[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I covered most if not all of your points in my long post on page 5, but its still basically more wishful thinking and rationalizing.
Again, I completely realize that farming will never go away, thats not the point. Nor does removing XP in any way shape or form from MA make sense, thats a ridiculous suggestion as well.
But MA will be nerfed, its just a matter of when, how and by how much.
[ QUOTE ]
In essence, "farming is bad for the game" is little more than a myth perpetrated by people who are on the opposite end of the ideology specturm.
[/ QUOTE ]
It has far less perhaps zero to do with ideology than long term sustainability, the chosen business model demands that rewards/time be monitored/restricted, and anything that skews that ratio will be reigned in.
Sometimes with a bat.
[/ QUOTE ]
Except that the devs already are taking steps to reduce exploits. Mobs that give too much xp will be continue to be removed. And reported farms removed, IF the devs see them as farms.
Nothing other than that needs to be done, since REGULAR MA misisons currently give LESS xp than regular ones for one reason: NO MISSION BONUS. Notice I said REGULAR MA misisons.
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't disagree at all, definitely keep XP in MA, nerf the worst farms the rest will take care of itself.
<QR>
The best arcs are farms. Without XP AE has no point. I've yet to see this awesome content that many of you keep going on about.
Infinity and Victory mostly
dUmb, etc.
lolz PvP anymore, Market PvP for fun and profit
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Depends on what you mean by min/max.
*
If a team goes in to fight a group of lvl 54 archvillains and builds the team to do that, I see nothing wrong with that personally.
*
Teaming, debuffs, and buffs have always been used in that way with how this game works. Hell we have a DEV-created TF in which you can FIGHT a team of the strongest AVs and Archheroes all at once. And folks have no issue in building a min/max team to take on THOSE scenarios. In fact at one time those AVs WERE also lvl 54. Many complained when they were toned down because they felt it was reducing challenge from the game.
[/ QUOTE ]
No, this is definitely not the min/max I'm talking about.
[ QUOTE ]
Now if you make a map of lts or minions with no defense that's a different story.
*
Not that I personally care what anyone does. That's the dev's job. Not any players.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yup, that's what I'm against, especially as described so eloquently by Folonius in his AE Farm Guide.
I agree that's the Dev's job to fix this issue, but I care about it being fixed because it is essentially affecting me because if I have to avoid an AE PuG team because all they're doing is going through story-arc after story-arc (or worse, the same story-arc) of one-mission with the same Lt's to be fought, and with no real effort required when fighting... I'm bored and I have to explain why I have to quit the team and go do something else.
I try to be polite, of course, but once I even got a tell asking me what I was still doing in the AE center from someone who lead a farming team I quit moments ago. 
[/ QUOTE ]
Umm, that is why I ALWAYS ASK what we are doing BEFORE I join ANY team.
MA/AE or not.
It's also why I've always advocated folks sending tells before invites, and not just "lft?" or "you want team?"
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
[ QUOTE ]
This is unavoidable, but that doesn't mean the Developers of any MMO should simply stop trying to find ways to allow people to create their own content and at the same time develop counter-measures so that the content isn't exploitable.
[/ QUOTE ]
The cost effectiveness issue comes into play here. In terms of corporate balance sheet, the cost of quality control/compliance/auditing is an expensive proposition. Not only do they need to create software capable of capturing and monitoring such data, they also need a sizable staff to operate the systems and to review the results. That's why a lot of MMOs have shot down the idea of player created content. Imagine the manpower (and the salaries they command) it would take to monitor the thousands of content pieces that are undoubtly submitted each day. The magnitude of that task is unimaginable for a small game development company. This is why PS has opted to let the playerbase do the vast majority of content reporting and monitoring which in itself is a bad idea also. It's like asking the customer base to police themselves with nothing to go on but the honor code. The truth of the matter is that PS has put themselves into an impossible position where either way they go will be a no-win situation for them.
[ QUOTE ]
<QR>
The best arcs are farms. Without XP AE has no point. I've yet to see this awesome content that many of you keep going on about.
[/ QUOTE ]
There are a few (and I do mean a few) highlighted in some of the review threads. Those are usually the 4 or (rare) 5 star ones. And even they are filled with ANNOYING things I'd never do in the REGULAR cannon game: kill alls, (I'm sorry but if the freaking DEVS can have it where I can go in an kill the boss of a mission and his surrounding guards, NO you DO NOT F*^%$#ING NEED to make ANY of your missions a kill all. SORRY! Just a personal pet peeve of mine) 143332323 blinkies in one mission, multiple EBs/AVs on a SOLO mission (often triggered from mission blinkeis, with no prior warning in the mission text), and the favorite: no warning about timed missions.
So I see your point.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
If you nerf the XP out, the players using AE to PL alts will just flock back to GV or PI and go back to selling spots on their TV/BM farms again. Purple recipes might stop climbing up in price, though, with people getting those drops again.
Redside I appreciate MA's Tickets . All the Redside SFs give crummy Merit rewards...when people actually try to run them. The respec trial is the saving grace...no sitting in the TV reactor being bored out of your skull waiting for respawns, wee!
[ QUOTE ]
If you nerf the XP out, the players using AE to PL alts will just flock back to GV or PI and go back to selling spots on their TV/BM farms again. Purple recipes might stop climbing up in price, though, with people getting those drops again.
Redside I appreciate MA's Tickets . All the Redside SFs give crummy Merit rewards...when people actually try to run them. The respec trial is the saving grace...no sitting in the TV reactor being bored out of your skull waiting for respawns, wee!
[/ QUOTE ]
THIS. Despite it's issues, MA tickets have basically saved the redside market.
Prior to that merits just decimated that market. For some IOs redside has STILL not recovered.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
The key to policing stuff is to take baby-steps and offer tighter integration between user-created content and Dev-created content. I hate to say this, but Champions Online, with its Nemesis system seems to offer a saner idea about how to create custom critters that are actually useful, individual and interesting and promote the story of the character they were created for.
It's not that I'm saying Champions Online is better. I am saying that there are ways to limit abuse of content that can be "baked" into the content piece itself.
The real problem is, old engines are not designed for that.
I believe that a Kheldian Gold Standard should be based on SO's, and for anything above that... there's Platinum!
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
[ QUOTE ]
The key to policing stuff is to take baby-steps and offer tighter integration between user-created content and Dev-created content. I hate to say this, but Champions Online, with its Nemesis system seems to offer a saner idea about how to create custom critters that are actually useful, individual and interesting and promote the story of the character they were created for.
It's not that I'm saying Champions Online is better. I am saying that there are ways to limit abuse of content that can be "baked" into the content piece itself.
The real problem is, old engines are not designed for that.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah but the problem with CO's Nemesis system is that it starts when half of your character's career is over.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
From another thread, by Mod8: (The 2nd and 3rd Paragraphs are the relevant parts)
Since this thread has mostly focused on the farming issue I'll go ahead and close it down. I still ask that people discuss farming in the official farming discussion thread as it tends to obscure other conversations.
As to finding teams, I have to say I can understand frustration in that regard. We all occasionally have trouble finding teams, and my advice to you is to be flexible on what to do and use channels effectively. For example, the last several days I have been focusing on my new Dominator since I love the changes and am excited about leveling another dom. However, if I get an invite to an ITF I'll happily log on my brute and run it. If I want to start a team I'll log on the character I want to run and start messaging folks about it. I'll still pay attention to my global channels however and use those as well. I even keep an eye on global channels on other servers to see if there is something going on on another server I want to be a part of.
It sounds like part of this issue is that you are in a transition phase. The super group that you have been a part of has largely become inactive and you no longer have the regular group of players that you are used to. There are two potential solutions to this problem:either find a new super group (or coalition) or take on a leadership role in the super group that you currently find yourself. Go out and recruit new people if you find yourself in a group that is largely inactive or form a SG yourself and coalition with your old SG. Taking pro-active steps is the best way to keep yourself engaged and surrounded with like minded players.
--------------
hmmmm 
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
[ QUOTE ]
Getting rid of exp in MA is not the answer. I personally would like to get rid of or limit PLing all together. One way is to limit SKs to a 10 lvl difference or lower the % of exp income every 10 level difference.
Also, it'd be great to have servers specifically for people who want to gut the game, read the back stories, do all or any story arc, and basically play the game for what it was intended for. Perhaps on these servers if there is excessive PLing, they can be voted off the server. I would transfer all the character from my server to that one in a heartbeat, but I'd like to only pay a small one time fee rather than $9.99 for every character! I have a lot!
I don't know about you all, but I'm getting sick of hearing lvl 45s saying "How the heck did you get that cape?!".
[/ QUOTE ]
Agreed, 5. I can't count on both hands how many times lately I run into players levels 20+, more often higher, who have no idea how to get capes. Or auras, after 30. Some of you may read that and think, "so what?" Obviously, few people know how to get capes and all the extra stuff when they first start. But you learn things like that by interacting with the community, being part of it. Sometimes, that's left out in the farms where no one even really talks. When I see a high level player with only AE badges, no cape or aura (or both), I'm not the least bit surprised anymore. I know some people don't care anyway and that's fine too, not a big deal.
Personally, I don't care one way or another if XP were removed from AE completely, at this point. But that's b/c I don't often do them for the sake of XP, if I can't also get a good story. Maybe less people on the server, but...Victory is a ghost town anyway....lol.
I enjoy great stories/bios/characters, and teams who RP a bit even, but these are fewer in number than ever, at least from my experience. And as more crap is heaped upon the ENDLESS pile of AE "missions", I see my own work get pushed more and more out of sight, as well as the work of countless others. People who actually put some thought into a story and want people to experience it.
When you've played long enough and you've done just about all the arcs/TFs/whatever, it's refreshing to think that you could experience new content at the hands of those you team with. The idea is nice, but digging through farm after farm to find a good story where someone put some creativity into it is increasingly difficult, let alone trying to get someone to experience YOUR content. I'm not saying farms have no place, and really, sometimes that's all a 50 has to do, is farm. I understand that. But...there has to be something to better organize the filter/searches maybe, in AE?
So..that's my somewhat non-directional point of view on AE. Cut the XP, halve it, increase it, whatever. I don't see any of that happening anyway. Meanwhile there are pages and pages and pages and pages and pages and pages (and pages) of things that I'm not intersted in, with the needle-in-a-haystack good story here and there in the mix. Good luck finding one.
[ QUOTE ]
Yeah but the problem with CO's Nemesis system is that it starts when half of your character's career is over.
[/ QUOTE ]
Indeed, that is a problem, unless of course they plan to both prolong the career and actually have the first part of your career be dedicated to the story of how you got to being a Super-being in the first place... something I personally would love to see.
I doubt that I'd get my CO wishes come true as you're probably right and the Nemesis sub-system will stay the same, but perhaps other similar sub-systems can crop up later on...
I believe that a Kheldian Gold Standard should be based on SO's, and for anything above that... there's Platinum!
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
I'm not a farmer.. I don't like farming personally... but you know what? I don't care if people do it, on accounts THEY pay for, or not.
What is with people trying to decide how other people should be allowed to play their characters? They pay for the account, they put in the time... they don't impact you other than some broadcast spam.
They aren't harrassing you, they aren't, really, doing anything with their play time that impacts anyone but themselves in any significant way. You most likely will never play with these people. You will most likely never talk to these people. You will most likely never even encounter these people outside of a broadcast.
So why is this an issue for people?
You know, I don't care how people want to play the game either, that's their prerogitave.
But here is where my point lies, and I think many will agree.
"You will most likely never talk to these people. You will most likely never even encounter these people outside of a broadcast."
Exactly. So logically, if more and more people act in this fashion, and become players that a non-farming individual most likely wouldn't associate with, then most likely there are less players to team with for those who just want to play and not farm.
[ QUOTE ]
What is with people trying to decide how other people should be allowed to play their characters? They pay for the account, they put in the time... they don't impact you other than some broadcast spam.
[/ QUOTE ]
Firstly, I'm not trying to decide how anyone should play. I am however saying that if one chooses to exploit the system, they should not get upset if their exploits get shut down.
You're also quite mistaken, in my experience, in assuming that using exploits to farm isn't harming anyone else. Since an exploit is sometimes "fixed" by re-balancing a power-set, or the custom critters we create -- and since these changes are downloaded into our client program, or appear in the server, on patches and updates -- we are all affected by anything that changes, be it power modifiers or the inclusion of ranged attacks that do more damage than the power-sets they're added to!
These changes for example could potentially cause a mission that was soloable on character X to be impossible to solo, which essentially changes the mission itself, thus decreasing the amount of control the missions' author has over it and forces the author to re-balance the mission. When this happens, that is a result of an exploit being found by Farmers who then used it so much that it appears on the GMs' radar and forces the Devs to balance it with counter-measures that in turn force the missions' author to re-balance their mission.
Sometimes, the exploit results in the Devs actually pulling out a specific NPC-type and all the missions that used that NPC-type are now either un-playable, or require the author to change them... so yeah... how is this not affecting me directly as an author?
Not to mention that if the Devs are busy responding to GM's marking missions that have new exploits in them, this means the Devs are not working on a game-feature or content. Isn't that affecting all of us?
I believe that a Kheldian Gold Standard should be based on SO's, and for anything above that... there's Platinum!
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
[ QUOTE ]
Exactly. So logically, if more and more people act in this fashion, and become players that a non-farming individual most likely wouldn't associate with, then most likely there are less players to team with for those who just want to play and not farm.
[/ QUOTE ]
That falls into the realm of an individual player's perogative to decide how they want to play the game. Other players in MMO don't exist just to provide you or anybody else with teaming opportunities. The same argument can be made for some soloists, husband/wife teams or those who group exclusively within their SG/VG.
Now, if farmers choose to associate exclusively within their circle and cut off contact with non-farmers, nobody has the authority to tell them otherwise. They're playing the game based on what is most enjoyable to them and if their choice means that you won't be able to find teams easily, that's entirely your problem.
Blaming AE for these changes is still using AE as an scapegoat. These same arguments have been raised when other content was added in the past.
The problem is with people not having patience. Just like with quick katies, there was so much hate about "IT" and it was the blame for no teams in other zones and every other "issue" that impatient players had.
Now it's AE/MA that is to blame. I say stop blaming it and blame yourselves if things aren't going as you like.
Personally, I'd like Co* to yank the e-mail system so I don't have to look at the red e-mail in my menu. But I blame myself for not be able to deal with some stupid red letters. But I do see that people rather focus on other things besides people who are abusing the e-mail system to scam people out of money.
When that issue gets cleaned up, then maybe some won't look so hypocritical.
[ QUOTE ]
It's not that I'm saying Champions Online is better. I am saying that there are ways to limit abuse of content that can be "baked" into the content piece itself.
The real problem is, old engines are not designed for that.
[/ QUOTE ]
I can agree with this. Of course a custom content system that was designed from the inception is going to fare a whole lot better than a patchwork system implemented post release. That's what I meant by PS putting themselves into a no-win situation by adding AE to the game. After spending all the energy promoting it and then finally implementing it, they can't very well just take it out or gut it so drastically that few players would want to use it. Such an action would be an outright admission that AE has failed miserably and it'd generate a PR nightmare, both within the CoX playerbase and the MMO industry in general. The best they can do at this point is limited damage control and let the playerbase use it for farming, PL or whatever other purposes (within reason of course).
That's also the reason why I think the "don't farm the AE" statements made the devs to be a bunch of hogwash that was based on neither reality nor logic. You don't need to be an MMO veteran to know that whenever a flawed system is implemented, there will be tons of people just waiting in line to beat it. Just look at our IRS tax code.
Someone has probably said what I'm about to say, but I'll just add my two cents.
I enjoy the storyline aspect of AE more than the rewards. HOWEVER, if the XP was removed from AE missions, I would probably not play them very often, if at all.
I don't farm, I don't PL, but until I start to pay for every other person's subscriptions, I hardly think it's my place to tell them they can't or shouldn't do.
However, just because I don't farm doesn't mean I don't want to not be rewarded for spending time killing things. I haven't played through any story arc that was so incredible I'd play it even if it didn't give me xp. The reason I do it so much and enjoy it so much is that even the worst stories are a very refreshing change of pace from newspaper missions.
I don't know if any of that made sense, but the short version is that it would take some kind of incredible, pulitzer prize winning novella to make me want to play an XP-less MA.
Though I'm against farming and power-leveling in the AE, I think that XP does have it's place in the AE.
I am at a bit of a loss how one would gain salvage from fallen foes (in fact different ones that the ones that you are fighting) simply because you earned "tickets" in a "virtual" game. (this is all kind of nutty anyway as it is a virtual game inside of a virtual game.) The ticket system makes far less sense to me that xp in the MA/AE does. If it was just for unlocking gear for the MA it would make more sense. What do do with the extra tiickets? Use them to rent billboard space to promote your arc in the City? Use them to have NPCs talk about how cool your arc is? Use them to pay to play "DEV's Choice" and "Hall of Fame" arcs (If they are really that good, wouldn't they be worth 10 tickets to play?)? etc.
If there wasn't XP in the AE, a majority of players would never use it.
How many players use the Ouroboros or exemplar/malfactor?
I rarely exemplar or malfactor and the only reason I use Ouroboros is quick transit and easy to reach insp store at level 25+. I don't care for the flashback system at all, but that is probably because I'm an alt-oholic and not a solo character player.
By the very nature of this game, it is a game about alts.
I understand your rational that you shouldn't be getting "real" training in a "virtual world", but we have to look at the fact that "virtual training" is being used to prepare some people for some very hazardous and/or combat related jobs, so there is some "merit" to training in a "virtual" environment.
One of them is that you "can't be killed", so maybe what need to happen is that there should be "no debt" related to "falling" in the MA/AE.
Replace it with a "three life" system and add a "bonus life" for each mission completed. Run out of "lives" in an ae mission and you "lose" the arc and have to start all over again. Beef this system up even more by not rewarding any tickets until the arc is complete and you have something...but only if you get rid of one and two mission arcs.
...bah...I'm in ranting typing mood...I need to go play before I fall over.....
[ QUOTE ]
Another person saying they see another thread about an important issue bothering a great number of people.
[/ QUOTE ]
It's funny how a "great number of people" seem to be relegated to these forums, no matter how many general purpose global channels I listen in on.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Only Devs choice and Hall of Fame missions should give full XP. The rest should give 50% XP and 50% Inf.
[ QUOTE ]
Only Devs choice and Hall of Fame missions should give full XP. The rest should give 50% XP and 50% Inf.
[/ QUOTE ]
I've yet to play a Dev's Choice that was not horrible. /unsigned.
Infinity and Victory mostly
dUmb, etc.
lolz PvP anymore, Market PvP for fun and profit
The Devs make all kinds of decisions for this game that you might not agree with or like, but it's thier game and Devs Choice is just another aspect of that. There is also the Hall of Fame which is purely based on player feedback.
[ QUOTE ]
Depends on what you mean by min/max.
*
If a team goes in to fight a group of lvl 54 archvillains and builds the team to do that, I see nothing wrong with that personally.
*
Teaming, debuffs, and buffs have always been used in that way with how this game works. Hell we have a DEV-created TF in which you can FIGHT a team of the strongest AVs and Archheroes all at once. And folks have no issue in building a min/max team to take on THOSE scenarios. In fact at one time those AVs WERE also lvl 54. Many complained when they were toned down because they felt it was reducing challenge from the game.
[/ QUOTE ]
No, this is definitely not the min/max I'm talking about.
[ QUOTE ]
Now if you make a map of lts or minions with no defense that's a different story.
*
Not that I personally care what anyone does. That's the dev's job. Not any players.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yup, that's what I'm against, especially as described so eloquently by Folonius in his AE Farm Guide.
I agree that's the Dev's job to fix this issue, but I care about it being fixed because it is essentially affecting me because if I have to avoid an AE PuG team because all they're doing is going through story-arc after story-arc (or worse, the same story-arc) of one-mission with the same Lt's to be fought, and with no real effort required when fighting... I'm bored and I have to explain why I have to quit the team and go do something else.
I try to be polite, of course, but once I even got a tell asking me what I was still doing in the AE center from someone who lead a farming team I quit moments ago.
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati