Go fight Johnny Sonata, solo, then come back and try to tell me that PTOD, or something like them, is not necessary for the game.
[ QUOTE ]
Go fight Johnny Sonata, solo, then come back and try to tell me that PTOD, or something like them, is not necessary for the game.
[/ QUOTE ]
I can't really tell if you are saying PToD are necessary or they are not necessary.
Does Johnny Sonata NOT have PToD? And thus it is trivial? Or would it be trivial if he didn't? Or are you saying he proves PToD are an unneeded burden?
If it's possible to make all mezzes (for Doms and Controllers only) have a proportional -rech (something like how crits for Scrappers work) to them such that it's minimal-to-non-existent for bosses and below to stackably potent for EBs and up, then I think I'd consider the issue resolved. Keep the PtoD the way it is if this can be done, and at least there will be reason to be applying those mezzes all the time. It still allows AVs etc. to be dangerous while providing for some efficacy of these ATs primaries.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Go fight Johnny Sonata, solo, then come back and try to tell me that PTOD, or something like them, is not necessary for the game.
[/ QUOTE ]
I can't really tell if you are saying PToD are necessary or they are not necessary.
Does Johnny Sonata NOT have PToD? And thus it is trivial? Or would it be trivial if he didn't? Or are you saying he proves PToD are an unneeded burden?
[/ QUOTE ]
Johnny Sonata's Soul is an Arch Villain without PToD. He is trivial, if boring, for any Dominator to solo, assuming a moderate damage output.
That said, something very unlike them would make me much happier. For instance, if individual powers had "mez protection", so the more mez you can stack the weaker your enemy becomes, but they'll always have something available. Talen of course may consider that "like the PToD" since it's a subjective comparison.
[ QUOTE ]
Johnny Sonata's Soul is an Arch Villain without PToD. He is trivial, if boring, for any Dominator to solo, assuming a moderate damage output.
[/ QUOTE ]
Thanks. I've taken on AVs as EBs before, including those that have PToD, but I really don't pay attention. If it registers on me that, "Oh, my holds aren't working" I'll adjust my strategy. But if you ask me after the fact, "Hey, does so-and-so have Purple Triangles?" I won't have a clue. 
I don't think anybody is really suggesting eliminating PToD, though, I think the main suggestion is increasing and decreasing mez protection over time, instead of it just being an on/off thing. I don't know, some sort of -mez protection in a power or two might result in something like that.
I like the "chance for unresistable hold while in domination" idea.
QR
Weatherby_Goode - "Heck, Carrion Creepers negates the knockdown from Carrion Creepers."
[ QUOTE ]
I don't know, some sort of -mez protection in a power or two might result in something like that.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, the issue is that mez powers are technically -mez protection powers. They're just not strong enough to break through the ridiculous levels of PtoD.
I'm not sure whether unresistable mezzes are implementable in this game, other than doing a "give x% chance to do additional 1000mag mez" or something like that.
Again, I'd be happy if Controller and (especially) Dominator controls had a crit-like (i.e. low-scale on minions, lts, even bosses but high-scale on EBs and up) -rech with high stackability. That way you get the effect of the EB+ "struggling" against your mez while still being able to do stuff, obviously "failing" occasionally when PtoD drops.
None of these proposed HP changes are going to happen. Despite common assumptions, Dom's are already damn potent on live now. In a smart player's hand a Dom can steam roll through a good portion of PvE content. With the damage changes that's only going to be more so.
Adding anything else to the AT is only asking for a future nerf in capabilities elsewhere, as we've already seen with the current revamp. People will be soloing EB's easily if these current changes hit live. * ok, competent people will . I think the Dev's know this already, its the whole reason the PTOD exist already. PTOD are what keep doms from trivilizing end game content. And a couple of perma doms can still break them.
My level 50 Dominators:
Madame Mindbender 50 Mind/Energy
Fly Agaric 50 Plant/Thorn
Nate Nitro 50 Fire/Psi
[ QUOTE ]
Perhaps Dominators could be given individual, "unresistable" holds? Or the Domination effect could randomly make their hold penetrate the PToD. Not sure how that would be implemented, but it's a thought. Feel free to reject it because it would make Domination more powerful, of course. :/
[/ QUOTE ]
Few AV's have mez resistance, just flat protection. (think integration vs accel metab). Unresistable holds wouldn't do anything that normal holds don't already do.
If I were attempting to tackle the PtoD issue for controllers and doms:
-Lower ptod mag protection to 15-20, maybe less (currently 50).
-Give them constant mag 10-14 protection
-Give them mez resistance (think how pvp holds work now, they always work, but for much shorter).
Numbers would likely need testing and tweaking
Result
- every dom/troller regarless of build could hold AVs for short burst, for a more consistent mitigation factor (rather than no mitigation followed by total mitigation like live ptod).
- non control toons could never/rarely mez them alone (no more solo corrs holding AV's when ptod drop.
- multiple control based toons working together could still hold the AV indefinitely or close to it.
That is just off the top of my head, but like I said, if the issue is AV's then you fix AV's - not the rest of the game.
Sorry if its a little sloppy but i typed this fast
nothing needs to be changed with POTD or av's i think they are fine as they are.
they are made for teamwork not to solo plain and simple.
And castles changes to doms so far from my 2 doms i played on test is Excellent probably the best thing that man has done that i actually LIKE my mind/fire is grand i love it.
taking the damage buff out of domination to be honest on test i dont look back at it domination is still awsome and its still great to be perma dom.
My ice/psi well lets see its more usefull now the attacks are actually worth using i changed my build and took psi scream does the damage it should now and mental blast does as much damage as subdual now wich makes it actually worth having and the change to PSW doesnt affect me at all the change isnt near as bad as i thought it might be im use to my blaster version so it didnt affect me at all it still has good damage just have to learn to use that in conjuction with psi scream and you still have tons of nice aoe damage all my toons are team based solo is to me boring.
doms as they are on test are great and i hope castle decides to keep them this way as they make me love my doms more then ever before no other changes and buffs are needed i am one happy camper
and to the people about all this stupid talk about adding something else to domination are just plain being stupid imo
HP buffs and all that is just plain retarted if you play your dom like it really should be played and are on a good team you shouldnt even rarley be taking damage thats what BRUTES and TANKS are for let people play there roles let Brutes be the meat corrs do there debuffing doms do the holds and so on and so fourth.
I follow the brute or tank let them get some aggro and then i go nuts thats why we have them its there role i have teamed with really good ones and i take like zero damage thats also why people have healers cause some people like to heal im sure some here understand where im coming from here im not saying any of this to be a smart or rude but its pretty simple logic.
AV'S are for teams they where never designed or thought of as being soloable
to many people are more concerned about how there toon can solo but the smart ones bring friends/teammates 
this game has tons of soloablility compared too *COUGH* WoW you cannot solo any high lvl dungeon or instance in that game those (elites) rip thru you like warm butter you need a good group of people most mmo's are all about teaming wich is what to me makes the game so much more fun each class has its use and role and i think alot of people forget about that who play coh/cov i always have had more fun times with groups then solo.
But yeah i cant wait for i15 to go live
[ QUOTE ]
AV'S are for teams they where never designed or thought of as being soloable
[/ QUOTE ]
I doubt you'll find many that disagree with this. Even those of us that solo AV's on some of our toons likely still think AV's are designed to be tackled with friends (I know I think it).
However, you'll find a lot less people willing to agree that a dominator/trollers primary should be practically useless through the majority of the encounter. And at the point our primary *does* work a simple corruptor could have mezzed the AV 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
AV'S are for teams they where never designed or thought of as being soloable
[/ QUOTE ]
However, you'll find a lot less people willing to agree that a dominator/trollers primary should be practically useless through the majority of the encounter. And at the point our primary *does* work a simple corruptor could have mezzed the AV
[/ QUOTE ]
i agree with you on that there but with a good team it shouldnt really matter much if the av is held as they have like crap immob protection wich is usefull for dom/troller to be around as well as give the dom/controller more chance with there secondary wich has uses like any other secondary it always has some sort of use.
But even for instance my hold doesnt hold right away it still does damage if earths hold doesnt hold it does damage and -def if my ice dom or troller hold doesnt hold it still does -rech and damage so it doesnt make doms/trollers completey useless during the fight my Mind dom really shines in rsf tho hehe
you have a good point tho. i see what you mean
Just Another Thought
then again if you could perma hold a av that would be kinda stupid too in a sence they wouldnt be any sort of challange
Although i have seen a av held for quite a bit of time already on certain teams alot longer then what you would normally see
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
AV'S are for teams they where never designed or thought of as being soloable
[/ QUOTE ]
However, you'll find a lot less people willing to agree that a dominator/trollers primary should be practically useless through the majority of the encounter. And at the point our primary *does* work a simple corruptor could have mezzed the AV
[/ QUOTE ]
i agree with you on that there but with a good team it shouldnt really matter much if the av is held as they have like crap immob protection wich is usefull for dom/troller to be around as well as give the dom/controller more chance with there secondary wich has uses like any other secondary it always has some sort of use.
But even for instance my hold doesnt hold right away it still does damage if earths hold doesnt hold it does damage and -def if my ice dom or troller hold doesnt hold it still does -rech and damage so it doesnt make doms/trollers completey useless during the fight my Mind dom really shines in rsf tho hehe
you have a good point tho. i see what you mean
Just Another Thought
then again if you could perma hold a av that would be kinda stupid too in a sence they wouldnt be any sort of challange
Although i have seen a av held for quite a bit of time already on certain teams alot longer then what you would normally see
[/ QUOTE ]
The only issue with the immob is that pretty much any AT can bring that. Same problem with when they do hold them when the ptod drop, pretty much Any AT can do that.
The secondary effects do help a bit, but at the same time AV's have very high resistance to them (like 85% res), so unless you are stacking extreme amounts of said secondary effect they don't tend to have much impact on the battle.
You are right, perma holding an AV makes the encounter go from boring to very boring quite quickly.
The ptod offer mag 50 protection, two doms working together can overcome that (some solo perma doms can even).
Interestingly enough the ptod are up for ~50 sec and then down for ~25. So all told any dom can offer 33% mitigation over the course of an extended AV fight. Numbers wise that is actually more than many support toons provide in the same situation.
However, as mention almost any AT can hold them when the ptod are down, so being a dom is nothing special in that regard.
Still, 33% mitigation is very good, yet the general consensus remains that control is useless in AV encounters. I think my post on the last page sums up "why" that is.
[ QUOTE ]
Few AV's have mez resistance, just flat protection. (think integration vs accel metab). Unresistable holds wouldn't do anything that normal holds don't already do.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, "resistance" could be -protection, or whatever else accomplishes the task. The idea here is to remove the mechanism that a Dom's holds are off/on, and that more than one Dom doesn't do anything to change that. A couple of Doms working together, or one Dom who happens to get lucky, can break through from time to time.
Changing AVs might help, but it's not going to change the fact that anybody can use a hold. (Unless you just gut everyone else's ability to use control powers period) Controllers, at least, have a random element to their magnitude, so their hold magnitude varies over time. With Doms it's a constant, Domination is either up or down.
I do like the resistance idea, although I thought that Bosses and higher were already effected by a shorter duration than normal on holds. Is that more a factor of the difference in level or rank between the AV and the player? At any rate, Doms and Controllers have two things that distinguish their holds and other mezzes from other ATs, magnitude and duration. Not to mention that Domination boosts duration.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Few AV's have mez resistance, just flat protection. (think integration vs accel metab). Unresistable holds wouldn't do anything that normal holds don't already do.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, "resistance" could be -protection, or whatever else accomplishes the task. The idea here is to remove the mechanism that a Dom's holds are off/on, and that more than one Dom doesn't do anything to change that. A couple of Doms working together, or one Dom who happens to get lucky, can break through from time to time.
Changing AVs might help, but it's not going to change the fact that anybody can use a hold. (Unless you just gut everyone else's ability to use control powers period) Controllers, at least, have a random element to their magnitude, so their hold magnitude varies over time. With Doms it's a constant, Domination is either up or down.
I do like the resistance idea, although I thought that Bosses and higher were already effected by a shorter duration than normal on holds. Is that more a factor of the difference in level or rank between the AV and the player? At any rate, Doms and Controllers have two things that distinguish their holds and other mezzes from other ATs, magnitude and duration. Not to mention that Domination boosts duration.
[/ QUOTE ]
"-protection" would just lower the mag required to overpower them. Once done it would be held. Unless you made the ptod fluctuate in strength, but that isn't exclusive to a -protection addition.
Controllers have a 10% chance of +1 mag (overpower), it is very easy to determine their avg mag over time, it really doesn't fluctuate much at all.
Dominators on the other hand ARE much harder to quantify. IN domination some builds can exceed 50 mag, out of domination more typical numbers are mag 12-20 depeding on slotting.
In my idea for changing AV's no other AT besides doms/trollers would ever be mezzing them on their own unless it was a highly specialized build like an ice/ice/elec blaster. Which is fine, the idea is to keep control in the domain of control based toons (which can include fringe builds like the example blaster).
Hold duration is unaffected by the ptod, most people just often face AVs that +con, which does affect duration (along with pretty much everything else out there).
Actually if I were given the keys to tweak ptod I'd:
ptod up
-Protection that fluctuates in 20 second cycles between mag 6 and mag 40 ie. ~~~~~~~ (wavy)
-Control breaker - mag 100 protection for 5 seconds every 40 seconds (unaffected by recharge)
-approx 50% resistance to mez.
-remove sleep and immob hole. Move immobs to standard mez protection covered under ptod. Change sleep to mag 8 protection.
btw, triangle are ALWAYS up.
Result:
-non control focused toons aren't mezzing AV's (ie trivializing
control)
-the AV plays red light green light during the fight (think of a new driver--vroom>urch>vroom>urch)
-peak protection w/ resistance factored in is higher than now (during the waves) thus reducing the possibility of perma statue by 1-2 control toons
-even with several control toons the "control breaker" prevents a statue fight.
Overall:
a single dom/troller will still end up providing similar mitigation that they do now (33% with holds), but it will be spread out over the entire fight rather than long period of doing nothing, followed by medium period of total mitigation.
Multiple control toons working together will still overpower the AV for most of the fight.
Don't get rid of the immob/sleep holes. They are the only way that control sets have to do something *all* the time, not just part of it. Controllers need to be able to immob PToD EB's to get containment while soloing, and sleeps are mind's only contribution while the PToD are up. As it stands, these two mez types being holes are *good* - they give control sets something to do which isn't too overpowering but still useful.
Also, you seen how much some AVs run away? Eeesh. Gotta be able to immob em.
Personally, I would make use of whatever tech they did with blasters and the new defiance to make AVs who slowly become able to use fewer powers as mez is stacked. If you can break the PToD completely, they use no powers at all, like now. But if you can stack enough mag to get partway there, the av loses access to some of his powers. The breakpoint should probably be somewhere north of mag 10 - it should allow a well-slotted controller or dom to stack that much hold, but most other ATs would have a hard time (perhaps there could be a second breakpoint somewhere around mag 20 to 30 - designed for two toons to reach). The biggest problem with mezzes and AVs imo is the binary nature - either they're held, or they're not. The problem with alternating periods of vulnerability and invulnerability is that the uptime of the protection, not the strength of the mezzes, dictates the mitigation provided. There needs to be a system that allows for increasing levels of mitigation as the magnitude of hold stacked increases.
Alternatively, keep the vulnerability cycles, but instead of having the protection flicker back and forth between 0 and 50 in a binary fashion, have it scale up and down slowly. So, if you can only manage mag 6 of hold, the AV will only be held for 25 seconds, as now. But if you can stack mag 9, he'll be held for, say, 30s. If you've got 12, 35s, etc, etc, all the way up to being held the whole time at mag 50, as now.
@MuonNeutrino
Student, Gamer, Altaholic, and future Astronomer.
This is what it means to be a tank!
[ QUOTE ]
But if you can stack enough mag to get partway there, the av loses access to some of his powers.
[/ QUOTE ]
Or, by adding stackable -rech to Controllers/Dom...ah, I give up. No one listens to me.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But if you can stack enough mag to get partway there, the av loses access to some of his powers.
[/ QUOTE ]
Or, by adding stackable -rech to Controllers/Dom...ah, I give up. No one listens to me.
[/ QUOTE ]
We listen, they'd need to remove or lower the -rech resistance.
A cold corr w/ Heatloss, snowstorm, sleet and infrig end up doing 69% -rech so not even -rech capping an even con AV. It just gets worse against +con. Ya that's a lot of mitigation, but it is also 460% -rech!!!!
[ QUOTE ]
Don't get rid of the immob/sleep holes. They are the only way that control sets have to do something *all* the time, not just part of it. Controllers need to be able to immob PToD EB's to get containment while soloing, and sleeps are mind's only contribution while the PToD are up. As it stands, these two mez types being holes are *good* - they give control sets something to do which isn't too overpowering but still useful.
Also, you seen how much some AVs run away? Eeesh. Gotta be able to immob em.
[/ QUOTE ]
the immob and sleep holes are just evidence of poor design. I'd consider lowering sleep to mag 6 though so a solo mind can still sleep an AV with masshyp+mezmerize. But mass sleeping multiple AV's is not working as intended.
As for the immob hole, did you know my fire troller can stack in excess of 150 mag in immobs?
Some dominators can exceed mag 200! in immobs
Putting immob under the same classification as other mez using a similar model to mine would still result in any troller/dom immobing the AV for the majority of the fight with little effort. Just no more trivializing the experience with 1 immob every minute or a webnade from a scrapper
If not everyone could effortlessly immob an AV then a troller/dom bringing that value would increase their relative worth.
Actually, because AV's run so often (like you say) if you pretty much required a dom/troller to immob them that would make said toons very desirable.
[ QUOTE ]
Personally, I would make use of whatever tech they did with blasters and the new defiance to make AVs who slowly become able to use fewer powers as mez is stacked. If you can break the PToD completely, they use no powers at all, like now. But if you can stack enough mag to get partway there, the av loses access to some of his powers. The breakpoint should probably be somewhere north of mag 10 - it should allow a well-slotted controller or dom to stack that much hold, but most other ATs would have a hard time (perhaps there could be a second breakpoint somewhere around mag 20 to 30 - designed for two toons to reach). The biggest problem with mezzes and AVs imo is the binary nature - either they're held, or they're not. The problem with alternating periods of vulnerability and invulnerability is that the uptime of the protection, not the strength of the mezzes, dictates the mitigation provided. There needs to be a system that allows for increasing levels of mitigation as the magnitude of hold stacked increases.
[/ QUOTE ]
I like this idea, but I sort of feel like most AV's only spam 2-3 attacks? This mechanic (or the idea of it) works on a player scale because when they start losing access to powers it is very tangible. With an AV using so few attacks I'm not sure how valuable the shutdown would be perceived to be as I think it would still feel very binary.
ex. Last time I solo'd Nightstar on my fire troller I one shot immobed her and killed her from full 80ft range, she just cycled 1 attack. If I moved closer she also started using a cone (energy torrent).
I think on paper it would be very valuable, but so is the current control mechanic vs ptod. I just have concerns about how it would be perceived by players in game.
[ QUOTE ]
Alternatively, keep the vulnerability cycles, but instead of having the protection flicker back and forth between 0 and 50 in a binary fashion, have it scale up and down slowly. So, if you can only manage mag 6 of hold, the AV will only be held for 25 seconds, as now. But if you can stack mag 9, he'll be held for, say, 30s. If you've got 12, 35s, etc, etc, all the way up to being held the whole time at mag 50, as now.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is pretty much the same thing I suggested. The big exception is I think the vulnerability cycles need to go bye bye. I just stated faster cycle times as I prefer a more stop and go experience rather than prolonged periods of either being held or free. I'll just throw out a number, but anything over 10 seconds at a time (held or free) in an AV fight either means too boring, or not enough contribution respectively.
When you think about how debuffs are reduced specifically for AV's, it makes little sense that an AV could/would be perma held. If rad infection is not intended to make everyone invincible like it does against normal mobs, why should control?
IMO, no AV should ever have a vulnerability period, that just stinks of bad design. (well a thematic period works, like if an AV is being constructed, it makes sense it would be weaker before complete).
AV's should be tough. No one should be one shot ANYTHING'ing them (whether sleep, immob, kill, w/e).
A scrapper with a hold proc and pet gaze should NEVER be able to hold an AV, that is just silly. It should ALWAYS take a control specced build (ie troller/dom/ ice/ice/elec blaster) to ever mez an AV.
Want trivialized? watch a scrapper immob an AV with webnade; oh ya why is the dom here again?
AVs should almost never be mezzed for the majority of the time (exception being very control heavy teams). Statue AV's are as boring as they get.
AV's should almost never be unmezzed for long periods of time (ie current 50 sec up, 25 down of ptod). It makes control toons feel inadequate.
Seriously a stop and go system is probably the best solution for an all in one AV fix. Stop and go was implemented into pvp so that control would never feel useless, but opposition could still function without ever being reduced to a statue.
I think that sums up how AV encounters should go too albeit with a bit longer held periods than is seen in pvp currently.
[ QUOTE ]
I'd consider lowering sleep to mag 6 though so a solo mind can still sleep an AV with masshyp+mezmerize. But mass sleeping multiple AV's is not working as intended.
[/ QUOTE ]
Mass Hypnosis and Mezmerise don't stack - the damage from mez breaks any previous sleeps. The only way to stack sleeps is to have 2 characters with non-damaging sleep powers which would make sleep basically useless in most of the cases being discussed here.
I always figured the fact that sleep broke instantly was being used to balance out the low mag sleep resistance even the toughest mobs tend to get.
Globals: @Midnight Mystique/@Magik13
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'd consider lowering sleep to mag 6 though so a solo mind can still sleep an AV with masshyp+mezmerize. But mass sleeping multiple AV's is not working as intended.
[/ QUOTE ]
Mass Hypnosis and Mezmerise don't stack - the damage from mez breaks any previous sleeps. The only way to stack sleeps is to have 2 characters with non-damaging sleep powers which would make sleep basically useless in most of the cases being discussed here.
I always figured the fact that sleep broke instantly was being used to balance out the low mag sleep resistance even the toughest mobs tend to get.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well if you did Mezmerize first and then Mass Hypnosis.
"Yes, winning all the time can be boring."
-Knight_Chill
"It's amazing how well you can put up with endurance issues if you hide them under a large enough pile of bodies."
-Spiritchaser speaking on Dom Revamp
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'd consider lowering sleep to mag 6 though so a solo mind can still sleep an AV with masshyp+mezmerize. But mass sleeping multiple AV's is not working as intended.
[/ QUOTE ]
Mass Hypnosis and Mezmerise don't stack - the damage from mez breaks any previous sleeps. The only way to stack sleeps is to have 2 characters with non-damaging sleep powers which would make sleep basically useless in most of the cases being discussed here.
I always figured the fact that sleep broke instantly was being used to balance out the low mag sleep resistance even the toughest mobs tend to get.
[/ QUOTE ]
Sorry I typed that the wrong way, meant mesmerize+masshyp.
I maintain that oneshot anything'ing an AV is just silly.
[ QUOTE ]
tl:dr version - I'm not sure what points you are trying to push anymore (if it was ever clear). But if your newest line of thinking is to add more additional benefits to domination, but exclude out of domination mode then I'll just say no thx. People said they disliked the on/off feeling of the AT for a reason and Castle listened. I doubt he is looking to increase it again.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, that's up to you, of course. It was your idea to increase either HP or resistance for a Dominator, and I disagreed with that suggestion, as I felt it had no chance to be implemented. In the interest of discussion, I tried to suggest a solution that I felt had a better chance of being accepted by the devs. If that's not good enough for you, if you're unwilling to accept anything but all or nothing, fine. You may disregard my suggestion, you have every right to.
You are perfectly welcome to cross your fingers and hope that the devs boost Dominator HP. Maybe they will, they did it for Blasters, and they did it for Stalkers, so who knows?
[ QUOTE ]
If AV's are a major problem then it is AV's that need to be changed not dominators. Why tweak doms for 1% of the game at the risk of unbalancing the other 99%?
[/ QUOTE ]
This is a point. I'm not sure the devs will see it that way, though. PToD are there to keep holds from trivializing AV encounters, while you may argue about the implementation, it may be easier to design certain powers around the implementation, not the other way around. For instance, AVs have resistance to debuffs, but some debuff powers are unresistable.
Perhaps Dominators could be given individual, "unresistable" holds? Or the Domination effect could randomly make their hold penetrate the PToD. Not sure how that would be implemented, but it's a thought. Feel free to reject it because it would make Domination more powerful, of course. :/