For all you billionaire flippers...
By
AgentMountaineer,
Posted on: 2009-07-07 01:47 in The Market and Inventions
On my characters with hundreds of millions, I rarely involve them in items that don't profit 10M or more per transaction. I don't know about others. But for me, once I hit a couple hundred million, I don't use the market much, so work with slow moving items to get those numbers. Some of the better marketeers probably do much faster and larger transactions than I do.
RagManX
"if the market were religion Fulmens would be Moses and you'd be L. Ron Hubbard. " --Nethergoat to eryq2
The economy is not broken. The players are
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What do you consider a worthwhile flip? As in, for one recipe flipped, how much profit is considered worthwhile? 1 mil? 10? 50?
Just a noob starting to do this wondering. I've been doing about 25 mil per enhancement, selling one or two a day.
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I just pretty much feel my way around.
My minimums are...
500% margins for Pool A, B and C.
25% for LotGs7.5, LotG Defenses, Miracle uniques and Numina Heal, Heal/Rech and uniques, et al.
Purples: I only sell them these days.
Repeat Offenders
I don't flip enhancements, I flip recipes and I consider it flip worthy if I can make at least 500k per recipe, which would be 5 million per slot if I am selling 10 recipes in that slot.
QR: Whatever feels good. I'm only crapping out 4.5M a slot on the market right now, but that's only eleven perfect days to 1B. I'll probably hit 3B on this guy sometime next week. (1B stored in a market slot.)
Why? I'm not really sure.
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Post deleted by Fuzzitron
I was getting greedy in the Inf Destruction Project, trying to shuffle things with really high priced tags AND make money. I've pulled in my horns a little (where does that phrase come from? It makes no sense. They're HORNS, they're fixed, that's how they work. Right? ) and gone back to making 5-10 million on a 5-10 million investment, per item lovingly handcrafted and sold. (I don't like "Crap" as a portmanteau word. For some reason.)
I would like to go through ten slots a day a character. Also I would like a pony.
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What makes an acceptable margin all depends on your turnover rate. If you only want to check the market once a week, you'll want to play for a wider profit margin. If you're going to check your market goodies daily (which is what I generally do), smaller margins with higher turnover rates will earn you inf just as fast.
I don't 'flip' items, I make my inf through manufacturing. Most of the time I'm just crafting generic IOs, because I can do that without paying attention to what I'm doing. But to make serious inf, I pick a rare, in demand recipe I can buy and craft (also buying the necessary salvage) and sell for a reasonable profit. My profit margins are anywhere from 3-10 M. I try to work with 3-4 different recipes at a time, so short-term fluctuations might dry up the demand for one IO, but I'm always moving *something* through.
I think my goal would be to keep my overall rate at >40M/hr or more for time spent. I haven't been marketeering for a few issues, but once I felt out what I could "farm" by 5-boxing (which was about 30M an hour or so, although that was pre-MA, so maybe I could abuse MA more), I felt like marketeering should yield more to be viable. (Although marketeering is "easier" than 5-boxing)
Anyhow, I'd be fine flipping for 200k or 1M profits if I can bid on stacks and sell stacks with little attention and great reliability.
But I found in practice that my best money was made by putting in a ton of lowball bids across many levels of very valuable IOs (miracle, numina, lotg, etc), crafting them, and selling the crafted copies at high rates. (I'd price high enough that my median time to sell was over one week)
This often netted me >40M per purchase, but there were days I'd log in and find I hadn't bought anything and had nothing to flip, so it balanced out times when I might make 3 sales.
Of course, Nethergoat (*wave*) sort of ruined that with his explicit outing of LotGs in particular and the discussion of the profitability of really expensive IOs in general. It's not that you couldn't make a profit, but at least at the time, it shrunk the profit dramatically, and the increased amount of flipping actually LOWERED the high-end price of LotGs because more flippers meant more availability - when I had the ONLY sub-L50 LotG on the market, I could get whatever I wanted, even if that was a new all-time high price.
My last splash was a game mechanics play - when merits were coming out, I decided LotGs and Big IOs would drop in price due to people buying them directly, and that the lack of people getting random rolls would drive prices on modest-demand IOs that were important through the roof. (ie, Celerity: Stealth, Posi: % energy, etc)
When merits rolled I was sitting on over 100 Celerity:Stealths, for example, purchased at 200-500k each. I bought out over 80 L50 ones.
I rolled those all back out to the market for 4-8M each, roughly. So the profit per IO was fairly modest by my standards (3-7M, say), but in the aggregate - it was quite a score. Over a hundred stealths, probably 30+ Posi %Energy, and a handful of others, and I think I netted well over a billion (probably ~1.3-1.5B) for what amounted to perhaps 2-3 hours worth of work... I literally bought them all in less than an hour, mostly just scanning prices of Pool Cs to determine viability, and then buying out anything reasonable. Then I would do quick logins after that, and collect infl and list 5-10 recipes, which took under 10 minutes. Smaller profits than the big flips of yesterday, but hundreds of them done in a short period of time.
I think it's probably very common for salvage flippers to eek out 50-100k profits, but they probably do it with buying and selling 100x+ at a time, and probably place and collect their bids and sales in minutes, so their profits per hour are similar.
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Of course, Nethergoat (*wave*) sort of ruined that with his explicit outing of LotGs in particular and the discussion of the profitability of really expensive IOs in general. It's not that you couldn't make a profit, but at least at the time, it shrunk the profit dramatically, and the increased amount of flipping actually LOWERED the high-end price of LotGs because more flippers meant more availability - when I had the ONLY sub-L50 LotG on the market, I could get whatever I wanted, even if that was a new all-time high price.
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And yet, 'casual gamers' still call me eeeebil! =(
My current mini-obsession is finding severely undervalued recipes, stuff with low-ish incoming supply that's been selling for 5,000,000+ with zero for sale. I put in a bunch of bids for the going rate, then re-list them at a ridiculous, comically huge markup.
For extra eeeebil, I wait until I've stockpiled a bunch before I unveil what they're actually 'worth'.
So far its been a gold mine. Anything halfway decent in this game with 0 for sale is drastically undervalued. Some players absolutely will pay multiples of the 'last 5' price for the convenience of having it NAO, even if that means dropping 20 million on something that's only 'worth' 5.
/edit
Addressing the OP's question:
IMHO any profit is good profit. I've done everything in this game for inf from muleing recipes to the vendor to flipping purples. Only you can tell what the 'right' balance of time/energy to profit is for your play style.
Mess around with different schemes and see what fits you best.
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Of course, Nethergoat (*wave*) sort of ruined that with his explicit outing of LotGs in particular and the discussion of the profitability of really expensive IOs in general. It's not that you couldn't make a profit, but at least at the time, it shrunk the profit dramatically, and the increased amount of flipping actually LOWERED the high-end price of LotGs because more flippers meant more availability - when I had the ONLY sub-L50 LotG on the market, I could get whatever I wanted, even if that was a new all-time high price.
[/ QUOTE ]
And yet, 'casual gamers' still call me eeeebil! =(
My current mini-obsession is finding severely undervalued recipes, stuff with low-ish incoming supply that's been selling for 5,000,000+ with zero for sale. I put in a bunch of bids for the going rate, then re-list them at a ridiculous, comically huge markup.
For extra eeeebil, I wait until I've stockpiled a bunch before I unveil what they're actually 'worth'.
So far its been a gold mine. Anything halfway decent in this game with 0 for sale is drastically undervalued. Some players absolutely will pay multiples of the 'last 5' price for the convenience of having it NAO, even if that means dropping 20 million on something that's only 'worth' 5.
/edit
Addressing the OP's question:
IMHO any profit is good profit. I've done everything in this game for inf from muleing recipes to the vendor to flipping purples. Only you can tell what the 'right' balance of time/energy to profit is for your play style.
Mess around with different schemes and see what fits you best.
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EEEEEEEEEEEEEBIL!!!
Fulmens: I put a pony up for sale on the market today. I went backed and checked on it and found out it was actualy an unnamed ebil goat. So Sorry!
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I was getting greedy in the Inf Destruction Project, trying to shuffle things with really high priced tags AND make money. I've pulled in my horns a little (where does that phrase come from? It makes no sense. They're HORNS, they're fixed, that's how they work. Right? ) and gone back to making 5-10 million on a 5-10 million investment, per item lovingly handcrafted and sold. (I don't like "Crap" as a portmanteau word. For some reason.)
I would like to go through ten slots a day a character. Also I would like a pony.
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just fyi Ful:
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pull in one's horns idiom
Also, draw in one's horns.
Retreat, back down, restrain oneself, as in The town manager wanted higher taxes but public reaction made him draw in his horns. This expression alludes to the snail's habit of drawing in the soft projecting parts of its body when it is threatened. The idea was first expressed in the 15th century as shrink one's horns, and the idiom with draw developed about the same time. The idiom with pull did not appear until a century later.
Reduce expenses, as in That drop in profits will force the company to pull in its horns. [Late 1800s]
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http://www.yourdictionary.com/idioms...in-one-s-horns
was an interesting question, thought i'd look. 
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I try to shoot for 5-10 mil minimum per character per day, and I use 9 characters on my main server.
Of course I haven't found the best niches so that doesn't happen everyday.
I am an ebil markeeter and will steal your moneiz ...correction stole your moneiz. I support keeping the poor down because it is impossible to make moneiz in this game.
[ QUOTE ]
What do you consider a worthwhile flip? As in, for one recipe flipped, how much profit is considered worthwhile? 1 mil? 10? 50?
Just a noob starting to do this wondering. I've been doing about 25 mil per enhancement, selling one or two a day.
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For me, turnover rate is an important factor. I'll work things that don't return much if I know I'm going to make it up in volume sales.
Overall, I shoot for 100 mil a day on any character I'm not just goofing around with. I usually hit that mark. This is with casual market play, logging in a few times a day for 10 minutes or so.
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My current mini-obsession is finding severely undervalued recipes, stuff with low-ish incoming supply that's been selling for 5,000,000+ with zero for sale. I put in a bunch of bids for the going rate, then re-list them at a ridiculous, comically huge markup.
For extra eeeebil, I wait until I've stockpiled a bunch before I unveil what they're actually 'worth'.
So far its been a gold mine. Anything halfway decent in this game with 0 for sale is drastically undervalued. Some players absolutely will pay multiples of the 'last 5' price for the convenience of having it NAO, even if that means dropping 20 million on something that's only 'worth' 5.
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Interesting that you should mention this, I found one of these niches the other day and have been considering whether it's worth my while to fill up slots with buy orders on this one item. I'm thinking yes.
I got a recipe from a gold roll that was relatively meh at first glance. However, upon further examination of the market, it seemed there were NONE for sale at any level but 50. So I put mine up for 10m where last 5 were in the 1-2m range and it was gone within hours. Now I'm kicking myself for not posting higher. I may have to exploit this niche for a bit and then smack my niche up when I break a bil.
To the OP: I prefer a mix of low margin/high turnover and high margin/low turnover. High margin for me is 5mil+ profit per slot. Low margin is 1mil or less per slot. Keep in mind that you should be thinking "per slot" not "per item".
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I got a recipe from a gold roll that was relatively meh at first glance. However, upon further examination of the market, it seemed there were NONE for sale at any level but 50. So I put mine up for 10m where last 5 were in the 1-2m range and it was gone within hours. Now I'm kicking myself for not posting higher.
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Exactly what I'm talking about.
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My City Was Gone
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What do you consider a worthwhile flip? As in, for one recipe flipped, how much
profit is considered worthwhile? 1 mil? 10? 50?
Just a noob starting to do this wondering. I've been doing about 25 mil per enhancement,
selling one or two a day.
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You're heard the old investment saw: "Any time you can make 10% on your money,
take it".
It's too LOW here... 
For many low-range items, 5-10X your expenses isn't unusual... buy uncommon salvage
for 10K and flip it for 100K... Bingo 10X profit (less fees)
For mid-range items, doubling or tripling your investment is pretty common. Buy and
craft a recipe for 2M and sell the product for 5M or 6M... nice.
For high-end items, your percentages take a big hit, but the actual influence amounts
we're talking about are much higher. Buy a purple recipe for 120M, craft and sell it for
155M... Ignoring fees and such, it's only ~23% profit, but it's 35 fricking Million influence
in one transaction!
All quibbling aside about whether to craft or not, or do straight flips or not is up to the
individual. Those sorts of profit margins are the way I personally look at it (I usually
prefer to craft rather than straight flip - value-added service, don'tcha know).
So, to spit in the eye of RL wisdom - if you're settling for 10% or so, in this game, you're
a slacker who's doing it wrong!
Cheers,
4
I've been rich, and I've been poor. Rich is definitely better.
Light is faster than sound - that's why some people look smart until they speak.
For every seller who leaves the market dirty stinkin' rich,
there's a buyer who leaves the market dirty stinkin' IOed. - Obitus.
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Buy a purple recipe for 120M, craft and sell it for
155M... Ignoring fees and such, it's only ~23% profit, but it's 35 fricking Million influence
in one transaction!
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You ignore 15.5 mio in fees?!
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Buy a purple recipe for 120M, craft and sell it for
155M... Ignoring fees and such, it's only ~23% profit, but it's 35 fricking Million influence
in one transaction!
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You ignore 15.5 mio in fees?!
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cheap
I don't pay any attention to fees as long as I can still turn a profit.
I'd feed the market monster 15 million inf in return for 35 million seven days a week and twice on sunday. =)
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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Buy a purple recipe for 120M, craft and sell it for
155M... Ignoring fees and such, it's only ~23% profit, but it's 35 fricking Million influence
in one transaction!
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You ignore 15.5 mio in fees?!
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I knew *someone* would just have to go there...
Let's walk thru this, shall we, since the point is being pummeled by the specifics?
Recipe: 120M
Salvage: ~2M
Craft: 450k (with discount coupon)
----------------------------------------
Total Manufacture Cost: ~122.5 M
Sell: 155M
Fee: 15.5M (Listing fee is part of that already)
-------------------------------------------------------
Revenue: 139.5M
Profit = 17M (everything considered)
%ROI = 13.8%
The *point* was the percentage return value gets hit hard on the high-end stuff, but you
got SEVENTEEN fricking Million for ONE slot....
How many of *those* transactions would you like to have, sir???
Or, put another way, how much uncommon salvage to you need to flip to match that?
Cheers,
4
PS> That's a pretty tight one - typically, I break 20M per on the ones I've actually done.
I've been rich, and I've been poor. Rich is definitely better.
Light is faster than sound - that's why some people look smart until they speak.
For every seller who leaves the market dirty stinkin' rich,
there's a buyer who leaves the market dirty stinkin' IOed. - Obitus.
Now take the profit and multiply it by 10 for a full stack and suddenly you're 170 Million richer. Yeah...the fees are *terrible*!!!!
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What do you consider a worthwhile flip? As in, for one recipe flipped, how much profit is considered worthwhile? 1 mil? 10? 50?
Just a noob starting to do this wondering. I've been doing about 25 mil per enhancement, selling one or two a day.
[/ QUOTE ] Recently I've been looking at Purple Enhancements that have zero for sale and I'll buy the recipe, craft it, and sell it at a new high price. Been working out for me. Anywhere from 20-80 million profit per enhancement depending how patient I wanna be when I buy the recipe.
When I craft I look for a 30% markup over crafting costs (recipe, salvage, cost to craft). The market gets about half of that 30% and I get the remaining 15%. If I sell something and it goes for substantially more than my asking price, my cut of course goes up dramatically.
I happen to be concentrating on Purples right now. Some scary things going on with the price of Purples (up, up, up). My 15% on those usually bring me something like 20 million profit for each Purple I sell. Give or take.
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What do you consider a worthwhile flip? As in, for one recipe flipped, how much profit is considered worthwhile? 1 mil? 10? 50?
Just a noob starting to do this wondering. I've been doing about 25 mil per enhancement, selling one or two a day.
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