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Does anyone else feel that the level 32 mind control power should be buffed up a little bit?
[/ QUOTE ]A whole mess of people. You might have found them if you'd looked around.
To the OP, yeah we all noticed,
Seeds > MC
but
Mind Control ~=~ Plant Control
I don't see an issue.
Here we go again :P
Spines/ D A lvl 50 Scrap, stone/wm lvl 50 tank, Kat/reg lvl 50 Scrap
Grav/Kin lvl 50 Cont, Fire/Enegry lvl 50 Blast
Warshade lvl 50, PB lvl 39, nightwidow lvl 50, crab lvl 42
plant/thorns lvl 50 dom, ice/fire lvl 40 dom, grav/nrg lvl 41 dom
@Mental Maden @Maden Mental
"....you are now tackle free for life."-ShoNuff
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Seeds > MC
but
Mind Control ~=~ Plant Control
I don't see an issue.
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wrong on both counts
Plant relies on Seeds way too much, you get a group that 's confuse resistant, say goodbye to Plant's AoE mitigation
Seeds is a cone, meaning you have to line it up right to get the most out of it, not necessarily a huge deal, but it is something to take into consideration
Mass Confusion is Aggro Free, this *is* a big deal, since it means enemies that you miss aren't automatically aggroed on you, in the lower levels when seeds isn't perma, everyone will attack *you* when seeds wears off.
Mass Confusion has a larger area, this is a big deal when you've got a group that's very spread out.
As for plant being about equal to mind... I'm not going to get into that argument past saying the only thing plant has on mind is AoE damage, Mind takes the lead on every other account.
No
Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo
I think you underestimate our fools, sir.
Why /duel is a bad idea
Wth are you talking about? I have a 50 plant/kin and his SoC do NOT cause me aggro. The only aggro you do get is if you get too close to cast SoC in the first place. Do it from a distance and once SoC is out they just stand like morons.
"~=" is Matlab notation for inequality, though most people are familiar with the notation "!=". ~= is also sometimes used to denote similarity, though : /
I think he meant !=
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Wth are you talking about? I have a 50 plant/kin and his SoC do NOT cause me aggro. The only aggro you do get is if you get too close to cast SoC in the first place. Do it from a distance and once SoC is out they just stand like morons.
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Seeds of Confusion note [ QUOTE ]
Nofity Mobs Always
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Mass Confusion note [ QUOTE ]
Nofity Mobs Never
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No
Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo
I think you underestimate our fools, sir.
Why /duel is a bad idea
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"~=" is Matlab notation for inequality, though most people are familiar with the notation "!=". ~= is also sometimes used to denote similarity, though : /
I think he meant !=
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I hope so, but in either case my argument stands :P
No
Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo
I think you underestimate our fools, sir.
Why /duel is a bad idea
The difference is, for Mind Control mass confusion is "just another tool" which can be used at the users discretion. Its ability to completely lockdown a spawn without putting the controller in any danger means that it is the strongest AoE control in the game. Mass Hypnosis ofcourse breaks with damage, confuse does not.
For Plant Control, seeds of confusion is the staple, core power. Without it Plant Control is severly lacking. Thankfully not many mobs are resistant to confuse.
To the above poster, if you do seeds, the whole spawn aggroes you. However ofcourse only the ones you miss are capable of doing so. OR more importantly, bosses that you do not overpower will immediately attack.
Funny thing is. I don't use seeds all that often and yet I do fine and have no worries.
Maybe I am gimping myself and need to L2Seed.
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Plant relies on Seeds way too much, you get a group that 's confuse resistant, say goodbye to Plant's AoE mitigation
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Spore Burst
Vines
Carrion Creepers
If I quote #'s, they're from City of Data.
Global: @Kazari
It was either Taunt or Purple Triangles of Doom. I stand by my decision!
-BackAlleyBrawler
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"~=" is Matlab notation for inequality, though most people are familiar with the notation "!=". ~= is also sometimes used to denote similarity, though : /
I think he meant !=
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I should have used just a tilde, but I was sleepy when posting. In my opinion (and having played both sets to high levels) Mind and Plant are very different but both are highly effective. Neither is 'better' than the other.
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Wth are you talking about? I have a 50 plant/kin and his SoC do NOT cause me aggro. The only aggro you do get is if you get too close to cast SoC in the first place. Do it from a distance and once SoC is out they just stand like morons.
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Seeds of Confusion note [ QUOTE ]
Nofity Mobs Always
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Mass Confusion note [ QUOTE ]
Nofity Mobs Never
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Nofity?! Is that what we're doing to them? Dang, now I feel bad for all those mobs.
If mass confusion were given the same recharge as Seeds I wouldn't care if it aggroed every fucing mob in the Zone.
The whole "OMG it AGGROZ STUFF" is [censored] moot. You have aoe holds and other crap.
Oh and btw, one of Mind's "tons of other stuff" is our fear, which guess what... aggroes everything and lets it get a free shot on us before it kicks in.
Everyone with a Mind Controller main would trade Mass Confusion for Seeds.
Plant isn't gimped without SoC...
Spore burst ~ Mass Hypnosis
Vines ~ Mass domination
?? ~ Terrify
Carrion Creepers ~ ??
SoC > Mass confusion
Telekinesis is situational. Until they let more mobs fit into it, or reduce its endurance cost, it's not a bread and butter power. Spirit tree likewise is situational, and I'm going to overlook it.
What Mind excel in over Plant is single target control. a single target confuse, a single target sleep, and a single target knockup.
Does Mind's single target control and damage justify having SoC and mass confusion so different? I don't think so. Plant also has a pet.
Now I don't think mass confusion should be exactly the same as SoC. But some buff is in order.
"Honesty is for the most part less profitable than dishonesty." -- Plato
Playing Gods (51106) - Heroic Lvl 5-20
What Rough Beast (255143) - Villainous Lvl 40-50
Didn't I see you post the same thing before? Anyway, you're pairing them up, but putting SoC against MC and Terrify against nothing, when it makes much more sense to pair Terrify up with SoC. Both are frequent area controls that contribute damage (though Terrify's control is less total and Seeds' damage is via confused mobs). Mass Confusion is nowhere near as frequent, agreed, so it's not the best choice for comparison.
I team with the Repeat Offenders.
Yes, I did. My opinion on the two sets hasn't changed, so I end up posting the same thing when the same issue is raised. 
There are (at least) two ways to classify the powers. The first position is classification by function, which is what kind of function the power fulfills in the set. Yours belongs to that camp, where mass confusion does not have the same function in mind control, compared to seeds of confusion in plant control (("frequent area control").
The second position is classification by effect, which is what kind of effect that power has. I fall into the second camp.
The reason I put myself in the second camp is argument from the first position can only be valid due to developer intention (i.e. the question of whether a power should be a keystone, or supplementary power, is fixed). Since developer intention is currently unknown, the question of whether something is a frequent area control is simply the question of whether the power recharges quickly enough to be used as such. Changes in a powers recharge, acc, end cost, etc often change a role different powers play in a set (as the recent dominator changes are demonstrating).
If Terrify is the frequent area control for Mind control, I would feel sad, because level 12 fearsome stare from a defender set is so much better as a damage mitigation tool. 
Earthquake and Ice Slick are very similar powers. However, earthquake does not play the role in earth control as Ice Slick plays in ice control. Ice slick is the opener power (due to the lack of better, frequently up opening powers). Stalagmites is more frequently used as the opening power for earth control. It is possible to classify ice slick with stalagmites (opening powers), or classify ice slick with earthquake (area kd powers).
It is not possible to know whether the lack of a better opening power in ice control is due to design intention, or ill-design. There used to be some justifications in that Jack Frost was a more damaging pet, but that again was a sort of "guess the dev's intention" thing, but now the improved Pooman is much better than Jack Frost.
I'm not even sure all the control sets can become equal and yet different.
"Honesty is for the most part less profitable than dishonesty." -- Plato
Playing Gods (51106) - Heroic Lvl 5-20
What Rough Beast (255143) - Villainous Lvl 40-50
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"~=" is Matlab notation for inequality, though most people are familiar with the notation "!=". ~= is also sometimes used to denote similarity, though : /
I think he meant !=
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It also means approximatly Equal.
I love Mass Confuse
Mind is a great control set, and in my opinion, nothing needs to be changed. Unless they wanted to give Mesmerize the ability to slot recharge in to it... That still irks me, even is I can slot multi-aspect enhancers in it to work on that.
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If mass confusion were given the same recharge as Seeds I wouldn't care if it aggroed every fucing mob in the Zone.
The whole "OMG it AGGROZ STUFF" is fucing moot. You have aoe holds and other crap.
Oh and btw, one of Mind's "tons of other stuff" is our fear, which guess what... aggroes everything and lets it get a free shot on us before it kicks in.
Everyone with a Mind Controller main would trade Mass Confusion for Seeds.
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You are wrong, the fact that Mass Confusion doesn't cause aggro is a huge benefit, especially when I'm staring at a +3 8 man spawn with multiple bosses. Also Mind Control can easily "double up" its mass confuse with its single target confuse which again, causes no aggro.
Small tip also, don't open with terrify, open with Mass Hypnosis.
Freem, my argument (about comparing Seeds of Confusion to Terrify rather than Mass Confusion) is based on player experience, which we do know, rather than developer intention, which we don't. We don't need to read anybody's mind (no pun intended) to know that Seeds and Terrify are every-fight control, but Mass Confusion isn't.
I team with the Repeat Offenders.
Yes. It is precisely because of that (basing it on player experience rather than knowing dev intention) that the argument that SoC is a every-fight control whilst mass confusion isn't doesn't hold when examining the recharge of SoC vs mass confusion.
A power becomes an every-fight control when its recharge is low enough for it to use every fight. If mass confusion were to have the recharge of SoC, it would become an every-fight control. If SoC had the recharge of mass confusion, it would cease to become an every-fight control.
It makes no sense to use a result arising from how fast a power recharges, to argue for/against how fast the power should recharge.
"Honesty is for the most part less profitable than dishonesty." -- Plato
Playing Gods (51106) - Heroic Lvl 5-20
What Rough Beast (255143) - Villainous Lvl 40-50
I have played both a Plant and a Mind controller to level 50, and I was wondering if anyone else noticed the vast difference in these two powers? I played my mind controller to 50 before power proliferation, and I loved mass confusion! Then I played my Plant controller and wondered how I could have ever liked MC.
Seeds of confusion has a shorter recharge, and the base confuse is for the same amount of time. I believe mass confusion may hit a few extra people but from my experience I can keep an entire group perma confused with my plant troller, and not even close to perma confused on my mind troller.
My question is: Does anyone else feel that the level 32 mind control power should be buffed up a little bit? Considering they don't get a pet one would think that the power they get instead would be able to at least compete with a low rank power from another controller set. I for one would love to see MC have its recharge brought down to be equal with SoC.
If this has been brought up before can someone please link to the thread, or if there are any holes in this I would love to know what they are so I can re-evaluate my beliefs on this issue.