[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
O rly........ well yay!!! Stalkers get crits... doms do not. Dominator's need more hp. 
[/ QUOTE ]
Heh. I guess that's as good a logic as any.
(And actually, I always said Domination should have been a Crit, but that would have made the difference between the two even GREATER. Maybe like a 50% Crit, though? After modifiers?)
[/ QUOTE ]
/Signed on both
Post Comic book Fan Films that ROCK!
Fight my brute
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
O rly........ well yay!!! Stalkers get crits... doms do not. Dominator's need more hp.
[/ QUOTE ]
Heh. I guess that's as good a logic as any.
(And actually, I always said Domination should have been a Crit, but that would have made the difference between the two even GREATER. Maybe like a 50% Crit, though? After modifiers?)
[/ QUOTE ]
/Signed on both
[/ QUOTE ]
It's a bit late for that now.
[ QUOTE ]
Many people don't even read patch notes - they won't know anything's changed at all, except they might notice they do a bit more damage or a power recharges more slowly than it does now. Most people, if they find out at all, will find out by word of mouth.
[/ QUOTE ]
Most testers seem to be reporting that the increase in damage is quite noticable. And that's not just one or two testers, that's nearly everyone, with all sorts of playing styles. I would only call it a "bit more damage" if you were perma-Dom before, and that's not a casual player.
I don't think it's realistic to believe that a casual player WON'T notice the increased damage. Certainly not to Energy.
[ QUOTE ]
We aren't saying Dominators are a melee archetype, just that they are often pushed into melee range to play, similar to how blasters used to be.
[/ QUOTE ]
Blasters still have that option. And in fact, Blasters still do considerable damage with their melee attacks. There's just less of a feeling that they HAVE to enter melee to do enough damage to survive.
With Dominators, there probably is a sense that they have to enter melee to deal enough damage to survive. But that doesn't make them a melee archetype. Meleers remain in melee, and they have Defense, that is what makes them able to remain in melee and not have to wait until it is safe to move in, and move out of melee when it is not.
Dominators, like Blasters, are a combination of range and melee. They're not going to get the hit points of a meleer. And they're unlikely to get the hit points of a Blaster as long as they have longer lasting holds than a Blaster.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
We aren't saying Dominators are a melee archetype, just that they are often pushed into melee range to play, similar to how blasters used to be.
[/ QUOTE ]
Blasters still have that option. And in fact, Blasters still do considerable damage with their melee attacks. There's just less of a feeling that they HAVE to enter melee to do enough damage to survive.
[/ QUOTE ]
Are you just summarizing what I said? because this is exactly what I said 
for some reason you cut off the line above the one you quoted that said exactly that though.
[ QUOTE ]
With Dominators, there probably is a sense that they have to enter melee to deal enough damage to survive. But that doesn't make them a melee archetype. Meleers remain in melee, and they have Defense, that is what makes them able to remain in melee and not have to wait until it is safe to move in, and move out of melee when it is not.
Dominators, like Blasters, are a combination of range and melee. They're not going to get the hit points of a meleer. And they're unlikely to get the hit points of a Blaster as long as they have longer lasting holds than a Blaster.
[/ QUOTE ]
You seem to be the only one that keeps trying to pigeon hole them into a melee archetype. They aren't.
The rest though I'm not sure why you are just repeating what I said.
Seeing as how it feels like I'm more or less talking to an argumentative version of myself, heh, I may as well just think out loud:
I don't think a mild hp boost would do much of anything for them. If anything I'd give them scaling resistances while domination is down that are null while it is up.
That would help with the 20 some odd levels where doms all but require melee attacks, but lack the developed controls to promote that playstyle. It would also lessen the continued perceived notion that domination is "ideal" because out of domination you lose a ton of defense through control. Scaling res outside of domination would help to close that survivability gap and further reduce the on/off feel. (which I don't like, but hey if you are going to do it, might as well finish the job).
[ QUOTE ]
You seem to be the only one that keeps trying to pigeon hole them into a melee archetype. They aren't.
[/ QUOTE ]
Quoting Southern_Comfort:
[ QUOTE ]
I'm going to bite here and cross my fingers that it doesnt go awry.
Dominators all have a damage secondary chalk full of melee attacks. Why in the world would a dominator NOT be considered a melee archetype?
[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You seem to be the only one that keeps trying to pigeon hole them into a melee archetype. They aren't.
[/ QUOTE ]
Quoting Southern_Comfort:
[ QUOTE ]
I'm going to bite here and cross my fingers that it doesnt go awry.
Dominators all have a damage secondary chalk full of melee attacks. Why in the world would a dominator NOT be considered a melee archetype?
[/ QUOTE ]
[/ QUOTE ]
ah my bad. Southern and I aren't saying the same things though, I certainly never said they are a melee AT, which seemed to be a part of your counter to things I was saying.
[ QUOTE ]
ah my bad. Southern and I aren't saying the same things though, I certainly never said they are a melee AT, which seemed to be a part of your counter to things I was saying.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, I posted my contradiction to that quote, and you posted to contradict me. So you'll forgive my conclusion that you were supporting that position.
When you get right down to it, both Blasters, which aren't a melee archetype, and Stalkers, which are one, have the same hit points. So honestly, I don't think whether or not an AT is a "melee archetype" really has any bearing anyway. As I said, I don't think the Blaster hit point boost was anything but a bone tossed to the player base. It might help Blasters on a team, where they can get some defense, and it might help Dominators on a team, too. But I think the fact that Dominators can more consistently hold foes than Blaster can will make a bigger difference to the devs.
It's not that I'm opposed to the idea, I just don't think it's realistic. Either because it would be acceptable to the devs, or that it would actually help with a Dom's soloability, or performance against an AV.
(QR)
It's not hard to assume, by looking at both, the powers available and damage modifiers, that dominators were never intended to do optimal damage at range.
Some were able to sustain full chains, but those chains were still lacking when compared to chains that mixed in melee attacks.
So arguing "now I'm forced to use melee attacks" and "why have ranged attacks at all" are both not very strong arguments.
The only valid argument you could ever make is:
The set was able to sustain full, non-stop, ranged attack chain before the changes and I find it unfair they can no longer do this.
That, off course, may be dismissed IF it's proven that you can keep such attack chains with different powers or even mixing powers from your primary (even if you are not fond of it.)
Now, if you do say that you can't keep any sort of attack chain (melee+ranged) without involving primary powers, THEN you may have a very solid argument, note you can't ignore powers when doing this, you can't claim "but i can't do it with 3 attacks" if you have a very valid 4th available.
Actually, I think the changes to the ranged attacks have more impact on the Domination building strategies than the melee attacks. However, in the case of Energy and Psi, this may be a necessary evil to counter the lack of AoE damage in Energy, and then nerf to PSW for Psi.
At least the adjustment to the Tier 1 attacks seems to help this. Honestly, that Flares has gone from "never take this power ever, under any circumstances" (back in the days when it had a 3 sec cast time or some such) to "my attack chains are using 30% more End and I can't sustain them" says a lot more about how important it is to balance these attacks. Or so I think...
If you build in a way where you can keep a constant attack chain then your dom building ability should not be affected.
If however you decide to live with the gaps then yes, Domination building will be affected.
At low levels this may be an issue as you may have no much say in the matter, but after having enough powers or ability to build this "forced gaps" vanishes.
[ QUOTE ]
At low levels this may be an issue as you may have no much say in the matter, but after having enough powers or ability to build this "forced gaps" vanishes.
[/ QUOTE ]
I truthfully don't think at low levels the speed at which you build Domination depends as much on how fast you attack, as simply how many shots you get off before a foe dies. Over the time of a mission, including downtime and resting, it should come out as a wash.
Amusingly enough, when I started my /Fire Dom, Flares had that 3 second animation time I was talking about. I wasn't using that to build Domination.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
At low levels this may be an issue as you may have no much say in the matter, but after having enough powers or ability to build this "forced gaps" vanishes.
[/ QUOTE ]
I truthfully don't think at low levels the speed at which you build Domination depends as much on how fast you attack, as simply how many shots you get off before a foe dies. Over the time of a mission, including downtime and resting, it should come out as a wash.
Amusingly enough, when I started my /Fire Dom, Flares had that 3 second animation time I was talking about. I wasn't using that to build Domination.
[/ QUOTE ]
I just don't understand how anyone has trouble building dom in its base recharge....
I find that notion unfathomable.
When something good happens to me, I can never enjoy it....
I am always too busy looking for the inevitable punchline...
BEHOLD THE POWER OF CHEESE!
[ QUOTE ]
I just don't understand how anyone has trouble building dom in its base recharge....
I find that notion unfathomable.
[/ QUOTE ]
To be blunt, I suspect that we aren't actually talking about building Dom in its base recharge. We are talking about the people who have perma-Dom, and how long it takes them to fire it off for the first time.
This also applies, for low level Doms, to the time it takes them to fire it off for the first time in a mission. So I'll be fair about it. You're right, though, if you are waiting on Domination to recharge, likely you will have it ready when it does, particularly if you are on a team.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I just don't understand how anyone has trouble building dom in its base recharge....
I find that notion unfathomable.
[/ QUOTE ]
To be blunt, I suspect that we aren't actually talking about building Dom in its base recharge. We are talking about the people who have perma-Dom, and how long it takes them to fire it off for the first time.
This also applies, for low level Doms, to the time it takes them to fire it off for the first time in a mission. So I'll be fair about it. You're right, though, if you are waiting on Domination to recharge, likely you will have it ready when it does, particularly if you are on a team.
[/ QUOTE ]
Then why was this used as an arguement why Psi dart needed to go back to pitiful damage and quick recharge?
I can build dom in under 30 seconds under the 6 second psi dart, the 3 second psi dart and Live. I don't use the snipe exploit.
When something good happens to me, I can never enjoy it....
I am always too busy looking for the inevitable punchline...
BEHOLD THE POWER OF CHEESE!
[ QUOTE ]
I can build dom in under 30 seconds under the 6 second psi dart, the 3 second psi dart and Live. I don't use the snipe exploit.
[/ QUOTE ]
Are you representative of players as a whole?
The impact on building dom was hardly the central focus on why some people were experiencing issues with the long recharge of psi dart et al.
I'm not sure if people are simply misremembering something that only happened a few days ago, or some other phenomenon is occurring
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
ah my bad. Southern and I aren't saying the same things though, I certainly never said they are a melee AT, which seemed to be a part of your counter to things I was saying.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well, I posted my contradiction to that quote, and you posted to contradict me. So you'll forgive my conclusion that you were supporting that position.
When you get right down to it, both Blasters, which aren't a melee archetype, and Stalkers, which are one, have the same hit points. So honestly, I don't think whether or not an AT is a "melee archetype" really has any bearing anyway. As I said, I don't think the Blaster hit point boost was anything but a bone tossed to the player base. It might help Blasters on a team, where they can get some defense, and it might help Dominators on a team, too. But I think the fact that Dominators can more consistently hold foes than Blaster can will make a bigger difference to the devs.
It's not that I'm opposed to the idea, I just don't think it's realistic. Either because it would be acceptable to the devs, or that it would actually help with a Dom's soloability, or performance against an AV.
[/ QUOTE ]
I sort of suspect, not very much time is being taken to read other points being made.
I certainly never countered you in supporting that doms were a melee AT.
I countered your assertion that doms play "up close" somehow outside of melee but still in range to make good use of pbaoes. That really didn't make much sense when you said it as we know pbaoes are fired from the middle of spawns and melee attacks are used in melee range.
(Of course you also recent said doms assault sets are still intended for supplementary damage despite Castle publicly stating they are "dual role" now and should be legitimate damage dealers.) So it is a bit confusing trying to get behind anything you are saying.
I said why doms often find them themselves fighting from that range, but said in the exact same post they aren't a melee AT.
The fact of the matter is they have always experienced pressure to fight at that range for optimal damage output. That has not changed on live or test. Though test is even moreso.
All well, no harm, no foul.
[ QUOTE ]
I countered your assertion that doms play "up close" somehow outside of melee but still in range to make good use of pbaoes. That really didn't make much sense when you said it as we know pbaoes are fired from the middle of spawns and melee attacks are used in melee range.
[/ QUOTE ]
I never said that Doms fight "up close but out of melee range", what I said was that a Dominator does not stay in melee. He spends most of his time at a moderate range where he can use a hold, a cone attack, a ranged blast, or close to melee or to use a PBAoE. But he moves around in that range, he doesn't try to maintain it. I never said that Dominators STAY out of melee, I said that they do not stay IN melee. And that is by design. The devs did not design Doms or Blasters with the defenses to maintain melee range for long periods of time.
I was also referring to the ranges of Dom attacks, which range from around 15 ft for PBAoEs, to 40 ft for cones. This means if a Dom wishes to inflict full AoE damage on a target, he has to be within 25 ft on Live, or 15 ft on Test. This is distinct from a Corruptor, which can inflict AoE damage as far as 80 ft away. So actually I was distinguishing the Dominator in that it DOES have to get close to melee range.
I was arguing the point that a Dominator has to STAY in melee, (because it is designed to be a melee AT) and thus needs greater HP. If you want to argue that Dominators need greater HP because they get NEAR melee, that's fine, but I've already posted my counter argument to that.
[ QUOTE ]
(Of course you also recent said doms assault sets are still intended for supplementary damage despite Castle publicly stating they are "dual role" now and should be legitimate damage dealers.) So it is a bit confusing trying to get behind anything you are saying.
[/ QUOTE ]
I think that when Castle refers to a Dominator as "Dual Role" he is not saying that a Dominator should be doing as much damage as a Blaster. Merely that relegating the Dominator's Secondary to an afterthought, outside of Domination, does not help the Dom either solo or on a team. He is raising the damage of a Dominator to be comparable to a AT with damage in the Primary, such as a Brute or Corruptor. However,, I don't think that means that dealing damage will be the PRIMARY ROLE of the Dominator, simply because the damage has been raised to that level. Rather, he's giving the Dom enough damage for it to be significant, while leaving the primary role of the Dom as Control.
There is also the fact that a Dominator is niether a Brute nor a Corruptor, but half the attacks of each, mashed into a not necessarily consistent whole. A Dominator can never do as much damage as a Blaster, because it doesn't have as many attacks. And it can never do as much damage at range as a Corruptor, or as much damage in melee as a Brute, because it has no complete set for either of those attacks. The Dominator combines the two, being weaker than either a Corruptor or Brute, but more flexible than either. (In that it can either attack at range or in melee)
[ QUOTE ]
I said why doms often find them themselves fighting from that range, but said in the exact same post they aren't a melee AT.
[/ QUOTE ]
Even though a Dominator deals the greater portion of his damage in melee (much as a Blapper does) it is not true that the Dominator deals sufficient damage JUST in melee. The Dominator must support his melee attacks with holds and ranged attacks, not just to prevent his foes from fighting back, but also to "soften them up" and make the time required to defeat them once you move into melee less. And before you make the argument, even if you don't slot your holds for damage, they still will deal damage, and they will deal more damage now outside of Domination. Thus, whether a player expects his holds to deal damage or not, they will reduce the HP of the foe. If the Dominator has any experience at all, he will use other ranged attacks to supplement this damage as well.
So again, a Dominator is not a meleer, he is a combination of range and melee. This is what makes him a supplemental damage dealer, he is neither a specialist with melee damage, nor with range. He can at best perform to expecations by placing himself at risk and using both sets of attacks, as well as his Primary powers. As with Defenders, he really needs the support of his Primary to make his Secondary function at full potential.
I've also said in the past that Dominators are Control/Melee/Ranged. In the areas of Control and Melee the new Dominator has the capability of a Primary, but that isn't really true for Ranged. 0.95 is pretty high, but it's not as high as a Blaster, and it's probably slightly less than a buffed Corruptor. So at best a Dominator has 1.75 Primaries, and 0.25 Secondaries. (I would say a Blaster has 1.5 Primaries, being Ranged and Melee, and 0.5 Secondaries, being Control) All that is generalities, though, there's no numbers behind it.
The only reason my doms are ever out of melee is because there's nothing left to close with.
Doms are not melee AT.
They are no ranged AT either.
Look at the sets.
It's not Fiery Blast.
It's not Fiery Melee.
Its Fiery Assault.
Melee are expected to jump in and out of melee, the are meant to get close to do damage and the foe is not capable of getting out of range to be safe. That is what Assault sets are really about.
I still remember this line form beta too: There is no safer moment to close in and use melee attacks than when your foe is held.
I think the devs sort of got the idea for Doms after watching pre-pet solo controller builds using every melee attack in the pool powers to solo a bit faster and effectively.
"I never said doms fight up close but out of melee"
hmm
[ QUOTE ]
Dominators are not really intended to be in melee, like a Scrapper or Brute, they are intended to be at close range, just outside of melee range, but close enough to use a Cone or PBAoE.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well you did say exactly that, but I'm guessing it isn't what you meant.
Unfortunately the devs are out to lunch if they expect the majority of players to adapt a highly maneuverable combat style that utilizes unsuppressed movement to constantly reposition during a fight.
lol people park it and pew pew.
I'll just state with absolute certainty that most doms (except live fire and test energy) spend most of every fight standing right next to the enemy(ies).
You may joust in and out, I definitely do, but I am not typical.
I certainly never implied that by "dual role" they should be doing blaster damage. They don't come close, no one does. That doesn't mean other AT's aren't classified under the role of damage dealers.
Dom's two roles are:
1/ control
2/ damage
The definition of dual role means they are interchangeable as in:
1/ damage
2/ control
Which is also supported by Castle stating they would have two "primary" strength sets.
Range is irrelevant if you are standing 7 ft from your enemy when you are casting all those 80ft attacks
I think you have it stuck in your head that their are droves of noob doms that are somehow experts in jousting.
The truth is: if your attack chain requires you to be in melee that is where you will be (you as in avg player). Expecting anything else is just fooling one's self.
I actually now agree with you that doms are supplemental damage dealers, but for none of the reasons you state as those simply aren't why.
It is supplemental because they HAVE to use their primary to live long enough to deliver melee damage in a team scenario. Therefore it always comes secondary to their control and supplements it.
If they were true dual role their primary would stand on its own (and it does). And their secondary would stand on its own (but it doesn't). And they could choose to focus on damage supplemented by control in a team environment and solo. Or control supplemented by damage in either environment.
Unfortunately part of the puzzle is still missing. I doubt it is going to get fixed...
But then again, I also don't think the changes done so far are going to do much of anything in terms of popularity.
I also think doms will be back whining for more adjustments before the end of the year
Rereading the i15 dom thread I see I was right on pretty much every comment I made. And I'm sure the remaining ones that were forward thinking oriented will happen too. I also think the problems I'm talking about here will manifest in the near-ish future.
I guess we just have to wait and see. I know you won't convince me I'm wrong about the problems I see everyday, or the problems that I can figure out as easy as adding two figures together, but I applaud your efforts. Virtually every position you have taken is one of massive experience that avg players just don't have.
-whether it is slotting control powers for damage; if they even take them
-or apply advanced combat maneuverability
-or picking specific powers that allow a spawn to be neutralized so they can deal damage with ease.
(arguments like those are exactly the same as the old defiance supporters used, basically they said lrn2ply, which is what you are now saying)
All those things are basic for you and me and many others on these boards, but I continually see young doms spamming aoe immobs and then standing in melee waiting for bonesmasher to cycle and then getting pissed at the /cold corruptor for not healing them
[ QUOTE ]
I think the devs sort of got the idea for Doms after watching pre-pet solo controller builds using every melee attack in the pool powers to solo a bit faster and effectively.
[/ QUOTE ]
Maybe a lil, but I think the idea really came from Ice/Energy Blappurs using PowerBoost+Freeze Ray to hold mobs and then safely go in and smash them to death quickly and more efficiently (single target wise) with their devastating melee attacks. I'm almost sure of this.
[ QUOTE ]
Doms are not melee AT.
They are no ranged AT either.
Look at the sets.
It's not Fiery Blast.
It's not Fiery Melee.
Its Fiery Assault.
Melee are expected to jump in and out of melee, the are meant to get close to do damage and the foe is not capable of getting out of range to be safe. That is what Assault sets are really about.
I still remember this line form beta too: There is no safer moment to close in and use melee attacks than when your foe is held.
I think the devs sort of got the idea for Doms after watching pre-pet solo controller builds using every melee attack in the pool powers to solo a bit faster and effectively.
[/ QUOTE ]
In all fairness, they also intended for people to embrace the jekyl/hyde design. So standing by a "jousting" design doesn't necessarily hold water.
Casuals don't jump in and out of melee. They didn't on blasters, they don't on doms, they don't on any AT.
If they feel pressured to use melee that is where they will be most of the time for better or worse.
Exactly like Talen said (for my /elec and /icy) the only time I'm out of melee is when there are no targets left.
I'll jump in and out of melee range if I'm fighting an EB I haven't managed to hold yet, but otherwise I just stay in melee. How else is my proc-feet going to hit things?
[ QUOTE ]
Casuals don't jump in and out of melee. They didn't on blasters, they don't on doms, they don't on any AT.
[/ QUOTE ]
1) When I note in and out of melee I dont mean jousting, I mean staying at range doing poor damage if you dim melee too dangerous and go in close and personal in situations where your controls are strong enough to keep the melee safe.
2) You keep bringing the casuals into the topic but I seen enough casual doms doing good in live now to think that you want survivability compensated not for the casuals but for the retards. The game won't be balanced around retards.
3) Blasters did it and do it all the time, even casuals. Specially newbies. They tend to be more open on picking every power from their primary and secondary and actually test it and find how hard they hit with them.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I suspect that nothing we see on the test server can be taken as a statement one way or the other as to how the changes will affect dom popularity once they go live. To few people read these boards and/or play on the test server to get a good sample population.
[/ QUOTE ]
Many people don't even read patch notes - they won't know anything's changed at all, except they might notice they do a bit more damage or a power recharges more slowly than it does now. Most people, if they find out at all, will find out by word of mouth.
[/ QUOTE ]Unless it gets mentioned in the gmotd. And if people aren't reading that, well, [censored] them.
[/ QUOTE ]
Which is why I say a rewrite of the AT description would boost popularity more than the changes made.
That is to say, if chasing a goal as silly as popularity is intended.