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Personally, I'd really take either. If I had to choose, I'd take one brute (maybe two), then Scrappers after that (and screw the tanks! 
).
The reasoning for that is that Brute's depend on Fury for good damage output (REALLY good damage output...), and holding aggro is the best way to build Fury... having too many Brutes mean they'll just be cutting into each other's Fury. So if you go with one (maybe two) Brutes, and then some Scrappers, you should have the best of both worlds, since you can get one/two Brutes at nearly max Fury, and then the Scrappers can enjoy their Scrapperlock without having to worry about the rest of the team... 'cause that's the Brute's job!
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Enemy fire contributes less to generation and maintenance of Fury than the Brute's own attacks. An initial volley will help boost it quickly if it's empty, but then the Brute's own actions take over. With a decent build, Fury is just there for you; it's not dependent on "holding aggro" for a team.
[/ QUOTE ]Little known fact: Attacks don't generator Fury over 70%. That's something people don't know and don't realize. Attacks check to see your Fury level, and when it's over 70%, they won't contribute to it.
Before 70%, both are useful and helpful... but to get over 70%, you have to have aggro (read: people trying to attack you). But regardless, my point still stands, Brutes and Scrappers are largely interchangable- neither are really better than the other when taken as a whole.
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Originally Posted by ShadowNate
;_; ?!?! What the heck is wrong with you, my god, I have never been so confused in my life!
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I already have my Controller's and a few Brutes; I'm gearing up for Rogue and have a couple of melee powerset combos I'm looking to use but before I start leveling either choice (Brute/Scrapper), I was looking to get a little more insight into the two.
[/ QUOTE ]If you don't have any Scrappers yet, I'd say go with one. They play a good bit differently than Brutes, although not extremely.
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The things actually being pointed out are the Brute's higher base HP, higher resis cap and a more consistent high damage output.
[/ QUOTE ]No, Scrappers are the ones with a more consistent damage output. Brutes have an EXTREMELY low base damage, and without building up Fury, do worse damage than a Tanker! Scrappers are the consistent AT, while Brutes have to build up, and can potentially beat Scrapper's damage in ideal situations (but in ideal situations, it often won't matter which you have ).
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Originally Posted by ShadowNate
;_; ?!?! What the heck is wrong with you, my god, I have never been so confused in my life!
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Brutes > Scrappers*
*Unless the scrapper is played by FD or Sir L from our SG then Brute = Scrapper. 
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Personally, I'd really take either. If I had to choose, I'd take one brute (maybe two), then Scrappers after that (and screw the tanks! ).
The reasoning for that is that Brute's depend on Fury for good damage output (REALLY good damage output...), and holding aggro is the best way to build Fury... having too many Brutes mean they'll just be cutting into each other's Fury. So if you go with one (maybe two) Brutes, and then some Scrappers, you should have the best of both worlds, since you can get one/two Brutes at nearly max Fury, and then the Scrappers can enjoy their Scrapperlock without having to worry about the rest of the team... 'cause that's the Brute's job!
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Enemy fire contributes less to generation and maintenance of Fury than the Brute's own attacks. An initial volley will help boost it quickly if it's empty, but then the Brute's own actions take over. With a decent build, Fury is just there for you; it's not dependent on "holding aggro" for a team.
[/ QUOTE ]Little known fact: Attacks don't generator Fury over 70%. That's something people don't know and don't realize. Attacks check to see your Fury level, and when it's over 70%, they won't contribute to it.
Before 70%, both are useful and helpful... but to get over 70%, you have to have aggro (read: people trying to attack you).
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Really <.<?
What you said didn't make any sense with several years of play, so I popped into RWZ to do a quick test. What you said above for Fury generation isn't correct in actual practice. Nor does it line up with City of Data's entry on Fury. There is no cut-off where player-attacks no longer count for Fury.
Also note that /Inv isn't considered a secondary that "limits your damage" in the early game compared to /Fire, /Dark, or /Will despite the fact that it has no Taunt Aura until lv28. Nor will pairing an /Inv with one of the above Secondaries on a team mean that the /Inv is doomed to underperform the other Brute because it can "hold aggro" and the /Inv can't.
Brutes do not have to "hold aggro for a team" in order to have 70%+ Fury.
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Nor does it line up with City of Data's entry on Fury.
[/ QUOTE ]The power Fury does nothing. Check the actual attacks.
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Brutes do not have to "hold aggro for a team" in order to have 70%+ Fury.
[/ QUOTE ]You don't need a taunt aura to hold aggro... or even taunt.
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Originally Posted by ShadowNate
;_; ?!?! What the heck is wrong with you, my god, I have never been so confused in my life!
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Nor does it line up with City of Data's entry on Fury.
[/ QUOTE ]The power Fury does nothing. Check the actual attacks.
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Brutes do not have to "hold aggro for a team" in order to have 70%+ Fury.
[/ QUOTE ]You don't need a taunt aura to hold aggro... or even taunt.
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That's bonus Fury, I think.
If you notice, that line :
* Fury +0.05 If target is a Player, Boss, or better, and Rage < 70% [Ignores Enhancements & Buffs]
would exclude attacks building fury off of minions, lets, etc. But I know I can build fury off of those - I've seen it.
Orc&Pie No.53230 There is an orc, and somehow, he got a pie. And you are hungry.
www.repeat-offenders.net
Negaduck: I see you found the crumb. I knew you'd never notice the huge flag.
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Nor does it line up with City of Data's entry on Fury.
[/ QUOTE ]The power Fury does nothing. Check the actual attacks.
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*Throws hands in the air* I guess I just photoshopped a screenshot showing 85%+ Fury with zero possibility of enemy attacks contributing. That character has no +Dam Set Bonuses, yet Fury's bonus does not top-out at 140%, nor anywhere near there.
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Brutes do not have to "hold aggro for a team" in order to have 70%+ Fury.
[/ QUOTE ]You don't need a taunt aura to hold aggro... or even taunt.
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If your assertion was correct then a pair of Brutes where one had an aura and the other didn't would see the aura-less one unable to keep its damage up. Again, this doesn't show up in practice.
Perhaps there's a reason your 'fact' is 'little known'.
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Which would you rather use? Have on a team (Co-Op or otherwise)? Reasons?
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There are too many variables to answer this question:
1)Softcapped DM/SD Brute vs DM/SD Scrapper?
--The scrapper has better damage potential and similar survivability. Either one can solo an AV.
2) High Recharge Superstrength/Fire Brute vs Spines/Fire Brute?
--The SS/Fire brute will wind up with better AoE damage potential AND better fire resistance.
3) Dark/Stone Brute vs BS/Regen?
--How in the world is this even a comparison? Do I want a whirlwind of damage or an unstoppable paperweight?
For survivability, there are certain sets that allow brutes to shine and even match the survivability of tanks (Stone) and there are certain AoE powersets (elec/shield, SS/shield) that scrappers do not have access to that make them sickening.
As to which I would play, it again depends on the team dynamic. If I can maintain fury (on some teams this is impossible), then a brute can be a joy to play. But, if I am on a team that stops often to rest or has an overwhelming amount of mez so I don't get hit enough to maintain my fury, I'm not going to want to play my brute who is now doing sub-tanker damage. Wait, my SG is calling me. Gotta go.
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Really <.<?
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I did not realize you are Man-Eater(sp?) I'll have to say hi next time I see ya at the BM!
To the topic, they are alike in damage,unless it is a IDEAL team(with like 2 Kins) or a totally IO'ed out DM/Shield Brute. Brutes are more survivable, but in a team I can see this not mattering at all, mobs debuffed, controlled etc etc.
Both.
<QR>
Re: Fury for attacks
The bonus Fury, which was added as a fix for PvP, shows up in the attack listings. It is not the only way to generate Fury, which has 4 entries in City of Data.
The first is the increase for attacking or being attacked, and CoD isn't showing it because it doesn't fall into the AT modifier variable listings. But if it "does nothing", then you'd never gain Fury for being attacked either. It's also not shown because it just has "Expression" listed, but the rate of gain for each incoming attack is half the value you gain for attacking.
The second is the effect that the Fury level has on your damage, as well as determining the base amount gained per attack/incoming attack (which decreases at high levels of Fury while the decay remains constant - that's the "Expression" and why you never get to 100).
Note that both of these used to have more visibility on CoD but the simplified, "easier to read" format obfuscates the equations that used to be displayed between i7 and i11.
The third is the standard decay, set at -2 Fury per second.
The last one is the reason why Fury was only working part time in PvP and is also the reason why Brutes that aren't in an "Only Affect Self" or "Phased" state can't maintain stealth. It combines with the second to determine the amount of Fury that you gain when that first power triggers to provide you some for attacking or being attacked - remember that you get more for having a lieutenant, boss, elite boss, av, or monster as opposed to all minions, this is what does that. It does this by checking what's standing within 10' of you once every 10 seconds (can you see where this may be an issue in PvP?) and boosting the base rate of gain if it's not a minion, then boosting it again if it's a boss or higher (so double for lts, triple for bosses+). It also disrupts stealth not because it lowers the stealth radius, but because it is set to always notify mobs - and you can ask any Stalker, once a mob knows you're there no amount of stealth is going to prevent it from attacking you. (PS: Devs, can we get this set to "Never" already, or are Brutes supposed to be the only AT in the game that can't reliably stand in the middle of a spawn while stealthed?)
Yes, you gain Fury by attacking with a value above 70%. Yes, you gain Fury by being attacked. Yes, you gain bonus Fury from a line within the power descriptions - this was added after the Defiance change when many players noted that "Fury was given to Blasters and in a way that works in PvP". No, that doesn't mean the other entries in City of Data for Fury don't do anything.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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On Teams:
Depends on the powersets of the ATs and what the team would befit from having. Basically the same answer to the question what would you have on team [insert AT name] or [insert AT name].
What I mean is, depending on what you have on the team AT AND POWERSET wise, you have different priorities.
In general:
If you are trying to pick a new AT to roll, consider the brutes and scrappers available power choices. Scrappers benefit 50% more from damage buffs, so if you are going for a damage heavy build, the scrapper built right will always outdamage brutes unless you are all at the dagame cap thanks to FS. At the damage cap, both ATs do the same damage.
If you are going solo and are looking at softcapping a defense based secondary, you should keep in mind that scrappers, will have roughly the same survivability as a brute (at the softcap) but will have the higher out of the box damage and benefit 50% more from damage buffs.
Both ATs play relatively the same, but brutes need to keep running to the next spawn. End is therefore your biggest barrier to overcome as a brute.
I personally enjoy brutes more in general, but have been having a lot of fun with my DM/SD scrapper that is a damage powerhouse while being softcapped.
The biggest difference between the two ATs, and the only difference worth even taking into account (besides fury based playstyle differences) is the fact that a team with res buffs can buff a Brute to tanker caps. Any team that can buff damage/def to the caps/softcaps will have the same effect on the brute and scrapper but any team that can buff res to the tanker caps will have tanker level capped brute which can be very very scary.
Of course this means having a lot of sonics, thermals, cold doms on the team which can be very rare.
Clouded:
Shhhh, your're ruining the going rogue party before it begins! =)
I think I see another difference, please verify: Brutes have Taunt built into all of their attacks and offensive auras.
Excluding the actual power Taunt/Confront, are Scrappers having to chase down mobs more than Brutes mid-combat?
Apparently, I play "City of Shakespeare"
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Having played both alot, I don't remember chasing down enemies more on my scrappers than on my brutes.
Taunt ( Except for the actual taunt powers ) doesn't override fleeing in my experience. The taunt powers only override it in cases where any attack landing would cause the runner to stop.
Virtue Server
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Taunt ( Except for the actual taunt powers ) doesn't override fleeing in my experience. The taunt powers only override it in cases where any attack landing would cause the runner to stop.
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Eh...
I don't know, I've had things stop running when my Brute hits them that didn't stop running away when my Corruptor, Dominator, or Stalker did.
I'd imagine it would work the same way with Scrappers, and I know for a fact that the AE mobs I was fighting last night on my Fire/Fire Scrapper had an annoying tendency to run even with Blazing Aura on (I spent a fair amount of time chasing runners), although I haven't run a Brute through that particular arc to see if they'd behave identically.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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Taunt ( Except for the actual taunt powers ) doesn't override fleeing in my experience. The taunt powers only override it in cases where any attack landing would cause the runner to stop.
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Eh...
I don't know, I've had things stop running when my Brute hits them that didn't stop running away when my Corruptor, Dominator, or Stalker did.
I'd imagine it would work the same way with Scrappers, and I know for a fact that the AE mobs I was fighting last night on my Fire/Fire Scrapper had an annoying tendency to run even with Blazing Aura on (I spent a fair amount of time chasing runners), although I haven't run a Brute through that particular arc to see if they'd behave identically.
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Playing a Brute and then playing a Scrapper I'd have to say the Scrapper has to deal with runners more. The enemy AI deciding to run happens at the same rate, but if the Brute lands a hit on them they tend to stop; whereas the Scrapper may land another blow but they just keep going until defeated.
I've also had experience killing large groups of Carnies in Fortune's Wheel that bears this out. Pre-IOs, the end-drain was fairly painful from all the death-AoEs. To limit Endurance burn I kept Invincibility turned off. Since I was fighting large groups of even-con minions, they tended to be defeated very rapidly. This would often result in one or two of them "running" when several of their peers had been downed in a few seconds. Chasing them all got tedious. I began running Invincibility again and the running problem vanished completely (but I kept running out of End again 
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To the topic, they are alike in damage,unless it is a IDEAL team(with like 2 Kins) or a totally IO'ed out DM/Shield Brute. Brutes are more survivable, but in a team I can see this not mattering at all, mobs debuffed, controlled etc etc.
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Sorry but they're not alike in damage. From a "cold start" with no outside buffs a scrapper does considerably more damage than a brute. A brute requires fury to increase damage. With outside buffs a brute's damage can go higher than a scrapper's because the brute damage cap is higher.
As far as my own preference I'd say it's a wash. Differences in player ability and build are more significant than inherent differences between the two ATs.
Freedom: Blazing Larb, Fiery Fulcrum, Sardan Reborn, Arctic-Frenzy, Wasabi Sam, Mr Smashtastic.
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I think I see another difference, please verify: Brutes have Taunt built into all of their attacks and offensive auras.
Excluding the actual power Taunt/Confront, are Scrappers having to chase down mobs more than Brutes mid-combat?
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Note, though, Brutes have what some call "poke-voke" - the taunt in their attacks only hits the starts of the attacks, not like Tankers where even tehir single target attacks have an AoE taunt in it.
Orc&Pie No.53230 There is an orc, and somehow, he got a pie. And you are hungry.
www.repeat-offenders.net
Negaduck: I see you found the crumb. I knew you'd never notice the huge flag.
Less filling!
Tastes great!
Less filling!
Tastes great!
Apparently, I play "City of Shakespeare"
*Arc #95278-Gathering the Four Winds -3 step arc; challenging - 5 Ratings/3 Stars (still working out the kinks)
*Arc #177826-Lights, Camera, Scream! - 3 step arc, camp horror; try out in 1st person POV - 35 Ratings/4 Stars