Possible to have ulimited power selection?

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Yes I think I understand the basic desire you have to be able to play a game that would let you choose any power you want so that you can develop any concept imaginable. That's an obvious "Holy Grail" for any player of a game like this. But I think we have far too much evidence to support the conclusion that a free-form games don't really work in the "real world" and possibly never will:

A) To begin with your WoW Death Knight example seems to be far from perfect. At the very least it appears to be very debatable whether the concept behind that class actually "works" as well as you are claiming it does. The DK is probably only tolerated in WoW because it's a single broken class among others that are better balanced. I suspect if all the classes in WoW worked like the DK does then you'd have the chaos you were questioning. As IanTheM1 implied the fact that the DK hasn't destroyed WoW yet doesn't mean it's a -good- thing for that game.

B) Then there's the point that the Devs of Champions Online are already imposing certain amounts of control on their system to provide game balance. My guess is that they would not be putting those controls in place if they weren't required.

C) Ironically Cryptic (the folks working on CO now) originally tried to make CoH be a free-form game during its Alpha stages and the outcome of that was so disastrous from a game balance perspective they had to impose ATs and powersets on this game as damage control to finally make it work.

D) Then you have the fact that even pen-n-paper RPGs that are widely known for having free-form systems really only work because you have human GMs there to impose the flexible arbitration required to make those systems work. Until we have MMOs run by HAL 9000 type computers they won't have the AI horsepower necessary to control things as well as a human could.

Bottomline while it's probably safe to say players will ALWAYS want to have free-form games it's probably also safe to say games will ALWAYS have to have safeguards in place to make sure players don't run amuck with that desire.

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This. Not to mention using WoW AT ALL for any idea of balance is silly, since EVERY (and I meant that literally) patch in WoW since it's launch has come with rebalances, tweaks, and nerfs. To ALL classes, included their vaunted DK Class (which they have just started outright nerfing and rebalancing with the last patch and upcoming patches, cause yes, the class is BROKEN in some areas.), they constantly refund each players points--basically a freespec necessitated every patch.

And the DK btw is NOT really a freeform class despite what the OP says. I've played it, it's nothing different that the other classes. DKs DO NOT get to choose any power they want in the game, ala Champions Online (which as others have stated is not really freeform either is it now? ). DKs can ONLY choose those abilities in their tree. Just like every other class in WoW they get 3 trees and CANNOT mix and max abilities from the trees. So I have no idea why the DK class is talked about in the same sentence as Champions Online. Just saying.

TL;DR: Blizzard doesn't know the meaning of balance since they constantly having to do mini EDs each patch. And the DK class isn't a free form class AT ALL.

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DKs are primarily unbalanced in PvP, which in Warcraft history has always had an overpowered flavor of the month. Rogues, Warlocks, and Paladins all had their time in the PvP sun.

Many players never PvP, and it's less clear as to how DKs perform in other aspects of the game. They are quite probably easier to solo than other classes. They don't seem to have a reputation as "must-have" DPS or tanks that I'm aware of.

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DKs are primarily unbalanced in PvP, which in Warcraft history has always had an overpowered flavor of the month. Rogues, Warlocks, and Paladins all had their time in the PvP sun.

Many players never PvP, and it's less clear as to how DKs perform in other aspects of the game. They are quite probably easier to solo than other classes. They don't seem to have a reputation as "must-have" DPS or tanks that I'm aware of.

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This is all true, but has nothing to do with being a free form class that the op was alluding to.

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Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!

So the Dk is obviously a bad example (as is WoW for balance. But find me a balanced MMO and I'll find you a liar] , but I'm pretty hard pressed to find an MMO most can relate to, with an obviously over powered class playing with normal classes. I was not aware that CoH was originally free form..that's an interesting tiddbit...

But as I've said before...depending on how champions does things, its quite apparent wither the idea would be possible to implement or not. If I'm not mistaken, DCUO is following the same suit in terms of freeform power selection. It seems everyone is thinking I'm talking about freeform as in completely and absolutely free form. Of course, I've never said anything to the contrary ,so that's my mistake...but the selection process of powers is still something that can be freeform, and regulated at the same time.

For instance, No, you can't have full auto, nova, emp missile, summon oni, and rise from the ashes as your powerset. However, you would be able to select from all sets in the same sort of scaling the game currently uses. Start with burst from AR, or smite from DM, or whatever what have you, and build up from there.
Of course, it would be susceptible to min maxing...but let's face it. The game clearly already has plenty of min/maxing about with particular power sets. How many SS brutes do you see in comparison to stone or war mace? In my personal experience, the former far outnumbers the latter.

Regardless of what you put in the game, some will play for concept or for fun, and some will play for min/maxing. Just because a blaster chooses to use AR as opposed to Energy, and his effectiveness in pvp is considered to be less, does that mean that Energy should not exist because it's too overpowered in such a state?

The class could have specific values for it's abilities (Much as the modifiers between corrs and defenders/blasters) or even specifically tailored versions of powers for it's choosing, and would have limitations on certain effects (Only two superior dmg attacks, one extreme, one heal...) but regardless, considering there are two games coming out based on the principal of freeform power selection, I would imagine it is feasible.

Though once again, feasible in a game with normal classes is another question entirely.

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Regardless of what you put in the game, some will play for concept or for fun, and some will play for min/maxing.

[/ QUOTE ]And the Developers should make sure that the gap between the two is as small as possible.

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Just because a blaster chooses to use AR as opposed to Energy, and his effectiveness in pvp is considered to be less, does that mean that Energy should not exist because it's too overpowered in such a state?

[/ QUOTE ]It means Energy or AR are out of line and need to be fixed.



Besides, both Kheldians and Soldiers of Arachnos are rather free-form.

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I think it is -possible- to have a game with CO's version of power selection or DCUO's version of power selection in the world because, low and behold, they are actually developing those games to be that way as we speak. But I think it's another matter entirely to take an established class-based game like CoX and try to redesign it to be more like those games on any fundamental level like that.

Besides KitsuneKnight reminded us of the very important point that this game's epic ATs are already effectively superset ATs that have a wide range of power choices normally found spread across multiple other ATs. That's really what makes them "epic" to begin with. I believe the epic ATs are just about as close as this game is ever going to get to your "free-form" power selection concept.

I understand that some people play games to min/max and other people play for concepts. The concern is that free-form power selection not only enables better concept characters but it -also- enables more extreme min/maxing. It's a double-edged sword that games like this are always going to have to strike a balance for.

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@ KitsuneKnight
Not necessarily. AR is more AoE and has a more highly resisted damage type, but it's fairly quick in animations (post-buff) accurate and lower in end cost, if memory serves.

Energy is a rarely resisted damage type, has knockback, and a very prolific nuke.

Each has it's pros and cons.

Though I certainly agree that min/maxing and playing for fun and concept aught to be as close as possible and with as little advantage as possible to min maxers. People should be able to play what they want (within reason) and not be penalized for it.

@Lothic
I've pointed out that problem with classless "Classes" in a classified game a few times too...it's the obvious dilemma, and there's really no getting around it without a lot of work.

But I certainly agree that giving people such power [as free selection provides] will cause many to exploit it to it's fullest as opposed to creating their concept. Both are simply different styles of play, and neither is really wrong per-say...but min/maxing can ruin the game for those looking to simply play a concept (as they fall behind), not the other way around.

Regardless, who knows. Maybe they will start to make more multi-teir classes such as our two epic AT's?

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Well for what it's worth we are getting the Going Rogue expansion which is going to be giving us a third "city" to play in. It's quite likely that they will be trying to implement the "Spy" AT they hinted at back in the infamous Market Survey of August 2008 and for all we know it'll be more flexible in terms of how its powers work. It will not be 100% free-form no matter what it is, but it could be something closer to what you are suggesting.

So while I highly doubt any changes are going to be made in how the CoH or CoV ATs work we may still have hope for something that will compete with what the new games are doing in the Going Rogue expansion.

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Mutants and Masterminds is also a Pen-and-Paper superhero RPG, and it has limitations on how many ranks of a power you can take, and how bonuses stack.

However, as the GM, you still have to pay attention to players who build, within the rules, characters who are exploitative.

"No, you cannot be Insubstantial (but still able to affect the material world) and constantly Concealed, and have a Force Field, and be Invisible, and have a capped Defense."

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I've seen a screenshot of Sexy Jay in-game, where he had every single Blaster power on a single character.

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The devs definitely have an internal way of doing this, or at least making their player info boxes display that they are doing it. Looked at BABs's player info during the anniversary celebration thing a month or two back and I think he had every power of every power set and they all had to be 6 slotted with purple, or highest available for the enhancement category, sets given the number of bonus sets it had listed, but he is a dev so. So they CAN do it, but I think they probably won't ever give something like that do the general player base because of balance issues trying to keep people from min-maxing and becoming WAY too powerful. The closest I think we'll probably get is the Kheldians and the VEATs to some degree who's powersets have a little bit of ranged, melee, defense, control, support, and summon powers available.

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there is also the compromise of making more AT's that mix the powerset combos you can make, kind of giving you the almost control-less model you are looking for. like maybe a melee/buff-debuff AT. i have no idea if this would work well, i just really want a rad melee/rad emission scrap-thingy

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I think it is -possible- to have a game with CO's version of power selection or DCUO's version of power selection in the world because, low and behold, they are actually developing those games to be that way as we speak.

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You know, the sorry history of vaporware in the superhero computer game genre (and I'm not just talking MMOs) inclines me to say "publish or it didn't happen." Ar either of those two games released yet? (Honest question -- I haven't kept up.) Until they are released, they can SAY anything they want about their system and it's all talk. Remember COH had a classless system too before it released.

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I think it is -possible- to have a game with CO's version of power selection or DCUO's version of power selection in the world because, low and behold, they are actually developing those games to be that way as we speak.

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You know, the sorry history of vaporware in the superhero computer game genre (and I'm not just talking MMOs) inclines me to say "publish or it didn't happen." Ar either of those two games released yet? (Honest question -- I haven't kept up.) Until they are released, they can SAY anything they want about their system and it's all talk. Remember COH had a classless system too before it released.

[/ QUOTE ]CO isn't out yet, but it is in closed beta (as I recall).

DCUO isn't out yet, and that's all I know at the moment.

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The devs just love doing it because they can, I think, and they know better than anyone how overpowered it is.

As said above, both Epic Archetypes already fit the jack-of-all-trades mould fairly well, and most people seem happy with the choices we have already.

And to be honest, if this game was entirely free-form when I first joined, I'd probably have been overwhelmed.

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I think it is -possible- to have a game with CO's version of power selection or DCUO's version of power selection in the world because, low and behold, they are actually developing those games to be that way as we speak.

[/ QUOTE ]

You know, the sorry history of vaporware in the superhero computer game genre (and I'm not just talking MMOs) inclines me to say "publish or it didn't happen." Ar either of those two games released yet? (Honest question -- I haven't kept up.) Until they are released, they can SAY anything they want about their system and it's all talk. Remember COH had a classless system too before it released.

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Yeah, and never mind vaporware, look at some of the stuff that made it to the shelves; "Procedural animation" my rear end...

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