with Fire primary.
Although I'll happily bow to your greater experience on Ice, I don't recall seeing many builds which omit Tough/Weave and Combat Jumping.
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Don't have Weave, don't have Combat Jumping, didn't take Tough until I5 and even now it's only really useful against predominantly S/L foes.
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Stone may need swift for mobility and teleport as a travel power, but everyone gets the fitness pool anyway. Hasten is the only extra for a granite. Must have power count for a perma granite is 5 from the primary with one extra power.
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I agree with most of what you've said, but if Fire needs Acrobatics, Stone needs TP just as much, for mobility not for travel. Granite has no Knockback protection and Swift is nowhere near enough to allow mobility in GA + Rooted.
You say everyone takes Fitness anyway, and I realise that's true, but no other primary needs it to tank in the same way, it's just useful. In the same way, Provoke is helpful for getting around the -Recharge of GA, but not actually needed.
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I was assuming that every tank needs stamina to function* and either teleport self, super jump, super speed or fly to travel. So swift being picked is not an extra power pick, rather that stone is 'forced' to pick it rather than Hurdle. I agree stone ( granite or not ) needs tp just as much as fire needs acrobatics but I classed that as the chosen travel power. Stone is 'forced' into the teleport pool just as Fire ( and Dark Armour ) is 'forced' into the Leaping pool.
* All tanks are toggle heavy, whilst in theory you can get away without it, just using the required powers as stated above will result in almost no endurance regen for some of the tank primaries, especially those with a damage aura. Fire for instance cannot run the fighting pool, the jumping pool and it's primary and attack without heavy end slotting.
@Unthing ... Mostly on Union.
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The point of the pool powers is to help patch weaknesses or add bonuses to your build, problem is that tanks are in many cases required to take power pools in order to do their job properly.
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Yes, I believe that's what I said. My point was that it's practically all tanks, not a particular problem with Fire primary.
Although I'll happily bow to your greater experience on Ice, I don't recall seeing many builds which omit Tough/Weave and Combat Jumping.
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Don't have Weave, don't have Combat Jumping, didn't take Tough until I5 and even now it's only really useful against predominantly S/L foes.
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Fair enough. 3 out of 4 primaries is still most tanks, though. This does demonstrate rather well why there's been such a big upswing in starting Ice tanks, though.
By my 50s shall ye know me:
Tundra, DVM, The Late, Neutrino Ghost, Sir Clanksalot, End Of Days, Prof. Migraine
Howler Monkey
With any luck I'll be able to spec out the fighting pool completely come I7.
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This does feel like a blast from the past ;>
After playing some other Tanks and other ATs and especially PvP it's really painful going back to Granite without mobility. In Filth's last respec I ended up with 10 attacks, most of which are fully slotted and 3 ranged to try and makeup for being so slow; I also compromised and got TP Foe, which is useful but no substitute for proper movement. I would say now that not having TP with Granite can be as limiting as not having Acrobatics for a Fire tank. PvP with Granite is mostly miserable, TP or not. If I do spend some time in PvP with Filth I'll be taking lots of BFs with me and playing fast and loose.
My problem with Teleport and Granite is it always seemed such an arbitrary limitation - "no superjump or superspeed - oh, but it's ok to use teleport" -eh?, why doesn't TP break Granite? or why can't we use SJ at say half effectiveness? or superspeed? It just made me want to thump the designers. I actually like the idea of having disadvantages to powers, but there are so few and the Granite ones seem like a bit of a kludge. Yes, and now Swift is gimped as well....grrreat /em grumble.
It's certainly true that without Hasten, Swift and TP you're in for a tough time with Stone. Having griped about this I have to say the only reason I chose Stone was because I liked the look of the armour and it fitted my character, I hadn't a clue about anything of the mechanics, I was even one of those Stone tanks who took Combat Jumping; how I laughed when I discovered how well that meshed with Stone - "what? oh s***!"
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I was assuming that every tank needs stamina to function* and either teleport self, super jump, super speed or fly to travel. So swift being picked is not an extra power pick, rather that stone is 'forced' to pick it rather than Hurdle. I agree stone ( granite or not ) needs tp just as much as fire needs acrobatics but I classed that as the chosen travel power. Stone is 'forced' into the teleport pool just as Fire ( and Dark Armour ) is 'forced' into the Leaping pool.
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Which was the point - Fire is no worse off. I'm not suggesting that the situation is ideal, just that Fire isn't stuck nearly as far at the bottom of the heap as has been suggested.
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* All tanks are toggle heavy, whilst in theory you can get away without it, just using the required powers as stated above will result in almost no endurance regen for some of the tank primaries, especially those with a damage aura. Fire for instance cannot run the fighting pool, the jumping pool and it's primary and attack without heavy end slotting.
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However, once they've got a Taunt aura they don't need to attack to perform their primary function. I'm not suggesting that a build almost unable to attack would be either a good idea or fun - but it would still be able to tank. As far as being toggle heavy goes, that's certainly true - but the capacity to slot for End is an option, if not a very efficient one.
Stone, post-GA, really doesn't need Stamina, btw. It's forced into the pool by Swift - Health and Stamina are just very nice.
By my 50s shall ye know me:
Tundra, DVM, The Late, Neutrino Ghost, Sir Clanksalot, End Of Days, Prof. Migraine
Howler Monkey
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Fire really needs acrobatics and tough.
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There is absolutely no need for a fire tank to get Tough, though acrobatics is required.
Teh bonus from Tough is so minute now for the end it consumes that I know many who ropeed it completely after it was altered as there was no point taking an entire pools for such a dubiously beneficial power.
In real terms, the only time I'm ever a less than capable tank with D-Zol is when up against psi damage. Other than that, I can comfortably tank for 8 man teams against +3's and my aggro holding is very good.
Healing Flames covers any HP loss I may suffer from an alpha strike and BA along with taunt keeps the mobs on me. On the rare occasion mobs scatter, a nice burst of consume will top my end back up and pull them all back to me.
I'm having real trouble in this thread seeing why fire tanks seem to be seen as one of the weker breeds. From personal experience, 5 of the 7 best tanks I know are all fire tanks!
(Dinomight, Scar Tissue, Mabutu, Firewall and Whatever. The other two are Rock Eagle and J Brute)
I amdit we are slow starters compared to the others and it's very difficult to have a succesful fire tank until into the 20's but once we're there, we start steadily outperforming other's.
Also worth noting that I also class a good tank as one who can hold aggro, not one who can take the most damage.
Holding 100% of the aggro is no good if you're dead
And Tough is still ~24% RES vs S/L 3-slotted, which I really wouldn't call minute.
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Holding 100% of the aggro is no good if you're dead
And Tough is still ~24% RES vs S/L 3-slotted, which I really wouldn't call minute.
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I quite agree with Mr. Spad, sorry KinslayerX27. Its a big enough percentage to make Invuln Tanks, the supposed S/L kings, look twice at it.
I haven't found any need to slot shields for end reduction with my fire/ice tank - running tough, weave, combat jump, acrobatics in addition to the shields.
I have consume.
I have stamina.
Its enough for my needs. 
Swinging away to secondaries for a moment, I have a bone of contention work thinking of. Damage types. With S/L being pretty much the heaviest resisted damage type throughout the game (and especially in the late game) do we reckon that things like EnMelee and Fire (and Ice does cold, I seem to recall?) have an edge?
Do not go gentle into that good night.
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Swinging away to secondaries for a moment, I have a bone of contention work thinking of. Damage types. With S/L being pretty much the heaviest resisted damage type throughout the game (and especially in the late game) do we reckon that things like EnMelee and Fire (and Ice does cold, I seem to recall?) have an edge?
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Groan...that old chestnut...you're right up to a point. Fire and Energy are high damage anyway (regardless of resistance) - fire for AoE and Energy for single target. The downside to Energy is that it's so so dull and weedy until the last two powers, and Fire has no secondary effect.
Although people tend to think of smashing and lethal damage together, smashing is actually less resisted than lethal, so going for SS or Stone isn't such an issue. Ice melee is not a big damager regardless of resistance - it's specialty is control.
My two pence worth is that INV is the easiest to play with - RPD, temp inv, unyeilding and you are ready to go. Not as hardcore as a stone tanker but get yourself some combat jumping and hurdle and you've got a decent fun build
Go for war mace for extra kudos
For my tuppence worth the need for tough or weave on any tanker can be lessened through powerchoices, playstyle or teaming. I cant see a "must" for them anywhere in the game. Of course they do add the extra safety net. As far as stonetanks and firetanks go tp self on stonetanks helps bigtime without a kin to gain/regain or position to consolidate aggro through mobility and acrobatics on a firetank is a must to keep within the herd thats herded for consolidation and to use powers when needed without knockback interruption. Invulns and Ice are kind of free when it comes to powerpool choices but on both i LOVE my hasten very much but thats a personal safety net of mine.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Wheeeee! Tanker fights! My turn!
Well, as I only have one (real) char, my beloved Fire/Ice tank, and can still remember the selection process, my mind went summat like this:
Inv: Looks kinda complicated.
Stone: Looks too easy.
Ice: Looks like my costume would go away.
Fire: Looks different.
So I chose fire, and chose Ice to make Burn work.
Now Fire *is* weaker than the others in many cases, so I picked up Tough which I do use if I get in over my head, which is often in trials and TF's. I would be hard pressed to drop it. I think it about halves your commonly received damage.
Ice patch UTTERLY DECIMATES the amount of damage you take. As well as providing an instant barbeque patio. So this matches fire very, very well.
Knockback is a SERIOUS pain in the [censored]. My burn and ice patches can often be spotted in mid air. Only Acrobatics and Hover will help you with it. I chose hover and used SS for speed and stealth. I like it, a lot! (I'd like it better if Burn/icepatch power descriptions didn't lie about ground proximity)
If you get Aid Self, and slot it fully, you are much, much, much, MUCH harder to take down. Combined with Healing Flames your health goes down, but goes up even more.
I can now herd purples, and massacre them in confined spaces while my health yoyo's up and down. THAT is a buzz!
Endurance is a problem without Stamina, but if you herd larger numbers, your AoE's will kill more for the same endurance.
But what I like most about my tank, is that when I fall, kicking and screaming, in the middle of a pitched knife-edge battle (which for any other tank would mean a teamwipe) for the firetank with phoenix, it means you're going to win and you watch as even your toughest opponents are killed or mezzed out of the battle long enough for your team to do what must be done.
With consume, self heals, and self res, you never, ever, need to stop. Entering a battle on little end and low health is fixed with two clicks. You just keep on keeping on. With hasten you're *even harder* to stop.
So yes, I recommend a Fire/Ice tank It's a blast.
Otherwise, Ice.
[i]If they get there first they'll make our dreams come true.
If we get there first we can stop them.[/i]
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With consume, self heals, and self res, you never, ever, need to stop. Entering a battle on little end and low health is fixed with two clicks. You just keep on keeping on. With hasten you're *even harder* to stop.
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absolutely true a fire tanker with a good team, never never stop to run...
aoe aoe aoe consume/health aoe aoe ^^
it's the berserk mod of a tank.
the funny things is that mob can be 5 ou 20 that's the same ^^
Then i realy got the feeling i'm doing something wrong with my fire tanker 
I will stick to my stoney tanker then 
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(50)MaceX/(50)Encore
Sign the petition, dont let CoH go down! SIGN!
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succesfull thus boring.
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Ooooh uh! Boring is NEVER good!
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I'm not quite sure why he says boring. It sounds like a pretty standard tanker set to me.
One thing tankers don't get is the same edge of the seat feeling that blasting gives you. On the flip side playing a tanker well is deeply satisfying as you feel that you are letting the rest of the team perform better by
- Keeping enemies packed, allowing them to debuff / AoE more effectively.
- Removing risk, allowing them to concentrate on their job rather than trying to defend themselves.
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No the boring part is simple once a AT doesn´t matter what AT i create succeed above a certain expectation things gets simply down to grinding for xp and hardly any risk .
Now most people love that and i agree nothing wrong with that cause its beside the build the tactics employed.
Same happened to my Dark/Elec defender once she gotten two hold to bypass the new Hold/Mezz Boss system to again perma lock things , it makes things a bit too simple (and DEV dont start messing around again 
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Its simply the way i am , get bored easily when things are too easy , STONE melee secondary really have the highest damage output , heavy mallet is low end of superior but its atleast superior , stone fist is definetly high end of moderate , air superiority beside really good damage and 100% knockdown make you able to control fights .
Spad way of Tanking is really fun did it from the moment i gotten taunt at 10 , so yes CoT ,Heavy energy /Fire/cold oppenents are a pain for Invunerable tankers , but that can be circumvented trough clever use of Dullpain and health regeneration , then letting Invincibility kick in .
Once oppenents are in melee range most of there damage is still S/L beside the other things .
Now a side question how much health regen does Rooted have it feels like 20% or am i wrong ?, cause wanted to try to get a regen tank or close as possible .
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I agree with most of what you've said, but if Fire needs Acrobatics, Stone needs TP just as much, for mobility not for travel.
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Blimey that takes me back to arguments of the past.
Probably more the case now that Swift doesn't hack it anymore. Although I would guess Filth doesn't have TP? as he was always very anti it on concept.