Ugh! Newbs these days.

[ QUOTE ]
I suppose I keep forgetting how most other MMOs are structured. I mean, not literally forgetting, but ignoring the mentality they create. For some reason, my brain always makes the connection that "new player" = "new to MMOs," which isn't actually always the case. I remember a time when we here on the forums could get together and pat each other on the back that "Ho ho ho! This was my first MMO!" I mean I'm in that boat - I hated MMOs as a concept before I bought City of Heroes never expecting to play more than a month - which is why I guess it colours my perception. I'm not sure many players remain for whom City of Heroes was a new and exciting experience, as opposed to yet another MMO.

Still, I wish we could spread the message around to new people that it's generally better to go through the low levels "proper" AT LEAST once before you start rushing for the top. Unlike most of us here with 50+ months of game time, we shouldn't expect that new players would be bored of "the low level grind" and want to get to 22 and Stamina and SOs as fast as they can, or to 50 and the "end game" or whatever. And I'm not just talking about farming or powerlevelling or even power gaming. Just the notion that one must level as fast as possible because THAT is what the game is about.

Personally, to end on a weird note, to me levelling up is like earning money: sure, it's very satisfying it earn a lot of it really fast, but money is only worth as much as the things you buy with it, and sometimes cashing in your levels to play a cool low- or mid-level piece of content is more entertaining than still more levels to no practical end before THE end, ESPECIALLY to a player who hasn't played it before. I'm looking at 60 months, and I still giggle like a little girl when I find something I haven't played before. It could be the Kheldian arcs, it could be a newly redone AT (currently experiencing Dominators for the first time) or just some unlockable contact I never got around to.

[/ QUOTE ]

You know Im ussually a great defende rof powerleveling, but I actually agree with you - its worth running through the content of anygame at least once. At least it is to me because Im a roleplayer and a sucker for lore and background, and I like a good story.

Still, there are some people who don't care about ANY of that - to whom a roleplaying game is nothing more than a highly particular tactical and strategic excercise. And you know what? Who don't want to play through the story even once because it couldn't possibly matter to them. Thats a perfectly legitimate position. Whatever's fun for them, after-all.

But like you I do sometimes worry about players who have expectations of a more serious endgame than City of Heroes can provide and are in for a disapointment when they rush past content to reach it.

---

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Actually Epic Architypes are fullfilling precisly the roel they were designed for - substitute End-game content.

People (like me) who LIKE a serious endgame often complained back int he day that the problem with CoH is that once you got to 50 there was nothing left to do there. Some of us liked our characters and like finally having all the tools we had worked for and didn't want to create six-hundred alts, and were none-too-pleased with the idea of a game who's end-game was to start over. The developers responded to allowing you to start over... but in a different way! Providing a small amount of aditional content, and an extremely different play experiecne, that you could only get if you had made it to level 50, but doing it not through aditional unique content, but through an additional, unique class. I would have preferd more interesting raids and task-forces myself, but even jaded powergamer that I am I have to admit Kheldians are pretty cool, and do represent a meaningful reward for getting to 50. They may not have done it in the wya I'd have prefered, but they did pretty much give us what we asked for.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're a weirdo, and definitely do not represent the typical CoH player.

[/ QUOTE ]

That much is correct - the majority of active accounts do not include a level 50 character (or at least they didn't about a year ago - or os the developers told us; its possible that its changed in the itnervening time as more attention is focused on the end-game and leveling becomes easier). There IS a definate sizable minority, however, who DO agree with me - as the testimonies on this thread shoulod indicate. This is purely subjective observation, but the community also seems to be increasingly moving in tht direction.

All told though, you're quite right, CoH is not the game for me. I dislike almost everything about how its structured. But I love roleplaying a superherop, and at least for another 61 days, 11 hours, and 38 minutes City of Heroes is the only game in town.

EDIT: Also, the mission architect system is pretty freakin awesome. If I have to choose (and for now, I do) I still prefer a more sandbox type game like UO or Eve, or MXO wher eyou make your own fun in a mor direct sense, but MA is a unique and powerful storytelling tool and one that I can only hope other games will copy.

---

AE Farming, Redside:

So I get invited to a boss farm redside, except it isn't the traditional fire bosses. It's NRG/Regen bosses. The person leading this farm insists that this is teh bestest mish evah.

(I'm only on this map because a friend on the team asked for my help, and honestly, my elec brute's good S/L/E resists might actually make it work)

The result was horrific. I failed to remember all the stuns energy melee has and my brute was quickly taken out. It was at this point that I had a new idea: stun the stunners with my earth/psi dom.

So in teamchat, I let them know I'm switching toons, to my dom. I switch, work up to dom with my snipe, hit stalagmites, immob, and fire PSW, drain psyche, PSW, and...faceplant.

About this time another player announces in teamchat that they are getting their rad corr. The leader then asks why everyone is quitting the mission. (facepalm)

I eat a bunch of insps and rez. Take two. Same results. At this point, I'm livid. Why aren't my stuns working on these guys? I ask in chat what the secondary was, and the leader responded, "Regen".

So for those that enjoy watching absurdity in AE, hunt for that mission. I'm sure those lowbie AE teams will thank you for it.

---

[ QUOTE ]
Got on my level 7 dominator in mercy and /b'd for a team. Got invited by someone who seemed somewhat clueless. Said we were gonna do AE. She invited other people of varying lowbie levels. The highest was 15, everyone else was <10.

We go into the mish set and it's a totally normal mission, but the levels are off. Leader says she selected the wrong mission. Ok, all out, quit, reform, new mish.

Outdoor city map, level 51 LT farm... ugh I was ready to quit right then and there but I figured I would see how it went.

As I predicted we pulled about half the first spawn, barely survived them, and somehow aggroed the rest of them, who proceeded to kill us. I commented that we were too low to handle a level 51 all LT spawn and was promptly kicked from the team.

Honestly I planned on quitting it anyway, but out of curiosity I asked the leader why. "bcuz" I was bringing the team down and they could do it as long as they pulled.

My response was "Sure, you probably could clear that map, pulling 2-3 guys at a time, slogging through it slowly. Or we can do missions we are actually capable of handling, blow through them 5x as fast, and gain way more XP over time. But that's just my 42 months of experience playing this game talking."

No response...

Newbs these days...

Maybe I should just set up a lawn chair at the front porch of the AE building and shake my cane at everyone who walks by and try to rope them into stories about "the good old days..."

[/ QUOTE ]

The good old days when newbs were just as retarded just with less options for looking retarded?

Idiots have always been idiots. AE didnt change anything.

---

Want comedy and lighthearted action? Between levels 1-14? Try Nuclear in 90 - The Fusionette Task Force!

Arc ID 58363!

[ QUOTE ]

I am hoping that these newbies will learn soon that it doens't matter if the team IS exemped up to level 50 or whatever, if you have two attacks you are not all that much good, and you are no match for a level 50+ NPC. The only person to blame for that is the greedy one looking [general] you in the mirror. And these kids are greedy like nobody's business.

[/ QUOTE ]
The whole story made me LOL, especially your description at the end. hahahahahaha

My new belief: AE doesn't make sucky players, it just lets them refine their suckiness.

---

Arc ID#30821, A Clean Break

The only problem with defeating the Tsoo is that an hour later, you want to defeat them again!
"Life is just better boosted!" -- LadyMage
"I'm a big believer in Personal Force Field on a blaster. ... It's your happy place." -- Fulmens

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I am hoping that these newbies will learn soon that it doens't matter if the team IS exemped up to level 50 or whatever, if you have two attacks you are not all that much good, and you are no match for a level 50+ NPC. The only person to blame for that is the greedy one looking [general] you in the mirror. And these kids are greedy like nobody's business.

[/ QUOTE ]
The whole story made me LOL, especially your description at the end. hahahahahaha

My new belief: AE doesn't make sucky players, it just lets them refine their suckiness.

[/ QUOTE ]

i wouldn't say refine but definitely exemplifies it. Refining implies some sort of skill set through practice or experience. I wouldn't give them that much credit.

---

Doc Mech-Nec (Exalted): 50 Bots/FF MM
Crey Radiation Tank (Exalted): 50 Rad/Rad Corr
Servers: Exalted, Triumph, Champion
Alts: 32
Steam Profile

[ QUOTE ]
It's odd, though, at least from my perspective. I expect a veteran to want to level fast. After all, I'm traditional slow levelling's biggest proponent and even I can appreciate levelling fast now that I've done it all.

But what would possess a new player, one who hasn't seen anything from the the game, to want to level faster and faster? Doesn't it make sense to see the game and get a feel for it before you shoot for the end? I can only speak for myself, but I only look to level faster when I run out of interesting things to do and need that next level to get more. This shouldn't be a factor for a new player until at LEAST level 10, possibly until level 20. I remember back in the old days when I first got to level 20 and realised that ZOMG! It will take me all day to get a single level! This is horrible! THEN I might see someone look to level faster. But before that?

[/ QUOTE ]
My sentiments EXACTLY. I think the ability to use AE should be a 2 or 3 month veteran reward.

But then what would we have to laugh about in the forum here. Bad's story was priceless! I may roll a new toon tonight just to get on one of these teams and get a good laugh.

---

Arc ID#30821, A Clean Break

The only problem with defeating the Tsoo is that an hour later, you want to defeat them again!
"Life is just better boosted!" -- LadyMage
"I'm a big believer in Personal Force Field on a blaster. ... It's your happy place." -- Fulmens

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's odd, though, at least from my perspective. I expect a veteran to want to level fast. After all, I'm traditional slow levelling's biggest proponent and even I can appreciate levelling fast now that I've done it all.

But what would possess a new player, one who hasn't seen anything from the the game, to want to level faster and faster? Doesn't it make sense to see the game and get a feel for it before you shoot for the end? I can only speak for myself, but I only look to level faster when I run out of interesting things to do and need that next level to get more. This shouldn't be a factor for a new player until at LEAST level 10, possibly until level 20. I remember back in the old days when I first got to level 20 and realised that ZOMG! It will take me all day to get a single level! This is horrible! THEN I might see someone look to level faster. But before that?

[/ QUOTE ]
My sentiments EXACTLY. I think the ability to use AE should be a 2 or 3 month veteran reward.

But then what would we have to laugh about in the forum here. Bad's story was priceless! I may roll a new toon tonight just to get on one of these teams and get a good laugh.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is actually a great idea, but they didn't want to isolate the content to a given population from what I gather. Instead of newbies running MA you'd just have overzealous Powerlevellers trying to get as many 50s as possible. It wouldn't really solve the problem the devs are trying to thwart.

---

Doc Mech-Nec (Exalted): 50 Bots/FF MM
Crey Radiation Tank (Exalted): 50 Rad/Rad Corr
Servers: Exalted, Triumph, Champion
Alts: 32
Steam Profile

I have a PB and WS I've been slowly working with. Seeing them, I can fully understand why they want a player to have a level 50 character first. Even for a seasoned veteran, the first time you play a Kheld is a challenge. There's all those powers you get and not enough slots to place in all of them. I shudder to think of a true newbie getting PL'd to 50 in a day or two and then trying to roll a Kheld.

As for end-game content.... What I like about CoX is that for the most part, there really isn't much difference between the levels. There's no reason to rush through early content because later content isn't inherently different. Sure you have more powers and there are different villain groups. Even the combat is a bit more strategic in that you have more mezzing enemies. But the core of the game is the same. Teaming is the same, task forces use the same structure, trials have the same structure... it's not like the content is better.

I just mentioned in another thread that after having a less-than-fulfilling time on the Reichsman TF, I found myself in Talos so sent out a broadcast, got on a 20's team, and got exemped down. We had a blast. It's one of the reasons I no longer try to level my toons to 50. I just play them. If I feel like playing a dark defender, I pull out my 50 dark defender. If I feel like being a bubbler, I pull out my 41 bubbler. If I feel like playing my Earth Controller, I pull out my 23 EC...... levels don't really matter to me because the basic dynamics are the same.

---

Arc ID#30821, A Clean Break

The only problem with defeating the Tsoo is that an hour later, you want to defeat them again!
"Life is just better boosted!" -- LadyMage
"I'm a big believer in Personal Force Field on a blaster. ... It's your happy place." -- Fulmens

I tried for over a hour last weekend to get a "normal PUG team" together while playing my level 35 Scrapper, to no avail. After a while, I gave up, and headed to the Atlas Park AE building. I waited a bit to see if I'd get an invite there, and nothing. So I decided to form my own AE team. Within minutes, I had an eight person team. My character was the highest at level 35, and the rest ranged anywhere from level 5 to 24. Hey, I took what I could get.

I set the AE mission, and off we went. We were doing fairly well, with only one death. The guy who started the mission at level 5 said after we were about half way through, "This mission sucks. These guys are only level 46, with few bosses. I did a cool mission yesterday that got my Controller from 14 to 23 in one go. Let's give that a try." I figured he meant a level 54 all boss mission, and with my being level 35 and everyone else being in their 20s or lower, I thought that'd be a bad idea. "Nah, we're doing okay."

"Dude, I'm getting lousy xp! We'd do much better with the other mission."

I checked his veteran badges. None. Figures. "We'd probably also get great debt."

"Nah dude, I did it yesterday and gained nine levels!"

Another teammate spoke up, also with no veteran badges:

"He's right. This mission is lame. I've only gotten one level so far. Let's give his a try."

Then they both quit, leaving six. Within a minute, there was only myself and one other left. We did okay for the next group, but it was obvious we wouldn't be able to finish the mission. I thanked the other person for staying, and then left.

It's like the newbies have been conditioned to thinking now that any missions other than those with level 50+ bosses is "lame."

---

@Celestial Lord and @Celestial Lord Too

I get maybe a lvl a day at 46. Maybe a level every couple hours on lowbies. 9 in a day seems excessive to me by any standards.

---

Doc Mech-Nec (Exalted): 50 Bots/FF MM
Crey Radiation Tank (Exalted): 50 Rad/Rad Corr
Servers: Exalted, Triumph, Champion
Alts: 32
Steam Profile

HelinCarnate wrote:

[ QUOTE ]
Sometimes I wish you could view missions in the AE like in arena matches. I would spend hours just watching stupid people and laughing.

[/ QUOTE ]

The Super Viewer Booster Pack would sell out so quickly that Paragon Studios would go offline from the network stress of everyone checking Ferrari colors and options.

--NT

---

They all laughed at me when I said I wanted to be a comedian.
But I showed them, and nobody's laughing at me now!

If I became a red name, I would be all "and what would you mere mortals like to entertain me with today, mu hu ha ha ha!" ~Arcanaville

This entire thread reminds me that you're a newbie for about a week but a n00b for life.

//Jack

---

The Kickers base.

Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others.
-Groucho Marx

[ QUOTE ]
This entire thread reminds me that you're a newbie for about a week but a n00b for life.

//Jack

[/ QUOTE ]

no u!

---

I was a newbie for two weeks but that's just me.

//Jack

---

The Kickers base.

Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others.
-Groucho Marx

I'm convinced that the reason all those people sit around broadcasting "LFT/AE" is that they have no clue about how things work, and just need to tag along with someone who understands how to select missions that fit somewhat with a team's capabilities. I don't think most of them care to learn, either. And it's not just new players.

Example: Recent AE invite for a team from a leader with a 30-something vet badge. The team included four toons in single digits (two tanks and yep, a healer) and some 20s blast/scraps and my 34 bubbler (whose defense contribution was about 42%).

It was the standard city farming map.

Half the fully bubbled (and mez-protected) team went down within a few seconds as the boss critters opened up with a volley of Radiation Infections and some other piled on debuffy stuff. I ate a big purple and skipped to the entrance as the rest of my teammates perished.

Turns out the leader was testing his own AE mission and we were the guinea pigs. I think he had hoped it had farming potential.

Another mission had a /fire scrapper and a fire/ tank and one of them kept insisting on a particular mish #. It was one of those stacked ambush farms, with all fire damage, which is pretty cool if you're a scrapper, but not so much if you're a squishy and the ambushes spawn about 60 critters.

After a near team wipe (the two above found the aggro cap survivable, but the other scrapper did not), the tank said, "I guess the rest of you just hang back." Given this opportunity for seconds of endless fun, I promptly exited said mission.

---

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Got on my level 7 dominator in mercy and /b'd for a team. Got invited by someone who seemed somewhat clueless. Said we were gonna do AE. She invited other people of varying lowbie levels. The highest was 15, everyone else was <10.

We go into the mish set and it's a totally normal mission, but the levels are off. Leader says she selected the wrong mission. Ok, all out, quit, reform, new mish.

Outdoor city map, level 51 LT farm... ugh I was ready to quit right then and there but I figured I would see how it went.

As I predicted we pulled about half the first spawn, barely survived them, and somehow aggroed the rest of them, who proceeded to kill us. I commented that we were too low to handle a level 51 all LT spawn and was promptly kicked from the team.

Honestly I planned on quitting it anyway, but out of curiosity I asked the leader why. "bcuz" I was bringing the team down and they could do it as long as they pulled.

My response was "Sure, you probably could clear that map, pulling 2-3 guys at a time, slogging through it slowly. Or we can do missions we are actually capable of handling, blow through them 5x as fast, and gain way more XP over time. But that's just my 42 months of experience playing this game talking."

No response...

Newbs these days...

Maybe I should just set up a lawn chair at the front porch of the AE building and shake my cane at everyone who walks by and try to rope them into stories about "the good old days..."

[/ QUOTE ]

The good old days when newbs were just as retarded just with less options for looking retarded?

Idiots have always been idiots. AE didnt change anything.

[/ QUOTE ]

This.

With all the recent foo-furrah about the MA/AE farming thing, people seem to have forgotten that there were n00bs loooong before the AE/MA.

And, as a matter of fact, I don't actually notice a big difference in the numbers of them either. They just tend to congregate all in the same place now.

---

Brother of Markus

The Lord of Fire and Pain

The Legendary Living Hellfire

Fight my brute!

Were people constantly taking lowbies before they even knew what game content there was and mass PLing them in some other manner?

Being a noob is one thing. It just doesn't seem like this was a problem concerning new people before. Wasn't it mostly just alts of ppl using the PL system?

---

Doc Mech-Nec (Exalted): 50 Bots/FF MM
Crey Radiation Tank (Exalted): 50 Rad/Rad Corr
Servers: Exalted, Triumph, Champion
Alts: 32
Steam Profile

[ QUOTE ]
Were people constantly taking lowbies before they even knew what game content there was and mass PLing them in some other manner?

Being a noob is one thing. It just doesn't seem like this was a problem concerning new people before. Wasn't it mostly just alts of ppl using the PL system?

[/ QUOTE ]
The fact that it was reactivation weekend during the PL frenzy didn't help at all.

---

I think the problem is that it used to be if you wanted to get PL'd, you'd have to go out of your way. You'd have to make your way to Peregrine and convince someone else to PL you. Occasionally, you'd get requests for PLing in the lower zones, but only from people wanting to get a level or two. It was mainly Peregrine, and it wasn't a journey a newbie would accidently make. You had to want it and work for it. AE did made it so that you never have to leave AP. A newb could easily find themselves on an AE team without knowing any better and be level 20 or higher at the end of the day... and still in Atlas Park. Actually, it'd be hard *not* to find a team in AP because broadcast is filled with people looking for members.

---

Arc ID#30821, A Clean Break

The only problem with defeating the Tsoo is that an hour later, you want to defeat them again!
"Life is just better boosted!" -- LadyMage
"I'm a big believer in Personal Force Field on a blaster. ... It's your happy place." -- Fulmens

The last two nights I've ended the evening by joining an AE mission/farm for a half hour to an hour. Just to pick up some tickets for a few bronze recipe rolls.

Tonight I joined a team advertising "35+" mission team. I happened to check the leader before we entered. He was 22. I quickly checked the rest of the team --- MOST of them (well, half or more) were on the lower half of the level scale, a couple in their teens. This, I thought, is a level 35+ mission team? Nice how you invited a few higher levels to more or less PL you that way....

Anyway we had a level 46 stone tank, and I'm on my 50 scrapper. I knew the tank wasn't in any danger and I knew I could stay alive and whittle stuff down. There was another scrapper I think in his 30's. What everyone else on the team did wasn't really my concern.

And... it wasn't a bad team, but the blaster and trollers kept pulling aggro every other spawn or so and dying. Leader told the tank to pull just a few if there were more than the aggro cap... I wanted to say, "Or you could wait for him to gain aggro before tossing out your AoE's" but I figure some of these lessons you just have to learn the hard way.

Halfway through the tanker dinged and right after that had to leave. I had what I came for, so I left too. End of the ride, I guess!

---

my lil RWZ Challenge vid

QR:

Had my level 50 Defender out to play in MA. Got on a team only to discover I was the lone 50 amongst a sea of <level 15s. I politely explained why that was not going to work, and dropped team. Shortly thereafter I was on a 45+ team and felt a lot better about it.

Evidently the first team dissolved when I left, and the level 8 Tank began to ask me to get him on my team as I was standing around waiting for the leader to set mission....pah-leeeease would I get him on my team!

me: Dude, we're full. I'm sorry. This is a level 50 team anyways. [and this was true]

8Tank [not his real name]: But I need a team man!

me: Why don't you go level up a bit, then get on a lowbie farm? every level you gain makes you more desireable as a team member, go get you some levels man

8Tank: LOL wow I don't believe your attitude. Man. Takes the cake.

me: You need shields to be effective as a Tank. Why not go get some? Go over to KR, plenty of teams there. You will level plenty fast.

8Tank: l8tr, stuck-up.

Thankfully the mish was then up and I escaped. These people make me want to /headdesk repeatedly. It is MA OR THE HIGHWAY there is no other way to level now, these people are so freakin' clueless it scares me.

---

I want to take every chance I get to agree with Bad, because this is pretty much what bothers me the most. I'm not sure where new players are getting this attitude - I'm not saying it's from the Architect, from Veterans or whether they come in with it, but the idea that they should be taken on a team because they NEED one even if they can't provide anything to it, and that they should FARM for levels on said team, rather than play the damb game really bothers me.

Reducing the game to farming, grinding and a spreadsheet of numbers is something, that, regrettably, happens to any game after you play it long enough for the lustre, but it should NOT be the default starting point for new players right as they join. Claiming that someone is stuck-up for suggesting another player find teams his own level and level up so he can HELP, rather than powerlevelling him like the world is in his debt is just appalling.

---

[ QUOTE ]
I want to take every chance I get to agree with Bad, because this is pretty much what bothers me the most. I'm not sure where new players are getting this attitude - I'm not saying it's from the Architect, from Veterans or whether they come in with it, but the idea that they should be taken on a team because they NEED one even if they can't provide anything to it, and that they should FARM for levels on said team, rather than play the damb game really bothers me.

Reducing the game to farming, grinding and a spreadsheet of numbers is something, that, regrettably, happens to any game after you play it long enough for the lustre, but it should NOT be the default starting point for new players right as they join. Claiming that someone is stuck-up for suggesting another player find teams his own level and level up so he can HELP, rather than powerlevelling him like the world is in his debt is just appalling.

[/ QUOTE ]

A partial solution to this, in my opinion, is to remove AE buildings from lowbie zones. This eliminate most of the farm spam in broadcast, this will allow the newbies to enter the game in the traditional way, doing official content and getting real teams. They can then learn the game is FUN so when they finally get to a zone with an AE, they won't feel so inclined to farm it right away all the time.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Oh, of course, it's not the newbie's fault, it's the jaded vet's fault for encouraging that behaviour rather than dissuading it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yup I love nothing better than standing in Atlas Park telling those new people to farm because it is fun. Only reason I still pay my subscription fee, I just love this feature of the game. I sit on my Fire/Kin and tell them it is the only way to get all the good stuff.

Yup...

All of us vet players' faults... That's all we do...

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd just like to reply to this, I specifically mentioned "jaded" vets, I specifically did not say all vets. Considering I got my 60 month badge yesterday, it would be rather odd for me to claim that all Vets are luring newbies down the road of farming.

---

[ QUOTE ]
A partial solution to this, in my opinion, is to remove AE buildings from lowbie zones. This eliminate most of the farm spam in broadcast, this will allow the newbies to enter the game in the traditional way, doing official content and getting real teams. They can then learn the game is FUN so when they finally get to a zone with an AE, they won't feel so inclined to farm it right away all the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can already picture the combined community shrieking at such a change like a thousand scorned banshees, but yes, I agree with this. Architect in newbie zones is a mistake, in my opinion. For those that must REALLY have access to the Architect as early as level 1, it's an easy trip even CoV-side, and its omnipresence as "the thing to do" would decrease significantly in the eyes of truly new players.

---