Why is Rage made so much better than Build Up Etc
By
Ahmon,
Posted on: 2009-07-20 20:23 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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Since it was asked and sortof answered but not explicitly stated outright: you can still bypass the Rage crash because the -defense is set to not stack from the same caster. This is why it will work when you zone, because the new Rage won't overwrite the old -defense penalty with the new one (which is suppressed for 120 seconds before going off).
Removing the "doesn't stack" from the debuff would make it always apply, and then if you wanted to prevent the buff from stacking simply add it to the +20%/+80% tohit/damage; changing the -defense to a resistable -resistance would balance the penalty for all sets by increasing the percentage of damage taken identically for them all.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
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Originally Posted by Brillig
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I'd just get rid of the crash altogether and have Rage lower MaxEndurance when running. Say by ten or so (would need testing), so you're welcome to double-stack it, but then your MaxEnd is dropped by twenty.
I'd apply the same idea to Hasten.
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I'd apply the same idea to Hasten.
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What did hasten ever do to you?
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Hey - question.
Why is the Defense Crash the same for Brutes and Tankers? Brutes have .75 Defense modifiers compared to the Tankers 1.0.
When Unyielding from Invulnerability debuffed defense, it had -5% Defense to Tankers, and -3.75% for Brutes and Scrappers. There's precedent. Is there an actual reason or is it just an oversight?
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That is a good question........Castle?
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Because its an offensive set not a defensive one. Invul was a defense set and therefore defense mods apply, Super Strength is an offensive one.
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Darkest Night on a brute: 10.5% tohit debuff
DN on a Defender: 18.75% tohit debuff
If offensive debuffs are affected by AT modifiers, why a personal debuff be affected?
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Once again you are comparing two different things. Debuff AT modifier is different.
A penalty crash has never been different across any AT. NOTE: PENALTY CRASH not a toggle debuff. All T9's with a crash are the same across AT's just like rage is. Should a Scrapper be left with more HP from Unstoppable when it crashes because they have less HP then a Tanker? No.
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Rage has needed a nerfbat for ages, but it's just too popular.
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Or perhaps it's the OTHER sets that are underperforming. In recent Issues we've seen Mace buffed, Dark Melee buffed; IF the other sets are inferior why not make them better ?
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Dark Melee is fairly overpowered now and I am preparing a grand thread showcasing it off 
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Rage has needed a nerfbat for ages, but it's just too popular.
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Or perhaps it's the OTHER sets that are underperforming. In recent Issues we've seen Mace buffed, Dark Melee buffed; IF the other sets are inferior why not make them better ?
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Dark Melee is fairly overpowered now and I am preparing a grand thread showcasing it off
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It's not overpowered! Quiet!
(Personally, I'd say it isn't. It's got great ST damage and excellent utility but it pays for it by having very anemic AoE damage that only becomes even remotely decent when played intelligently and no one else is interfering with enemy placement)
That's not a scoop, Rage is a bit overpowered. Not only for its perma build up like damage buff, but also for its massive tohit buff (20% with only 3 rech SOs, lol ?).
I wouldnt like to see a "fix" to the crash, in my opinion it puts to disadvantage certain combos much more than others (SS/SR, /SD, /EA). (Even if I understand ppl saying that the crash should do what it's supposed to do, that's logical).
As an alternative I'd rather not mind that much to see its recharge being increased, so you can't stack it that easily. But would still work with some IOs or Hasten... (Of course in this case ppl would say that the set is balanced around IO and shouldnt...).
Or maybe its numbers to be lowered a bit : 10% ToHit, 50% dmg. But that would make ppl cry for sure...
No easy solution 
My problem is that Rage is really only in one set. I've never really like the Super Strength animations and been able to get a toon idea that I liked for SS. But all the Build Ups just sorta stink in comparison and I guess I was looking for a Build Up improvement or more interations of Rage spread out so that most builds are stuck with a boring stinky Build Up power.
My biggest problem with Rage is that it feels necessary, and I don't like when a set feels like it's built around 1 power. It limits your choices, both in power selections and concept. Ex: I'm working a WP/SS Tanker right now, and Rage just doesn't fit her concept very well, especially "perma" rage. Her damage output without it feels pretty low, though. I'll probably take it but not perma it... only using it when the crap really hits the fan. I'd much rather have the attacks perform better without Rage. Maybe I'll just concentrate on an IO build that increases damage and skip it all together...
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I'd just get rid of the crash altogether and have Rage lower MaxEndurance when running. Say by ten or so (would need testing), so you're welcome to double-stack it, but then your MaxEnd is dropped by twenty.
I'd apply the same idea to Hasten.
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What I would do to overhaul it:
First, Allow double stacking as long as the crash applies through it.
Second, Change the power to add:
-30% Enhancement(End Reduction)
For both the up AND downtime of the power.
Change the crash to the following (Brute Version)
-3.75% Defense (Unresistable) for 10 seconds
-3.75% Defense (Resistable) for 10 seconds
-7.5% Resistance (Unresistable) for 10 seconds
-7.5% Resistance (Resistable) for 10 seconds
-80% Damage for 10 seconds
If you double stack rage during the 10s crash, you break even on damage... at the cost of TWO (-30% Enhancement(Endurance Reduction) effects.
Deamus the Fallen - 50 DM/EA Brute - Lib
Dragos Bahtiam - 50 Fire/Ice Blaster - Lib
/facepalm - Apply Directly to the Forehead!
Formally Dragos_Bahtiam - Abbreviate to DSL - Warning, may contain sarcasm
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Originally Posted by Shubbie
Im very good at taking a problem and making it worse.
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I'm curious what balances out Super Strength with other Primaries and Secondaries that it gets a better than build up that can be double and triple stacked and fairly easily made perma. For most builds the crash is livable. I'm not trying to nerf rage, just ask why everything else pales in comparison. I also wonder why Build Up was repeated so often instead of spreading out Rage, Sould Drain, etc to other powers
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It's because Jab, Punch, and Haymaker are weak compared to say Stone Fists, Stone Mallet, and Heavy Mallet and long ago, KO Blow did no damage. Since then most Tanker sets got an equivalent version of new KO Blow and Rage has been nerfed down.
Yes, Tanks used to do a fraction of the damage they do today, but resisted damage better also. I used to go make coffee while my Inv/SS whittled down an Lt.
Quixotik
"I did not say this. I am not here." -Guild Navigator
Now compare rage to blinding feint and follow up. Which is overpowered?
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Rage has needed a nerfbat for ages, but it's just too popular.
I'd rather see they just turn it into a +10 tohit / +40 dambuff / 0.16 eps toggle. (/ducks the whines)
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Sorry but Rage is working just fine. You do not analyze one single power into a vaccuum. You got to take a look at the whole SuperStrength powerset.
Anyone has proof that SS is overperforming and overshadowing most other tanker secondaries or brute primaries? And i mean numerical proof. Not feelings.
I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.
Voltaire
Yes.
Here is your numeric proof. Superstrength = 10 and Stone Melee = 9.
10 > 9
The End.
pssst, I made up those numbers.
For ST damage it appears to get beaten by 3 existing powersets. And a 4th soon to exist powerset. But that's with basic IOs.
Be well, people of CoH.
Ya, I like SS more for the fact it's a rounded out set. ST damage, AoE damage, Ranged Damage, Mitigation and it 'feels' strong to me.
Footstomp is the only possible overpowered culprit in the set, but I'm not sure that FS having a larger radius, etc then it should is enough to claim SS overpowered.
Yes, i like SS because it is a multipurpose set. Basically we can say it carries +To Hit, +Dmg, range, melee, aoe, knockup, knockdown, disorient, -fly. It has a little bit of everything and like Clouded said, its well rounded out.
Not the most DPS set but certainly not a bad powerset and maybe one of the most accurate powerset there is in the game.
I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.
Voltaire
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First, Allow double stacking as long as the crash applies through it.
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It's already like this.
The plastic tips at the end of shoelaces are called aglets. Their true purpose is sinister.
--The Question, JLU
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First, Allow double stacking as long as the crash applies through it.
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It's already like this.
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Not entirely. The defense debuff gets cancelled with double stacking.
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Hey - question.
Why is the Defense Crash the same for Brutes and Tankers? Brutes have .75 Defense modifiers compared to the Tankers 1.0.
When Unyielding from Invulnerability debuffed defense, it had -5% Defense to Tankers, and -3.75% for Brutes and Scrappers. There's precedent. Is there an actual reason or is it just an oversight?
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That is a good question........Castle?
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Because its an offensive set not a defensive one. Invul was a defense set and therefore defense mods apply, Super Strength is an offensive one.
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Actually, the defense debuff in Unyielding was originally** -5% for both scrappers and tankers, because it wasn't set to honor archetype modifiers. Eventually, it was made -5% for tankers and -3.75% for scrappers, but even then I believe it *still* didn't honor archetype modifiers: instead the scrapper version was simply changed to be -3.75% in a hard-coded manner.
** Well, technically speaking it was "originally" higher, but the value almost everyone knows is the -5% value.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
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Why would it be disastrous for the power to work as designed?
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Make the -20% defense debuff resistable by the toon's defense debuff resistance
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Back when it was being monkeyed with, I suggested to Castle that the debuff be changed to be either:
1. -30% resistance debuff, resistable or
2. -20% defense debuff, resistable
and I preferred #1 over #2 due to the issue of mechanics. I also told him how to fix the "stacking preempts the crash" bug at the same time, but I interpret the fact that he didn't proceed further to mean he no longer considered it a priority (this was back when resources were limited and once his time was up, Castle's time was up and it was time to move on to the next issue).
It really is a trivial bug to fix**, so whenever Castle wants to fix it, it'll get fixed.
** as far as I'm aware, somehow, the -DMG and -END were set to Stack, but the -DEF was set to Replace. That means if you can cast Rage before the -DEF is triggered, the next -DEF will replace the previous one and the previous one will never fire. Its not an "Oil Slick Arrow"-like situation, just a typo.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
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Footstomp is the only possible overpowered culprit in the set, but I'm not sure that FS having a larger radius, etc then it should is enough to claim SS overpowered.
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The radius is the exact same as its sister Tremor. The values it has are the values it should.
Ok.. The real reason I started this thread is because I hate hitting Build Up and Aim. I just hate it. If it lasted longer and I didn't have to hit it as often I'd hate it less.
At least Feint and some of the others are actual attacks. So I don't feel like they do nothing. Heck for brutes they help to keep the Fury Bar going.
Rage clicks on for a good while. That's really why I think Rage is unfair. That and its in a powerset that I'm not really that interested in.
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Two minutes of build-up for ten seconds of debuff? Yes please.
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After all that enchanced damage being dished out for a long two minutes, ten seconds seems like a very minor if not negligable drawback to me.
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Rage has needed a nerfbat for ages, but it's just too popular.
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Or perhaps it's the OTHER sets that are underperforming. In recent Issues we've seen Mace buffed, Dark Melee buffed; IF the other sets are inferior why not make them better ?
Arc #40529 : The Furies of the Earth