Possible to have ulimited power selection?
By
Aett_Thorn,
Posted on: 2009-07-07 22:48 in Player Questions
Creating an archetype like this would essentially mean giving up on the entire archetype system. Why have characters with power restrictions if there are going to be characters without restrictions?
While the developers have never commented on such a possibility, I feel confident that their desire for game balance among the archetypes means this will never happen.
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Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe this is how the game originally worked back in Alpha or earlier, before they scrapped (if you'll pardon the pun) it for the Archetype system.
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The game originally was without the AT system - then char development was structured as such because of the ease of gimping and min/maxing for players both n00b and l733t.
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This idea has been posted many times before. To put it simply, I don't think this is anything close to a good idea. The fact that you use WoW as a feasibility model is kinda funny.
Also, the above posters mentioned that the game used to do this; however, the developers created the AT system for a reason... the open power selection model was unworkable.
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Besides, we have already have 2 ATs on each side that are a "jack of all trades", from the usual line up of 5.
Peacebringer/warshades, in human form have controls, blasts, debuff, and mitigation. In squid form, they have innate flight, and blaster atacks. In Crab form, they are (I think) some kind of middle line between scrappers/tanks in terms of damage/mitigation. Plus, they are buffed in various ways simply by having other ATs on their team.
VEATs... well, on a crab alone you have decent blasts (I have a full AoE only atack chain), more than sufficient defence/resistance, and a potential full compliment of 6 pets (not controllable, and on 4 minute timers, but still), and leadership toggles that cost less endurance, and provide a little more defence.
I won't get into the others much as I haven't played around with them.
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Possible? Yes. There's nothing stopping a character from having more than 2 powersets, except the interface. (Well, technically according to the game, power pools and APP/PPPs are also powersets, so each player has 4-7 powersets). Several critters display such ability to have multiple powersets, and I've seen a screenshot of Sexy Jay in-game, where he had every single Blaster power on a single character.
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Yeah but for players? No. And there's no reason for it. Alpha shunted out this idea because it didn't work.
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This idea has been posted many times before. To put it simply, I don't think this is anything close to a good idea. The fact that you use WoW as a feasibility model is kinda funny.
Also, the above posters mentioned that the game used to do this; however, the developers created the AT system for a reason... the open power selection model was unworkable.
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I wouldn't say "unworkable", more that the Devs found the game (and the players) easier to control with the more structured AT system.
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This idea has been posted many times before. To put it simply, I don't think this is anything close to a good idea. The fact that you use WoW as a feasibility model is kinda funny.
Also, the above posters mentioned that the game used to do this; however, the developers created the AT system for a reason... the open power selection model was unworkable.
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I wouldn't say "unworkable", more that the Devs found the game (and the players) easier to control with the more structured AT system.
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Not so much 'unworkable' as 'irredeemably broken'. As said, it'd be incredibly easy to make a completely useless gimp or a gamebreaking tankmage.
Champions Online is currently trying a more free-form system, but the restrictions seem to be creeping in.
The Dev's test characters tend to have every power for that AT and either most or all power/ancillary/patron pool powers on a character. Played against these during the big battle at the end of the CoV beta.
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The Dev's test characters tend to have every power for that AT and either most or all power/ancillary/patron pool powers on a character. Played against these during the big battle at the end of the CoV beta.
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How many freakin' trays do they need?
Forget the trays, imagine how hard slotting choices would be! 
I also find it funny that the OP mentions WoW Death Knights as an example of "it can work", since (last I played, a few months ago) the players of that game largely regard DKs as badly, badly broken.
DKs are still broken, but less obscenely so with each patch.
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This idea has been posted many times before. To put it simply, I don't think this is anything close to a good idea. The fact that you use WoW as a feasibility model is kinda funny.
Also, the above posters mentioned that the game used to do this; however, the developers created the AT system for a reason... the open power selection model was unworkable.
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I wouldn't say "unworkable", more that the Devs found the game (and the players) easier to control with the more structured AT system.
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Not so much 'unworkable' as 'irredeemably broken'. As said, it'd be incredibly easy to make a completely useless gimp or a gamebreaking tankmage.
Champions Online is currently trying a more free-form system, but the restrictions seem to be creeping in.
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Yeah despite the WoW Death Knight example I pretty much figured this "Can CoX support a character without AT restrictions?" question was inspired by what Champions Online is trying to do. 
As you point out even the Champions Online system is not completely free-form because I think they realize that having a system without restrictions of some kind is simply unworkable. The computerized AI of current MMOs basically need to have -some- kind of system of control and character class structures represents a degree of control proven to work.
I tend to see this kind of power selection thing for games on a spectrum running all the way from 100% free-form to 100% hardwired. I think the point is that a superhero MMO will likely never be pegged at one end of the spectrum or the other. They'll never make a game set at 100% hardwired because players would hate not having any choice over power selection and they'll never have a game set at 100% free-form because the game could never be balanced.
Many people think having complete power selection control is something players -should- have in a game like this. But those people don't seem the realize that games need to impose some restrictions or as you point out there would be nothing to stop us from making broken tankmages or unplayable gimps.
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Champions Online is currently trying a more free-form system, but the restrictions seem to be creeping in.
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I find this somewhat amusing, because back when I was hanging around with people who played the pen-and-paper Champions game.....
....they were constantly talking about all the restrictions GMs would put on character creation in an attempt to prevent the powergamers from making completely broken monster characters. 
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Champions Online is currently trying a more free-form system, but the restrictions seem to be creeping in.
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I find this somewhat amusing, because back when I was hanging around with people who played the pen-and-paper Champions game.....
....they were constantly talking about all the restrictions GMs would put on character creation in an attempt to prevent the powergamers from making completely broken monster characters.
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I think you hit on a key point concerning just how free-form a game's power choices can be and still work.
The main reason why the pen-and-paper Champions game works as well as it does is because you have a human GM there to flexibly regulate the game to make sure people don't end up creating characters that are too tankmagey or too gimpy.
Because computer-based MMOs don't have the advantage of having a live human there to control things they have to rely on pre-programmed systems which require a degree of control that almost by definition has to be more restrictive and static than any human GM would be. This is the main reason why pure 100% free-form MMOs will likely never happen, or at least are many years off at any rate.
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Champions Online is currently trying a more free-form system, but the restrictions seem to be creeping in.
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I find this somewhat amusing, because back when I was hanging around with people who played the pen-and-paper Champions game.....
....they were constantly talking about all the restrictions GMs would put on character creation in an attempt to prevent the powergamers from making completely broken monster characters.
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Exactly. Champions "Offline" (the pen-and-paper version) did not restrict you by archetypes, but it had suggested team roles as sort of loose categories to make it easier to describe characters: Brick (very roughly equivalent to our Tanker), Energy Blaster, Martial Artist, and so on. You could make just about any combination of powers, but it ONLY worked as a game if the GM carefully monitored the characters and was explicit about what he or she would allow. Players sometimes got strange ideas in their heads about what would "work," and it was better to hash that out beforehand than stop a good adventure for a long session of rules-lawyering or argument. I kept copies of all my players' character sheets and set guidelines for character design -- not out of the urge to control them, but so I'd have a firm idea of what sorts of appropriate threats and adventures to design.
Absent the game master, like in an MMO, I'm very dubious that unlimited selection would work.
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Well, despite the death knight being completely, irredeemably OP, people still play the game, and seem to get along [ to continue playing it] fine, do they not? That's why I bring up the point. It wasn't as though adding the DK caused some sort of player fallout of an apocalyptic scale to the game, so much as some complaining and nerf bat swinging.
And yes, the idea comes from champs online...a little bird [chirp chirp twitter twitter] told me a bit about it who happens to be in beta and while the system is currently unbalanced in terms of power damage and usefulness in beta, there is no problem with the selection system.
In fact, it was even mentioned that the players wanted even less control than what was being put on them, as they are forced to choose powers at certain levels that might not be the particular ones of a set they want.
For instance, a player wants to use her eye beams and assault rifle, but the next level all of the abilities she has to choose from are ones he doesn't particularly want, though she has no other option /but/ to choose a power. Hence, the whole kind of "choose any power you want" is somewhat sullied by the fact you are still forced at times to take those you don't want.
If that makes any sense =/
Though obviously, champs has yet to release, when it does, we'll see how well their system works. Though it's obvious someone thinks the topic of this thread is pretty viable, and is willing to put a lot of cash into the idea. (Though instead of adding an AT, which has consequences for the rest, and is infinitely more difficult, everone making everyone their favorite "tankmage")
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In any MMO, players will always push for less restrictions, and the Devs will always need to put some in to maintain some semblance of balance.
When you have 100,000 people playing a game, there needs to be a lot more balance in player levels than if you have 1 or 2 people in the game at a time.
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I'd like to add on top of what Aett Thorn just said... that if a system like that were offered, in no time, we'd be playing "City of Superpowered Clichés" and that's totally not the game I subscribed to, not to mention the balancing nightmare that would have to follow just so the game can be entertaining on a level higher than "Click the I-Win button of your choice".
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Well, despite the death knight being completely, irredeemably OP, people still play the game, and seem to get along [ to continue playing it] fine, do they not? That's why I bring up the point. It wasn't as though adding the DK caused some sort of player fallout of an apocalyptic scale to the game, so much as some complaining and nerf bat swinging.
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Or to put it much more simply:
The min/maxers would build whatever they decided the über build was, no one else would be able to get on a team, and the game would die.
Yes I think I understand the basic desire you have to be able to play a game that would let you choose any power you want so that you can develop any concept imaginable. That's an obvious "Holy Grail" for any player of a game like this. But I think we have far too much evidence to support the conclusion that free-form games don't really work in the "real world" and possibly never will:
A) To begin with your WoW Death Knight example seems to be far from perfect. At the very least it appears to be very debatable whether the concept behind that class actually "works" as well as you are claiming it does. The DK is probably only tolerated in WoW because it's a single broken class among others that are better balanced. I suspect if all the classes in WoW worked like the DK does then you'd have the chaos you were questioning. As IanTheM1 implied the fact that the DK hasn't destroyed WoW yet doesn't mean it's a -good- thing for that game.
B) Then there's the point that the Devs of Champions Online are already imposing certain amounts of control on their system to provide game balance. My guess is that they would not be putting those controls in place if they weren't required.
C) Ironically Cryptic (the folks working on CO now) originally tried to make CoH be a free-form game during its Alpha stages and the outcome of that was so disastrous from a game balance perspective they had to impose ATs and powersets on this game as damage control to finally make it work.
D) Then you have the fact that even pen-n-paper RPGs that are widely known for having free-form systems really only work because you have human GMs there to impose the flexible arbitration required to make those systems work. Until we have MMOs run by HAL 9000 type computers they won't have the AI horsepower necessary to control things as well as a human could.
Bottomline while it's probably safe to say players will ALWAYS want to have free-form games it's probably also safe to say games will ALWAYS have to have safeguards in place to make sure players don't run amuck with that desire.
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Warcraft is probably a bad example. While DKs are overpowered due to some abilities that are obnoxious in PvP, those same abilities are of limited use in PvE, and DKs will never serve in any healing role, and offer limited part-wide buffs.
As someone who does play the jack-of-all-trades druid class, my versatility comes at a cost. I can tank or heal, but not at the same time. If I tank, my heals and mana pool are about %50 of what they need to be. If I heal, my health pool and damage are about %50 they need to be. Playing both roles means that I have to grind and play twice as much for the same gear. The game forces characters to specialize if they are going to be effective.
Perhaps a better example of an open-ended character development model is EVE. But there the limitation on character development center on time and money. If you've invested the months of training time required to get into elite mining vessels, you are looking at more months of training time to get into capital warships. The estimated time required to master all skills for all roles in the game is considerably longer than the game has been live.
At any rate, it is a basic of game design to force characters to make hard choices regarding what kind of strategy they will develop. This is true for MMOs, and it's true of older games as well.
Does anyone have the technical savvy or has heard a definitive answer, as to whither or not it is possibly (technically) or in the works to give players an archetype that allows them access to all existing powers?
Obviously, such a thing has it's own problems, especially when it comes to balance. Though frankly, blizzard seems to have suffered little with releasing their over-powered-jack-of-all trades-and-master-as-well, so it can be done.
If such a thing were possible, it would be well worth its own issue or even expansion.
Mind you, the concept here is that a player would be allowed to create an avatar, of which, would be able to choose from all existing power sets. Though they would only be able to add powers and enhancement slots as per the norm, their powers could be taken from any pool existing in the game (Within reason. No hamidon replication or vahizhilok arm guns).
For instance, a person could take a kick from the martial arts set, then a pistol attack, then a heal from medicine, and the LRM that NPC's (used to?) use.
This would allow a level of customization that would undoubtedly raise the bar...but the original archetypes would suffer. The method of making such a character, or obtaining the ability to do so, would have to be difficult, vigorous, rare, or highly moderated.
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