Generic 'Risk' and Rewards Musings
By
Archantos,
Posted on: 2009-06-29 14:51 in The Market and Inventions
I'd say the PvE is more satisfying because as you note, the rewards are much more diverse.
Even though both activities are the "same", there's a greater sense of accomplishment in PvE.
I've often wondered why I still make DA runs. Why do I have a character built for that level range and Oro-parked in Moth Cemetary? I've long since passed the point where the inf is a draw. Recipe & salvage farming can be done much more efficiently in MA. I'm not levelling or working on badges (well, the inf badge I guess...but it's not a motivating factor).
There's just something I really like about cruising through the fog in an empty (99% of the time) zone blowing up big spawns of zombies. I can't define the reasons, but it calls to me.
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I don't think it's a matter of risk and reward. I think it's a matter of fun vs boring. Killing something that fights back (however futile the attempt), moving around to different areas, using different skills based on the situation, etc etc VS standing in one spot spamming certain skills or even just standing there while pets do all the work. Obviously playing the game the way it was meant to be played is more entertaining.
Sure, you're at no risk of dying either way, but one is more engaging and distracting and the other is repetitive and boring. For some people, the reward is more than just the drops, for others it's measured purely in inf/prestige/salvage/recipes/etc.
Plus, with PvE you can challenge yourself in various ways even if the mobs are unlikely to ever actually defeat you (short of a mapserver disconnect). Seeing how fast you can clear a mission, how many groups you can take on at once, and so forth beats killing a lifeless target any time.
Of course you could always try actual PvP if you want real risk... though sadly the drop rates are so low that if you are doing it for the loot it's pretty pointless.
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I just don't get any sense of risk at all in the game other than wasted time if something doesn't work out. For example unable to complete a task force or some such event.
Death is meaningless in the game.
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
Its the staggered series of different rewards that draws you in, I reckon. Badge progress, recipe drops, salvage drops, coupled with the small psychological buzzes like beating the mission boss or taking on multiple groups at once.
I first became aware of this pattern playing Diablo II - you were always ten minutes from the next levelup or the next waypoint or felt like something really cool might drop. That complicated pattern of rewards is much more enticing than one big drop very infrequently, and used to keep me up till the small hours.
In CoH these days its similar - each character I have will have a number of goals of different types - badges, IO sets, level up to get a cool power or finish a set, some marketeering goal maybe so they can afford a particular item. Just enough complexity so you can sometimes level up or get a badge by surprise because your mind was on another goal.
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Its the staggered series of different rewards that draws you in, I reckon. Badge progress, recipe drops, salvage drops, coupled with the small psychological buzzes like beating the mission boss or taking on multiple groups at once.
I first became aware of this pattern playing Diablo II - you were always ten minutes from the next levelup or the next waypoint or felt like something really cool might drop. That complicated pattern of rewards is much more enticing than one big drop very infrequently, and used to keep me up till the small hours.
In CoH these days its similar - each character I have will have a number of goals of different types - badges, IO sets, level up to get a cool power or finish a set, some marketeering goal maybe so they can afford a particular item. Just enough complexity so you can sometimes level up or get a badge by surprise because your mind was on another goal.
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Absolutely hear you on the Diablo II style incremental rewards enticement. I believe some research was even done suggesting the small, repeated, release of endorphins made it even more addictive than it would seem on the surface.
great post Dr. Mike.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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great post Dr. Mike.
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Indeed. It must be the little things that are basically 'certain' that keep me going.
Getting the next inf badge say is a long long way off, but I do feel accomplished working towards that goal. Getting a PVP Io drop (when not bugged) would be much much short term, but is a) uncertain, and b) you aren't really getting other rewards when doing so.
As I said in the other threa I was in awe at Snappin's tenacity and stamina for his running his arena farms. I'll happily admit I must be just wired differently and accept I 'need' the staedy trickle of small stuff whilst working on a big payoff.
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
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Its the staggered series of different rewards that draws you in, I reckon. Badge progress, recipe drops, salvage drops, coupled with the small psychological buzzes like beating the mission boss or taking on multiple groups at once.
I first became aware of this pattern playing Diablo II - you were always ten minutes from the next levelup or the next waypoint or felt like something really cool might drop. That complicated pattern of rewards is much more enticing than one big drop very infrequently, and used to keep me up till the small hours.
In CoH these days its similar - each character I have will have a number of goals of different types - badges, IO sets, level up to get a cool power or finish a set, some marketeering goal maybe so they can afford a particular item. Just enough complexity so you can sometimes level up or get a badge by surprise because your mind was on another goal.
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Absolutely hear you on the Diablo II style incremental rewards enticement. I believe some research was even done suggesting the small, repeated, release of endorphins made it even more addictive than it would seem on the surface.
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Uh...theres been tons of studies done on that. Its called Classical and operant conditioning. Sort of basic psychology concepts. Also why slot machines are so ridiculously addictive to the right sort of person. 
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I've often wondered why I still make DA runs. Why do I have a character built for that level range and Oro-parked in Moth Cemetary? I've long since passed the point where the inf is a draw. Recipe & salvage farming can be done much more efficiently in MA. I'm not levelling or working on badges (well, the inf badge I guess...but it's not a motivating factor).
There's just something I really like about cruising through the fog in an empty (99% of the time) zone blowing up big spawns of zombies. I can't define the reasons, but it calls to me.
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Man I can completely relate to this. I started doing DA runs right about the time you started posting about them (I actually remember being convinced you were going to kill the prices on rare arcane salvage).
I ran a Numina the other day and drew the DA hunt. It was the first time I'd been in DA since being back from a hiatus that started around i11. It was weird how much I enjoyed being in that dark, empty zone and beating on silly gray zombies.
I may have to build up another fire/fire tank (or maybe a fire/fire scrap now that they're available) just to park in DA for a few runs every once in a while. 
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Its the staggered series of different rewards that draws you in, I reckon. Badge progress, recipe drops, salvage drops, coupled with the small psychological buzzes like beating the mission boss or taking on multiple groups at once.
I first became aware of this pattern playing Diablo II - you were always ten minutes from the next levelup or the next waypoint or felt like something really cool might drop. That complicated pattern of rewards is much more enticing than one big drop very infrequently, and used to keep me up till the small hours.
In CoH these days its similar - each character I have will have a number of goals of different types - badges, IO sets, level up to get a cool power or finish a set, some marketeering goal maybe so they can afford a particular item. Just enough complexity so you can sometimes level up or get a badge by surprise because your mind was on another goal.
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Absolutely hear you on the Diablo II style incremental rewards enticement. I believe some research was even done suggesting the small, repeated, release of endorphins made it even more addictive than it would seem on the surface.
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Uh...theres been tons of studies done on that. Its called Classical and operant conditioning. Sort of basic psychology concepts. Also why slot machines are so ridiculously addictive to the right sort of person.
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Oddly, while such baiting works perfectly on me for my computer games, I find real-money gambling so unsatisfying that I have yet to spend more the $20 on it at any given time, and typically go months or years between gambling sessions.
RagManX
"if the market were religion Fulmens would be Moses and you'd be L. Ron Hubbard. " --Nethergoat to eryq2
The economy is not broken. The players are
Funny, I have a different experience with PvP entirely. I find my adrenalin levels much, much higher in PvP zones than elsewhere. I find PvP enjoyable to the point that it doesn't bother me that 1) I am astoundingly bad at it, and 2) because of point 1 I will generally have nothing at all to show for my time in the PvP zone (except for PvP time badge progress).
So, although I dislike playing my 50s and I dislike exemping because I like XP, I'm quite happy to forgo XP during PvP.
That said, I don't PvP that often because I usually play CoH to chill out, not to rev up.
I think it's years of conditioning that makes me prefer PVE. I've been "playing against the computer" for many years. It feels comfortable in a way that playing against another player with the computer as "mediator" never will, at least to me.
Moreover, I don't think the reward system enters into it. I believe that mowing down huge numbers of BP in DA is intrinsically fun, even without rewards. As a thought experiment, make DA more like an arena farm. Imagine that, instead of huge, varied groups, it's just one Shaman who makes no attempt to fight back or escape while you kill him over and over.
I think Space Goat is onto something. I'm not so sure it is the constant trickle of rewards, as much as it is that when travelling around DA slaughtering mobs you're actually doing something. As opposed to "fighting" a dual-boxed arena duel with yourself.
Think about this ... For the same money ... Would you rather have a job where you sit in an empty office with no windows and just have to push a single button on the desk when it glows red ... or ... a job where you walked around the building picking up mail from designated mail drop locations?
Neither one is very challenging, but I'd be willing to bet you'd feel happier at the end of the day as a mail clerk than you would a button pusher.
Excellent analogy there. It pretty obvious that the walking round, however mundane is goign to be more interesting than beign sat in a blank office all day.
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
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Think about this ... For the same money ... Would you rather have a job where you sit in an empty office with no windows and just have to push a single button on the desk when it glows red ... or ... a job where you walked around the building picking up mail from designated mail drop locations?
Neither one is very challenging, but I'd be willing to bet you'd feel happier at the end of the day as a mail clerk than you would a button pusher.
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I vote for "Button pusher"
You could always get "that bird" from the Simpsons to push the button for you while you do something else! :P
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Using "birds" is against company policy. 
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I vote for "Button pusher"
You could always get "that bird" from the Simpsons to push the button for you while you do something else! :P
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Are you referring to Albert the Dunking Dunk from high school science class? I'd probably just make a robot with a photoreceptor to make sure ti always gets pushed at the right time.
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Would you rather have a job where you sit in an empty office with no windows and just have to push a single button on the desk when it glows red ... or ... a job where you walked around the building picking up mail from designated mail drop locations?
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PUSH THE BUTTON! PUSH IT! PUSH IT! PUSH IT NOW!
How about a TV series where someone sits in a bunker and pushes a button. No-one would ever watch THAT would they ?
Even if they spruced it up with like a plane crash or something.
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
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How about a TV series where someone sits in a bunker and pushes a button. No-one would ever watch THAT would they ?
Even if they spruced it up with like a plane crash or something.
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Really - we have so many people playing a game involving even less than that - I'm sure *someone* would watch that show.
RagManX
"if the market were religion Fulmens would be Moses and you'd be L. Ron Hubbard. " --Nethergoat to eryq2
The economy is not broken. The players are
Any game involving Kobold bits and Porn Elemental lube can't be THAT boring 
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How about a TV series where someone sits in a bunker and pushes a button. No-one would ever watch THAT would they ?
Even if they spruced it up with like a plane crash or something.
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...depends on what that button does....
I've been rich, and I've been poor. Rich is definitely better.
Light is faster than sound - that's why some people look smart until they speak.
For every seller who leaves the market dirty stinkin' rich,
there's a buyer who leaves the market dirty stinkin' IOed. - Obitus.
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How about a TV series where someone sits in a bunker and pushes a button. No-one would ever watch THAT would they ?
Even if they spruced it up with like a plane crash or something.
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There was a movie
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0076845/
I was musing over this late yesterday, but with the PVP IO change it gets pushed a little further forward in my mind.
The situation, early Saturday yeah I ran a 30 min arena match and yay me got a PVP IO drop, however the whole process bored me nearly to tears, and its not something that I would do again.
Later on Saturday I was running some Shadow Shard Missions on Cat solo, as I occasionally do. Sure it gets repetitive after a bit, but I mix up the flavours of them as I have all the contacts with a 'full bar'. I don't do it for too long in one burst, and generally find it fun. All told with swapping over during the 10 mins coutndown I was just shy of 50 kills, so I know I am well ahead of the curve defeats/IO wise.
Those missions are basically about as 'risky' to me, as I was at risk of being defeated by the 2nd account in the arena ie non.e. Over the weekend I must have run 30 or so of them, and dipped into the red maybe 5 or 6 times all told, and yes this is on high difficulty slider settings.
It really was little more than glorified button mashing in either situation, so why did one bore me and the other is something I enjoy ?
The change of scenery ? unlikely
I think it comes down to the little and often rewards in the PVE, knowing that Im making x progress on the inf badge and y prestige for the group. See a recipe drop a couple of times per mission, and salvage quite a bit more so.
At that PVP kill rate I should be getting what a drop every hour, maybe 2 on average (assuming things go back to how they were).
Its the same trick lottery companies have been using for ages, a little win here and there keeps the interest. If there was a single winning ticket who won the all the pot each and every week, revenues would plummet, even though on average the 'return' would be identical.
I dunno though, am I crazy for noticing these things ? Why does situation #1 not appeal, and the basically risk free #2 still hold its appeal.
I look forward to some intelligent discourse with you fine folks.
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617