Challenge and Desirability of Powersets
By
Adult_Swim,
Posted on: 2009-07-06 20:43 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Okay
poop
QR
You have a lot of villains in your 50s list. Surely CoV has shown you that any old collection of ATs mashed together can make a perfectly viable team for almost all (i.e., not RSF as far as CoV is concerned) things a team wants to do.
Edit: Note to devs: You really [censored] up on RSF, didn't you? Said, by the way, by someone who has completed it many times with many ATs. The one thing I fear about Going Rogue is the number of tanker/defender/controllers who are going to be considered mandatory for RSF.
"Hi, my name is Ail. I make people sick."
A partial selection from my 50's on Freedom: Ail = Ice/Traps, Luck = Street Justice/Super Reflexes Stalker, Mist = Bane, Pixy = Trick Arrow/Archery, Pure = Gravity/Energy, Smoke = Fire/Fire Dominator
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The one thing I fear about Going Rogue is the number of tanker/defender/controllers who are going to be considered mandatory for RSF.
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At least then it won't be any different than the STF, where most people won't even consider running it without a granite tank, empath, rad, and kin.
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Edit: Note to devs: You really [censored] up on RSF, didn't you? Said, by the way, by someone who has completed it many times with many ATs.
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So have I. One of the most memorable was with 3 brutes, 3 widow/fort's, a dom (not perma mind) and a (i think) fire/cold corr. We woud have got master too, if BABs hadnt landed 2 lucky hits in a row on the /fire brute.
I've also done the last fight (Pre Master badge) without anyone taking a death with the /stone brute teleporting into the middle of the heroes.
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The one thing I fear about Going Rogue is the number of tanker/defender/controllers who are going to be considered mandatory for RSF.
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You can't stop people from being stupid. There are people who swear that a healer is mandatory for ANY content, even if you have a team with a Tank leading who has 90% RES and 45%+ DEF. I know, because I've argued with them. Several times.
People are just going to stick with what they know. If they don't know any better than to throw Granite+Kin at every situation, they're going to continue to try and do that everywhere they go, including redside. But those are just some players. I tend to avoid any teams who call out for "Granite Tank" or "healer." I'll take any tank (even if the tank is a Brute) and any support set.
Personally, I'd rather throw a handful of VEATs at any problem I may have than go look for a Granite Tank with a pocket Kin.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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rad
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Why does rad suddenly seem to be back on people's lists of what you absolutely super-duper must have to ever kill an AV ever ever? Did I miss something, or are people still stuck on the 'omg it's got the super best -regen!' thing, even though that's no longer true?
Having Vengeance and Fallout slotted for recharge means never having to say you're sorry.
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rad
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Why does rad suddenly seem to be back on people's lists of what you absolutely super-duper must have to ever kill an AV ever ever? Did I miss something, or are people still stuck on the 'omg it's got the super best -regen!' thing, even though that's no longer true?
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Not only does it not have the best -regen, but AV regen isn't very high to begin with.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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rad
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Why does rad suddenly seem to be back on people's lists of what you absolutely super-duper must have to ever kill an AV ever ever? Did I miss something, or are people still stuck on the 'omg it's got the super best -regen!' thing, even though that's no longer true?
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Not only does it not have the best -regen, but AV regen isn't very high to begin with.
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But it's no longer unresistable or whatever was happening issues and issues ago when it was leagues better than every other -regen in the game... and it's been shown that -res and +dam are both pretty damn good at speeding up AV deaths too. It just seems like I've seen an odd amount of 'ZOMG WE CAN'T TAKE ON AN AV WITHOUT RAD!!!!' lately, making me wonder if I've been sent back in time.
Having Vengeance and Fallout slotted for recharge means never having to say you're sorry.
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rad
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Why does rad suddenly seem to be back on people's lists of what you absolutely super-duper must have to ever kill an AV ever ever? Did I miss something, or are people still stuck on the 'omg it's got the super best -regen!' thing, even though that's no longer true?
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Because every common notion of "we need x" or "x is the best at this" is wrong, mostly wrong, dead wrong, or "marginally right if you look at it like this and only this and ignore everything else". In short a significant amount of people are dumb.
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rad
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Why does rad suddenly seem to be back on people's lists of what you absolutely super-duper must have to ever kill an AV ever ever? Did I miss something, or are people still stuck on the 'omg it's got the super best -regen!' thing, even though that's no longer true?
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Because every common notion of "we need x" or "x is the best at this" is wrong, mostly wrong, dead wrong, or "marginally right if you look at it like this and only this and ignore everything else". In short a significant amount of people are dumb.
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Okay, that's what I suspected. Just had to make sure my rad wasn't supremely buffed overnight without my knowledge.
Having Vengeance and Fallout slotted for recharge means never having to say you're sorry.
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You can't stop people from being stupid. There are people who swear that a healer is mandatory for ANY content, even if you have a team with a Tank leading who has 90% RES and 45%+ DEF. I know, because I've argued with them. Several times.
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Eh... they're entitled to their ideas of teams, I s'pose. I did ~15-45 yesterday in a series of pickup group 53 & 54 boss farms without tanks or healers, so clearly I'm doing something wrong by their standards, but I do what works for me and they do what works for them.
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Edit: Note to devs: You really [censored] up on RSF, didn't you? Said, by the way, by someone who has completed it many times with many ATs.
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So have I. One of the most memorable was with 3 brutes, 3 widow/fort's, a dom (not perma mind) and a (i think) fire/cold corr. We woud have got master too, if BABs hadnt landed 2 lucky hits in a row on the /fire brute.
I've also done the last fight (Pre Master badge) without anyone taking a death with the /stone brute teleporting into the middle of the heroes.
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Oh, well, good to know it's [censored] based on luck rather than skill.
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While in a team earlier tonight I realized that the desirability of certain Powersets and even certain ATs can wax and wane with the difficulty of the enemy. I felt it odd that I never realized this before.
Tanks can be a wonderful thing to keep the attention off of the squishies and tie up the enemy. But on a mission where most of the enemies con white or less the AT becomes less desirable because the threat from the enemy is less and more damage or control might do the job just as well or better.
The same thing goes for Empathy. Many teams STILL cry for a 'healer' from time to time but when the enemy is relatively weak there is less need for team buffs and more control or damage might be just as good or better.
Some Powersets, like Kinetics, are always desired because they bring a lot of utility to the team in any circumstance. Between the AoE Heal, the Transference, Fulcrum Shift and the ever-popular Speed Boost Kin is just a handy set to have around. In tough fights this is even more apparent where the damage buff from FS can mean the difference between victory and defeat.
Players who are struggling with some ATs or Powersets finding teams might want to consider forming their own and raising the Difficulty a notch or two. The guy who says the team can live without Bubbles or healing or whatever might change his tune when the enemy is all red con to him and his Health Bar is at 20% and falling...
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This is one angle to look at it from, I agree with what you are saying here, but I look at it from a different angle.
Theoretically, the devs have designed this game around "average" when it comes to difficulty. "Average" skill level players with "average" character builds slotted with SO's, etc, etc, the design is for this group of average players to run on the base difficulty setting in a group of relatively close level range(this includes sk's)
In order for a team to effectively run above this average, something has to change. it could be one or several of many things:
-Player skill increases.
-Character build is optimized, IO'd out etc.
-High level character exemps down(this used to be more effective then it is now, IMO)
- and of course, the AT makeup of the team is tweaked or adjusted.
The first one can make a much larger difference then is usually accounted for, because the effect is subtle.
The second is pretty obvious. For instance, I have a kat/SR scrapper with retarded rech bonus who can basically chain the tier 8 and 9 attacks back to back. If i handed that character off to even a "n00b sk1llz" fresh to the game player, that player will perform at a level higher then "average" on merit of the character build.
More to your post, the last one is harder to nail down. Much of it depends on the group dynamics of player skill and character build, and also what foes you face when it comes to which AT or powerset makes the biggest difference. Empathy healers tend to be common because healing is easy to use and player skill isnt as much a factor compared to say, storm defenders. thus, when a team is faced with to high a challenge, something needs to be adjusted. PLayer skill isnt exactly easy to upgrade..... "lvl 40ish team looking for highly skilled players!"....not likely to succeed. similar with character builds, teams cant just switch on uber IO mode as needed.
So, it really comes down to AT and powersets because those are the most easily altered attributes of a team. When it comes to difficulty, a well led team will adjust difficulty after it is shown the team is capable of it. A poorly led one will try to adjust the team after it finds out "the hard way" that they have jumped in head first into a whuppin. I have seen this repeatedly, I think anyone thats played for a while on this game has seen it too. You join the team, go in the mission, and its obvious you are going to struggle. but the team tries anyway, gets sent to the hospitol, and then everyone stands around while the leader tries to recruit that "key member that lets us win", which is usually that tank or healer, because thats the easiest.
Flip side, you join a team, steam roll the mobs like no one's buisness because your IO tweaked highly skilled /dark defender and fire/mental purpled blaster are just that far above average. next mission, the leader ups the diffy.
One other thing about healer/tank sets- they are reactionary in nature, healing is a reaction to the damage, and while a tank may try to initiate a fight for aggro control, a tank good enough to "make a difference" has to react and work at keeping aggro as the fight unfolds. It should not be a surprise then that the teams reacting to their difficulty being to high are looking for reactionary AT's and sets.
The more potent team, as always, is the one with more skill, better builds, and also importantly, the team that does not rely on heals but on force multiplyers. A reactionary team looking for that granite tank may find one, and thus enable them to complete their "hard" mission, but their success will pale in comparison to the team that ups the difficulty after verifying their team has the proper mix of skill/build/force multiplier to succeed.
So when you look at your team next time, dont just look at it as a group of AT and powersets, look at the whole, look at how it compares to "average" and adjust difficulty accordingly. I think most players agree steamrolling yellows is more fun then repeated hospitol trips trying to beat down a fistfull of purple cons.
Liberty server
Eldagore lvl 50 Inv/ss, co-founder of The Legion of Smash
3.5 servers of alts....I need help.
May the rawk be with you.
Arc #'s
107020 Uberbots!
93496 A Pawn in Time
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The more potent team, as always, is the one with more skill, better builds, and also importantly, the team that does not rely on heals but on force multipliers. A reactionary team looking for that granite tank may find one, and thus enable them to complete their "hard" mission, but their success will pale in comparison to the team that ups the difficulty after verifying their team has the proper mix of skill/build/force multiplier to succeed.
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Shh. Don't share secrets. I got booted from a 54 farm yesterday on my just respec'd and newly io'd dark/fire/pyre tanker ... farm was a granite tank, a fire/ss tank, a plant/kin, and a something/emp with some blasters and scrappers. I think the quote that ticked off the lead (in tells) was, "So, is this how you normally build teams?" Short discussion on makeup then she got angsty and booted me - which I was quite happy with. The build tested the way I thought it would, and the team was sloooooow.
Heals are gimmick powers.
I'll admit if I know I'm gonna be up against a AV or Monster, I look for a Rad- because I need -regen, and Rad is the most well-known set with -regen. Trick Arrow seems to have it too though, so I also look for that.
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I'll admit if I know I'm gonna be up against a AV or Monster, I look for a Rad- because I need -regen, and Rad is the most well-known set with -regen. Trick Arrow seems to have it too though, so I also look for that.
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This kinda kills me. Dark has better -regen than rad. HT is 100% identical to LR, and TG has more on top.
I view Tornado as storm's -regen, but after checking the #'s, 6.67 smashing damage per second (more after FR) probably doesn't kill 93 hp/s AV regen as well as I'd hoped. Still, it rocks. 
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Heals are gimmick powers.
I'll admit if I know I'm gonna be up against a AV or Monster, I look for a Rad- because I need -regen, and Rad is the most well-known set with -regen. Trick Arrow seems to have it too though, so I also look for that.
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Not to knock TA (Hah, puns), but if my memory serves the only power with -regen in it is EMP Arrow. Of course, as a TA player, we have plenty of other options that make -regen wholly unnecessary. Disruption Arrow and Acid Arrow both do -resist, and Acid also does -def. Acid is perma out of the box, and with 3 basic IO recharge so is Disruption (not quite perma -- the animation causes a small inconsequential gap). A burning Oil Slick is very nice additional damage as well. EMP Arrow can be used for the heck of it, really, and it doesn't really hurt.
Main Hero : Annilixxion -- Lv50 Blaster
Main Villain : Menkaura -- Lv41 Mastermind
@Laxx
"You will bend to my will, with or without your precious sanity." --Dragon Mage
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Edit: Note to devs: You really [censored] up on RSF, didn't you? Said, by the way, by someone who has completed it many times with many ATs.
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So have I. One of the most memorable was with 3 brutes, 3 widow/fort's, a dom (not perma mind) and a (i think) fire/cold corr. We woud have got master too, if BABs hadnt landed 2 lucky hits in a row on the /fire brute.
I've also done the last fight (Pre Master badge) without anyone taking a death with the /stone brute teleporting into the middle of the heroes.
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Oh, well, good to know it's [censored] based on luck rather than skill.
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No idea what you're complaining about now. The only "luck" in either of his examples was BaB ruining what was probably not even a Master attempt by getting in two hits back to back. Defense is finicky like that.
Main Hero : Annilixxion -- Lv50 Blaster
Main Villain : Menkaura -- Lv41 Mastermind
@Laxx
"You will bend to my will, with or without your precious sanity." --Dragon Mage
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This kinda kills me. Dark has better -regen than rad. HT is 100% identical to LR, and TG has more on top.
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Except Howling Twilight's -regen has a 30 second duration on a 180 second recharge power, whereas LR's a 30 second duration on a 90 second recharge. Twilight Grasp looks like only -50% regen in PvE, too, which is, what, a -7.5% regen versus an even AV at level 50? (Somebody correct me if I'm wrong. I often suck at interpreting City of Data.) Although between you and Fluffy, it's probably possible to stack that sucker half a dozen deep if you really want.
Having Vengeance and Fallout slotted for recharge means never having to say you're sorry.
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This kinda kills me. Dark has better -regen than rad. HT is 100% identical to LR, and TG has more on top.
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Except Howling Twilight's -regen has a 30 second duration on a 180 second recharge power, whereas LR's a 30 second duration on a 90 second recharge. Twilight Grasp looks like only -50% regen in PvE, too, which is, what, a -7.5% regen versus an even AV at level 50? (Somebody correct me if I'm wrong. I often suck at interpreting City of Data.) Although between you and Fluffy, it's probably possible to stack that sucker half a dozen deep if you really want.
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True on the recharge times, yet I haven't run into an AV where this has been an issue. I also usually have it down around 45s downtime from hasten and random AM/SB. Valid points, tho. Still, the "we need a rad" thing keeelz me.
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Edit: Note to devs: You really [censored] up on RSF, didn't you? Said, by the way, by someone who has completed it many times with many ATs.
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So have I. One of the most memorable was with 3 brutes, 3 widow/fort's, a dom (not perma mind) and a (i think) fire/cold corr. We woud have got master too, if BABs hadnt landed 2 lucky hits in a row on the /fire brute.
I've also done the last fight (Pre Master badge) without anyone taking a death with the /stone brute teleporting into the middle of the heroes.
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Oh, well, good to know it's [censored] based on luck rather than skill.
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No idea what you're complaining about now. The only "luck" in either of his examples was BaB ruining what was probably not even a Master attempt by getting in two hits back to back. Defense is finicky like that.
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Funny, I wasn't aware /Fire was a defense based set. Wouldn't call it "lucky".
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Edit: Note to devs: You really [censored] up on RSF, didn't you? Said, by the way, by someone who has completed it many times with many ATs.
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So have I. One of the most memorable was with 3 brutes, 3 widow/fort's, a dom (not perma mind) and a (i think) fire/cold corr. We woud have got master too, if BABs hadnt landed 2 lucky hits in a row on the /fire brute.
I've also done the last fight (Pre Master badge) without anyone taking a death with the /stone brute teleporting into the middle of the heroes.
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Oh, well, good to know it's [censored] based on luck rather than skill.
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No idea what you're complaining about now. The only "luck" in either of his examples was BaB ruining what was probably not even a Master attempt by getting in two hits back to back. Defense is finicky like that.
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Funny, I wasn't aware /Fire was a defense based set. Wouldn't call it "lucky".
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Funny, I wasn't aware that /Cold Corruptors didn't have access to +defense shields.
Guess we learn something new every day, eh?
Main Hero : Annilixxion -- Lv50 Blaster
Main Villain : Menkaura -- Lv41 Mastermind
@Laxx
"You will bend to my will, with or without your precious sanity." --Dragon Mage
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Edit: Note to devs: You really [censored] up on RSF, didn't you? Said, by the way, by someone who has completed it many times with many ATs.
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So have I. One of the most memorable was with 3 brutes, 3 widow/fort's, a dom (not perma mind) and a (i think) fire/cold corr. We woud have got master too, if BABs hadnt landed 2 lucky hits in a row on the /fire brute.
I've also done the last fight (Pre Master badge) without anyone taking a death with the /stone brute teleporting into the middle of the heroes.
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Oh, well, good to know it's [censored] based on luck rather than skill.
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No idea what you're complaining about now. The only "luck" in either of his examples was BaB ruining what was probably not even a Master attempt by getting in two hits back to back. Defense is finicky like that.
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Funny, I wasn't aware /Fire was a defense based set. Wouldn't call it "lucky".
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Funny, I wasn't aware that /Cold Corruptors didn't have access to +defense shields.
Guess we learn something new every day, eh?
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Not to mention 3 forts/widows who likely (if he's calling it luck that two hits landed in a row) had TT:Maneuvers and Mind Link stacking up. You'd not even need all 3 fort/widows to have taken both powers - about a 50% uptake would be sufficient to cap team defense combined with Cold shields.
While in a team earlier tonight I realized that the desirability of certain Powersets and even certain ATs can wax and wane with the difficulty of the enemy. I felt it odd that I never realized this before.
Tanks can be a wonderful thing to keep the attention off of the squishies and tie up the enemy. But on a mission where most of the enemies con white or less the AT becomes less desirable because the threat from the enemy is less and more damage or control might do the job just as well or better.
The same thing goes for Empathy. Many teams STILL cry for a 'healer' from time to time but when the enemy is relatively weak there is less need for team buffs and more control or damage might be just as good or better.
Some Powersets, like Kinetics, are always desired because they bring a lot of utility to the team in any circumstance. Between the AoE Heal, the Transference, Fulcrum Shift and the ever-popular Speed Boost Kin is just a handy set to have around. In tough fights this is even more apparent where the damage buff from FS can mean the difference between victory and defeat.
Players who are struggling with some ATs or Powersets finding teams might want to consider forming their own and raising the Difficulty a notch or two. The guy who says the team can live without Bubbles or healing or whatever might change his tune when the enemy is all red con to him and his Health Bar is at 20% and falling...
"Comics, you're not a Mastermind...you're an Overlord!"