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If mass confusion were given the same recharge as Seeds I wouldn't care if it aggroed every fucing mob in the Zone.
The whole "OMG it AGGROZ STUFF" is fucing moot. You have aoe holds and other crap.
Oh and btw, one of Mind's "tons of other stuff" is our fear, which guess what... aggroes everything and lets it get a free shot on us before it kicks in.
Everyone with a Mind Controller main would trade Mass Confusion for Seeds.
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You are wrong, the fact that Mass Confusion doesn't cause aggro is a huge benefit, especially when I'm staring at a +3 8 man spawn with multiple bosses. Also Mind Control can easily "double up" its mass confuse with its single target confuse which again, causes no aggro.
Small tip also, don't open with terrify, open with Mass Hypnosis.
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QFT this is a huge difference.
Spines/ D A lvl 50 Scrap, stone/wm lvl 50 tank, Kat/reg lvl 50 Scrap
Grav/Kin lvl 50 Cont, Fire/Enegry lvl 50 Blast
Warshade lvl 50, PB lvl 39, nightwidow lvl 50, crab lvl 42
plant/thorns lvl 50 dom, ice/fire lvl 40 dom, grav/nrg lvl 41 dom
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Unless they wanted to give Mesmerize the ability to slot recharge in to it... That still irks me, even is I can slot multi-aspect enhancers in it to work on that.
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I thought I read something about that getting fixed.
If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
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Unless they wanted to give Mesmerize the ability to slot recharge in to it... That still irks me, even is I can slot multi-aspect enhancers in it to work on that.
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I thought I read something about that getting fixed.
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it wasn't a bug, it was intentional
however, it can now be slotted for recharge.
No
Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo
I think you underestimate our fools, sir.
Why /duel is a bad idea
I'm surprised that Terrify doesn't receive higher marks. I've never used it but the stats seem really impressive. What am I missing?
Terrify (from Mids v1.41):
- 30.6 Psionic damage
- 60ft Range (10ft less than fearsome stare)
- 90 degree cone (45 degrees more than fearsome stare)
- Mag 3 Fear, 20.9 seconds (51.2 seconds w/ 2 lvl 50 Fear IOs)
- 40 second recharge (21.8 seconds w/ 2 lvl 50 Recharge IOs)
- 67.5% Accuracy (123% w/ 2 lvl 50 Accuracy IOs)
It looks like a power I'd kill to have on another Controller.
To stay on topic: I agree that Mass Confusion is generally less powerful than Seeds of Confusion. But like some others who have posted, my impression has always been that Plant and Mind are overall about at the same levels of power, and that both are generally a bit more effective than Ice and much more effective than Gravity.
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Yes. It is precisely because of that (basing it on player experience rather than knowing dev intention) that the argument that SoC is a every-fight control whilst mass confusion isn't doesn't hold when examining the recharge of SoC vs mass confusion.
A power becomes an every-fight control when its recharge is low enough for it to use every fight. If mass confusion were to have the recharge of SoC, it would become an every-fight control. If SoC had the recharge of mass confusion, it would cease to become an every-fight control.
It makes no sense to use a result arising from how fast a power recharges, to argue for/against how fast the power should recharge.
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No, but if your comparison of Mind Control to Plant Control is about level of effectiveness, you need to compare apples to apples: the powers in each set with similar levels of effectiveness. If you compare Mass Confusion to Seeds of Confusion, and come up with Mass lacking, but have "Terrify -> ??" left over, you have not said anything one way or another about which powerset is better. And if Mind is fine as a set, I see no problem with it having Mass Confusion as is, even if Mass Confusion is terrible. Plenty of powersets have one or two pointless powers no one takes. As long as the rest make up for it, it's fine.
If you just want to compare what has the best confusion, fine, but no one really cares about that metric in a vacuum, right?
I team with the Repeat Offenders.
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if your comparison of Mind Control to Plant Control is about level of effectiveness, you need to compare apples to apples: the powers in each set with similar levels of effectiveness. If you compare Mass Confusion to Seeds of Confusion, and come up with Mass lacking, but have "Terrify -> ??" left over, you have not said anything one way or another about which powerset is better.
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Did I give that impression? 
Sorry if I did, what I was comparing are the powers that act similarly to each other. Carrion creepers and Terrify cannot be directly compared because they work differently (under my method of classification).
If SoC were to have its recharge nerfed to mass confusion level, then plant would be left to alternating between Carrion Creepers and Vines. This would leave it short of control because in my experience Vines tends to recharge in 3 spawns, and carrion creepers in 2 spawns, for an average team, leaving the plant without control in the odd spawn. (I do not include sleep).
So it is true that plant control leans more heavily on SoC than mind control leans on Mass confusion, and that the other cc tools (sans SoC and mass confusion) of mind > plant.
However, since SoC and mass confusion are what they are, I consider plant somewhat better than mind at "crowd" control, but mind (vastly) better than plant at single target control.
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And if Mind is fine as a set, I see no problem with it having Mass Confusion as is, even if Mass Confusion is terrible. Plenty of powersets have one or two pointless powers no one takes. As long as the rest make up for it, it's fine.
If you just want to compare what has the best confusion, fine, but no one really cares about that metric in a vacuum, right?
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Actually, I care that similar powers to have cost and efficiency standardized according to a certain metric in a vacuum. I find "how the set is doing as a whole" subjective and not useful when thinking about balancing powers. I understand that not everyone shares the same viewpoint 
Anyway, I'm not asking for completely equality. It doesn't matter if they are not exactly equal (factoring some consideration of the entire sets' balance, since there is no perfect vacuum), but they shouldn't be so unequal that it is blatantly obvious. It would be like giving giving ice bolt the damage of blaze but justifying it with the idea that ice blast is a single target oriented set whereas fire blast a good AoE capability.
"Honesty is for the most part less profitable than dishonesty." -- Plato
Playing Gods (51106) - Heroic Lvl 5-20
What Rough Beast (255143) - Villainous Lvl 40-50
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If mass confusion were given the same recharge as Seeds I wouldn't care if it aggroed every fucing mob in the Zone.
The whole "OMG it AGGROZ STUFF" is fucing moot. You have aoe holds and other crap.
Oh and btw, one of Mind's "tons of other stuff" is our fear, which guess what... aggroes everything and lets it get a free shot on us before it kicks in.
Everyone with a Mind Controller main would trade Mass Confusion for Seeds.
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You are wrong, the fact that Mass Confusion doesn't cause aggro is a huge benefit, especially when I'm staring at a +3 8 man spawn with multiple bosses. Also Mind Control can easily "double up" its mass confuse with its single target confuse which again, causes no aggro.
Small tip also, don't open with terrify, open with Mass Hypnosis.
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I don't open with either if I'm in a team where a controller can do anything but hope to get off an EPP attack. I generally start off Confusing the boss or Lt. of a spawn and then doing whatever.
Anyways. I agree with the OP in that, having played a mind/ta and a mind/kin and a plant/rad to 50 I have to say the Plant/Rad was a cakewalk compared to mind. And this was mostly do to being able to spam Seeds.
Seeds is the cornerstone of plant. I'd also say it's overpowered at the level you can get it.
I think it's important for me to state that I in no way want plant nerfed. I have a level 50 plant and I like him. When all the powers are out, and I have the radiation clouds going, it looks like "Natures Revenge 2 - Hell on Earth".
I would however like Mass Confusion lowered from a base 4 minute recharge to a 2 minute recharge. That would make it usable in most fights with a few recharge enhancements.
Does anyone think the perfectly balanced nature of the game would crumble if Mass Confusion were Available once a fight?
I do think it is funny everyone seems to focus on Mass confusion as Mind's problem power. I think if anything needs to be looked at or tweaked it is telekinesis and to a lesser extent terrify. Mass confusion would be much further down my list.
If we're selectively comparing powers, terrify vs. fearsome stare or vs. spectral terror? Yea terrify has damage, but damage so weak that it still leaves mind last in the AoE damage category. A start would be giving terrify the -acc debuff component that was always listed but never put in.
I would've thought the problem power would be Total Domination - that one just feels like a dang load. Maybe it's the fact that so many powers come off as potential problem powers that's the problem here..
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Yea terrify has damage, but damage so weak that it still leaves mind last in the AoE damage category.
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Earth? Ice? I don't understand what you're comparing here.
I have to agree that Mass Comedy is not the "problem power" of the Mind Control set ... it's Telekinesis.
Telekinesis has ... what ... the second highest endurance cost of any toggle power in the game? And a Max Targets limit of are you frakkin' kidding me *FIVE*?!?!
The max limit of targets ought to be at least 10 ... if not 16.
And by all the Greek Gods running around in CoH ... I would LOVE IT if Telekinesis had its effects bifurcated into TWO powers. Use the same mechanics as what we've got for Kheldian Forms as far as allowing a single power choice to unlock additional "inherent" powers. That way, you can have a target AoE toggle HOLD power which "unlocks" an additional target AoE toggle Foe Repel power ... and I don't have to have BOTH EFFECTS going on at the same time if I don't want them both to be on at the same time. Slot the Hold and Foe Repel powers individually.
Telekinetic Hold toggle
Telekinetic Push toggle
Simple.
Easy.
Effective.
NOT BEING DONE. 
It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...
Now, that said: Mass Confusion isn't the "problem power", no. It's the jewel of the set, the thing Mind Controllers look forward to through the first half of their career as their defining attribute. It is probably one of the set's best powers.
..and everything it does is done better by a level 8 power in another set.
The problem is in the combination of these two facts.
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everything it does is done better by a level 8 power in another set.
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WRONG
the only thing that's better about seeds is the recharge
Mass Confusion:
Has the same target cap (though it used to be higher until Seeds was buffed with proliferation)
Has a larger range
Is an AoE rather than a Cone, meaning you don't have to line up the shot or get in as close
-speaking of AoE, the radius is bigger than Seeds
Is Aggro Free
Has the same base duration
No
Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo
I think you underestimate our fools, sir.
Why /duel is a bad idea
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Now, that said: Mass Confusion isn't the "problem power", no. It's the jewel of the set, the thing Mind Controllers look forward to through the first half of their career as their defining attribute. It is probably one of the set's best powers.
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Personally, I don't look forward to Mass Confusion. I look forward to Terrify.
Also, Mind Control is filled to the brim with really, really good powers. Just because Mass Confusion doesn't hold up to Seeds doesn't make Mind a bad set in the least. Were Plant relies heavilly on two really awesome powers (Seeds and Carrion Creepers), Mind spreads the work out among four (Mass Hypnosis, Terrrify, Mass Confusion, and Total Domination).
Both sets have different strengths and weaknesses, but both are powerful soloers and contribute a lot to any team.
Oh, I love my mind controller. It's just really disappointing that my plant controller has a superior version of her top power.
Aggrolessness isn't a big benefit to me for Mass Confusion, because Confusion's recharge is short enough that if I want to start softening up a group without alerting them I use that instead - Mass Confusion's recharge is long enough that it gets reserved as a panic button. Mass Hypnosis is nice situationally (but Plant has the very similar Spore Burst anyway). Total Domination needs heavy slotting to even begin to be functional. Terrify is nice.
It's just really hard to compare them in any way that doesn't end up heavily favoring Plant.
Edit: To clarify my thoughts a little: Confuse, the single-target version, is an excellent power - it recharges quite quickly, so you can throw it around with reckless abandon, and being aggro-free means that in a situation where you aren't spotted you can confuse most of the spawn with it about as readily as with Mass Confuse. If you are spotted - well, Mass Confusion's vaunted aggrolessness that supposedly balances it against Seeds isn't really doing you much good in that situation.
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Yea terrify has damage, but damage so weak that it still leaves mind last in the AoE damage category.
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Earth? Ice? I don't understand what you're comparing here.
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Earth and ice's AoE immobilize powers do better damage over time than terrify. Mind is last place in AoE dps.
Not even getting into the fact that getting and keeping containment set up for mind is also tougher, which affects things like the epic AoE attacks.
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I would've thought the problem power would be Total Domination - that one just feels like a dang load. Maybe it's the fact that so many powers come off as potential problem powers that's the problem here..
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Nope, because the AoE hold for mind is the same as the AoE hold for pretty much every controller set. If anything mind's is a little better than some since it is ranged, unlike ones like cinder, glacier, and flash.
Mind has always been the dark horse of trollers. I'm always impressed when I see a lvl 50 Mind troller cause that seems a very painful treck. I always wanted to try Mass Confusion out, but when plant went live and I got a taste of seeds I thought wow this is totally unfair to Mind trollers. Put some Range to expand its cone and it has a 20 sec recharge, just Seed, Root, Carrion, and reap the AOE XP.
I still think Mind is one of the best Controllers you can bring to a team because the set doesn't waste time with a pet that is really mostly useful for soloing. In Mind you have:
- The ability to stack more mezzes than any other set (Sleep, Confuse, and Hold all have single target versions, unlike all other Controllers who can only stack Hold)
- An additional auto-hit Hold that can be canceled once its no longer needed
- 3 powers that don't notify enemies. This means 1/3rd of the powers in Mind Control do not draw any aggro at all.
- The superior version of the 2 flavors of AoE hold (targetted vs PBAoE).
The more I think about it, the more I think my next Controller should be a Mind.
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Earth and ice's AoE immobilize powers do better damage over time than terrify. Mind is last place in AoE dps.
Not even getting into the fact that getting and keeping containment set up for mind is also tougher, which affects things like the epic AoE attacks.
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There seems to be a lot of confusion here, pardon the pun.
Firstly, terrfiy is a good source of AoE damage. Saying otherwise means you haven't played with it properly. Its only downside is the long recharge. Terrify does the same damage as Dominate and Mesmerize, so when slotted for damage it is a good early source of AoE damage, available from 26. (My slotting is 2acc, 3dmg, 1rech)
Saying that the AoE immobalize do better DPE is silly. Even if they do, they do so low damage it is pointless to waste slots.
Secondly I don't see why people think that the absence of a pet makes Mind so much harder to solo after 32. I've never been that impressed with the quality of controller pets, especially having to babysit them and go out of your way to get them to work right. Exceptions to Singy and Fire imps of course.
With levitate, mesmerize and dominate slotted for damage, you wont be missing a pet I asure you. Throw in mass hypnosis so that you can pick apart a spawn at early levels one by one and its almost risk free as well. I think people really need to experiment before they say that having no pet is a pain. I think people over value pets in a lot of cases.
Then at later levels you can combine terrify + EPP AoE to big effect. The only problem Mind control has is setting up reliable AoE containment, but as a /storm, thunderclap fills that gap for the most part quite nicely.
Getting back to the topic, I do feel the seeds vs mass confuse debate is pretty pointless.
I really don't get where the perception that Mind levels slowly comes from.
Levitate, Mesmerize and Dominate are great damage when slotted as such and you get single target confuse for dangerous mobs.
As far as Mass Confusion is concerned, I wouldn't mind buffing to it but the overall performance of the set doesn't warrant it at all in my opinion.
As someone else pointed out earlier in the thread, only Telekinesis might be worth be looking into.
@Viper Kinji
Currently working on:
Turtle Snapper - SD/MA/Ice Tanker
One must really focus on the ENTIRETY of Mind/, not just a single power it has. So what, I can only use Mass Confusion every 2 minutes (assuming I didn't decide to take hasten (I decided to take hasten)) or so, I still have a whole mass of other controls I can throw at the enemies in the meantime. That's before you even throw in a secondary.
I prefer Seeds of Confusion, and the Plant set as a whole. Mind is definitely a good control set, but I find Plant more fun to play.
Too many alts to list.
You can't compare two powers without looking at the rest of the powers in the set. Both sets' powers are designed with the other powers being considered - they have to be.
When I do powerset comparisons, I think of the first four powers as 'key every-fight powers' while the latter five are more 'handy tools for interesting situations'.
Seeds of Confusion is a first-four power for plant, so forms a key part of its control ability. Without it available every fight, plant would be the red-headed stepchild of control sets.
Mass Hypnosis is a more obvious comparison than Mass Confusion It lets a mind controller do similar things. It's superior in that it doesn't agro, letting the solo or small-team mind controller really pick their battles, but it's a sleep - so the large-team mind controller will get limited mileage out of it.
Mass Confusion is a very handy 'I want that spawn gone please' power, especially when coupled with terrify. I think its' utility compares well to that of a controller pet: handy, speeds up soloing considerably but not really essential for doing the key job of controlling.
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"~=" is Matlab notation for inequality, though most people are familiar with the notation "!=". ~= is also sometimes used to denote similarity, though : /
I think he meant !=
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It also means approximatly Equal.
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*cough*
No
Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo
I think you underestimate our fools, sir.
Why /duel is a bad idea