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The more random the proc is, the harder the set will be to use in a reasonable way.
If you add a chance for knockup/down, energy blasters still have to plan around the chance for knockback, because knockback will still happen sometimes.
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Did you not read my post?
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you just plan on a KB happening and then when its U or D you can be "pleasantly surprised"
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So yes you would have to still plan on KB but the point is that it would not be as vital to do all the time and it would also make the set more team friendly and easier for new players to pick up and not tick every body off.
Captain Den'Rath 53* Merk/Traps MM, Rivona 50Energy Blast/Time Cor,Victoria Von Heilwig 53* Dual Pistols/Traps Cor, Crab Spider Webguard 53* SOA, Accela 53* Bot/FF MM,Valkyrie's Executor 53* Broadsword/Shield Def Scrap. On FREEDOM! @Knight Of Bronze
"Hypocrisy, the human inherent." "Let not this work be wasted, apply yourself always."
Here is how I see it:
Energy Blast can knock things to wall/corner and become useful.
Most of other sets don't even need to "position" yourself much to become useful and most sets have debuffs that can stack nicely.
It's hard to stack kbs..you just kb further and annoy some people more.
I think Energy Blast needs to do more damage. I can live with the kb but I think damage is not good especially other sets have better debuffs against AV/Hero.
Energy does look very cool.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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A bad player can make a bad set much worse. But a good player can't make a bad set much better.
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This I agree. I've seen some good Corrs who try to kb things to corner but it's really not that efficient. They just annoy "less".
I don't mind kbs as much. I just hate it when people don't know where they are knocking. I don't mind chasing a target with my Brute but I do mind if somebody kb foes to another group and then MM's pets or Dom's pets can't get recalled in time and then aggro another group.
Energy Blast, any way I look at it...is inferior but it's NOT unplayable. I am sure you can lvl to 50 with Energy Blast just fine. Energy's got style at least. Much like I think Martial Art is a poor child for Stalker. For single DPS, you can do much better with dark melee and energy melee. Why do you need a smashing set that masters nothing? (not in stun or knockback)
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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The more random the proc is, the harder the set will be to use in a reasonable way.
If you add a chance for knockup/down, energy blasters still have to plan around the chance for knockback, because knockback will still happen sometimes.
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Did you not read my post?
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you just plan on a KB happening and then when its U or D you can be "pleasantly surprised"
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So yes you would have to still plan on KB but the point is that it would not be as vital to do all the time and it would also make the set more team friendly and easier for new players to pick up and not tick every body off.
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Against a single target, yay? But single target attacks aren't that bad for Energy Blast anyway; you can use Power Burst to push stragglers back into crowds and Power Bolt and Power Blast have a fairly low chance for generally low magnitude KB anyway.
In an AoE, it's a better chance to scatter than it is now, since you not only have the %chance for the secondary effect, but then the effect itself may or may not move the mob. That's why it'd be worse - it's more random in where mobs end up.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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Actually, I may be one of the few people who actually like the kb in energy blast, well, at least in the single-target attacks. I don't mind it terribly in torrent because its pretty easy to position the cone so you knock stuff into walls etc...but whose idea was a targeted aoe with knockback? I mean srsly, the only think worse you could do to a spawn other than scatter it is dimension shift it 
.
Honestly, for me the kb isn't a big issue. The biggest issue is that energy is rather....mediocre on damage. Most primaries have strength's that make up for a weakness in a particular area. Energy has OK single-target and mediocre-at-best aoe damage. Unlike sonic it doesn't have control and -res to help it out, or control and good single target like Ice, or sick damage like fire. The only set I think that is 'equal' to energy in terms of effectivness is electric blast. Both cool looking sets with mediocre damage and good-looking nukes.
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Honestly, for me the kb isn't a big issue. The biggest issue is that energy is rather....mediocre on damage. Most primaries have strength's that make up for a weakness in a particular area. Energy has OK single-target and mediocre-at-best aoe damage. Unlike sonic it doesn't have control and -res to help it out, or control and good single target like Ice, or sick damage like fire. The only set I think that is 'equal' to energy in terms of effectivness is electric blast. Both cool looking sets with mediocre damage and good-looking nukes.
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I think that one way the dev's could sorta "fix" Energy Blast (in a sense) is to up it's ability at single target damage substantially and make it the "supreme" single target damage set. This means that the KB, while slightly hazardous to you and your team at times, annoying, etc, wouldn't be as huge a deal...if it was being applied to a single target that is. If you are targeting "one" mob in a spawn for execution and you knock him from one side of the room to the next, the team could care less as long as it's the "one" mob and your not aggroing other spawns nearby. Balance that single target nature with the ability to deal greater damage versus your "single target" (since your AoE is severly lacking) and I don't think there'd be a huge problem. If a mob goes flying off from KB...its because you're about to end it's existance very shortly, so the team should care less about the KB and target a different mob.
Anyways, that's sorta my "sort of" fix idea for Energy Blast...just increase it's single target damage and maybe swap out a couple of it's AoE's, making it the choice for single target damage/control, which may help to reduce the "annoyance" caused by KB on teams (due to it being mostly single target KB and those single targets being eliminated faster anyways..).
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In an AoE, it's a better chance to scatter than it is now, since you not only have the %chance for the secondary effect, but then the effect itself may or may not move the mob.
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Actually that means an overall lesser chance of scattering the spawn since there'd only be 1/3 the chance of knocking back rather than up or down. Not that I like the idea. I think it would look silly to have some knocked back and some pop into the air. Also, I don't think they can do mutually exclusive random power effects unless it is hard-coded into the engine as a special effect, kind of like the Fortune power from the Magic booster. So it wouldn't just be a change to the powers database.
Villains: Annie Alias, Dr. Amperical, Shade Golem, Knight Marksman
Heroes: The Clockwork Mime, Soccerpunch, The Fissioneer, Samurai Houston, Oversteer
Join The X-Patriots on Virtue!
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It's both the player and the powerset. I know people here like to go on about skill and such, but skill doesn't rearrange spawn locations or ceiling heights. If skill means knowng when NOT to use a power all you're really done is learned how to self-gimp your own damage output to avoid screwing up the team's. How is this not ALSO a powerset problem?
Fact is, there is almost no situation where I'd prefer KB to KD (or better yet, KU). And there's no good reason for "chance of" KB in AoEs. All this means is "chance to spread out the spawn" which is NEVER a good thing.
High mag knockback is FUN, I will grant. And KB is occasionally useful for positioning mobs, but it is more often a hindrance, in my experience. On my AR corr, for instance, I'd love to use Buckshot early and often, but if it spreads stuff out so Flamethrower doesn't hit them all? I end up using it last. If that sucker did knockdown instead, I'd practically put it on AUTO, and it would be more valuable. Powerset problem.
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I totally second this.
And I'd like also new enhancements that allow us to change KB into KD.
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The more random the proc is, the harder the set will be to use in a reasonable way.
If you add a chance for knockup/down, energy blasters still have to plan around the chance for knockback, because knockback will still happen sometimes.
[/ QUOTE ]
Did you not read my post?
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you just plan on a KB happening and then when its U or D you can be "pleasantly surprised"
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So yes you would have to still plan on KB but the point is that it would not be as vital to do all the time and it would also make the set more team friendly and easier for new players to pick up and not tick every body off.
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The point is that it wouldn't fix the problem. I mean, what's the argument you're making? Let's make the set only irritate your team only say, 33% of the time, rather than 75% of the time?
@Dysc, on virtue:
Virtue blues: Overnight (DP/MM), Kid Ridiculous (FC/rad), Panorama (Ill/time)
Virtue reds: Block Party (SS/SD), Goldcrush (earth/fire), Deadwire (claws/elec), Snowcrush (ice/kin)
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An attitude against Energy Blast consists of the simple habit of people to assume they are dealing with a bad powerset rather than a bad player.
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This. But people have to blame some "thing", instead of an actual person, in order for their lives' to continue safely and without confrontation.
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Oh, I'm quite happy to blame people when they are to blame but blaming an Energy Blast user for knocking things back is blaming them for using their attacks. They could certainly have "skillfully" not used an attack in an unfavorable KB situation or spent time repositioning but either way I think it's fair to lay some of the blame on perhaps the ONLY attack power side-effect in the game that CAN have a downside.
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Actually timing, choosing "not" and to pause before u strike after the teamates do certain things is being skillful
You'r mistaking not doing anything to thinking about what is right at the right moment.
Forget the fact this is a game with pretty buttons to click lol
In martial arts this is practiced quite often, timing and deciding what should follow any attack vs def move. in real life and depending on ur type of skillset for fighting you do choose not to do a particular move because your opponent is waiting for it.
Just making a point that knowing when not to do something can be a learned and valued skill lol
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The point is that it wouldn't fix the problem. I mean, what's the argument you're making? Let's make the set only irritate your team only say, 33% of the time, rather than 75% of the time?
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Well..... yes
It would help at least.........
Captain Den'Rath 53* Merk/Traps MM, Rivona 50Energy Blast/Time Cor,Victoria Von Heilwig 53* Dual Pistols/Traps Cor, Crab Spider Webguard 53* SOA, Accela 53* Bot/FF MM,Valkyrie's Executor 53* Broadsword/Shield Def Scrap. On FREEDOM! @Knight Of Bronze
"Hypocrisy, the human inherent." "Let not this work be wasted, apply yourself always."
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Actually timing, choosing "not" and to pause before u strike after the teamates do certain things is being skillful
You'r mistaking not doing anything to thinking about what is right at the right moment.
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Which is why Energy Blast is an inferior set performance-wise, because you don't have to stop to think on the others - you just do.
You mentioned martial arts, so here's a question for you - if you have to stop and think about every move and your opponent just knows they can keep going and act on trained reflex, who's going to win? And who's going to respond to a given situation faster?
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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do you think about driving and turning to avoid a collision?
do you hit your brakes? speed up?
yes and no it is a combination of reflexes, experience and skill but i do get your point on the powerset being handicapped do to the kb.
I solo'd alot with mine but i enjoy playing solo alot and kb does come in handy if soloing.
not many solutions here some people im sure like the kb too bad it couldnt be changed so that slotting n enhancements dictate kb vs kd
we can wish lol
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do you think about driving and turning to avoid a collision?
do you hit your brakes? speed up?
yes and no it is a combination of reflexes, experience and skill but i do get your point on the powerset being handicapped do to the kb.
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Eh, that's what I meant with "trained reflexes". You perform a learned action so often that it becomes a reflex to respond with it in the situation.
No, I don't think about turning, braking, or speeding up to avoid a collision unless you count (before it happens) making sure that while I'm driving I have either a direction to veer to or else good brakes.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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lol yea
just got slammed last week by state trooper he was looking down txt'n of all things but i managed to keep for being killed lol
i agree with ya nyways lunch over i gotta get back work lol
tc all
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Actually timing, choosing "not" and to pause before u strike after the teamates do certain things is being skillful
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Compared to someone who has the same attack without KB and can just fire at will, you do less damage over time. This isn't the martial arts where a single well-placed strike can end the fight. Here you win the fight when you remove all the target's hit points and any he might gain while you're busy doing that. If you're pulling punches, you're doing less damage.
That is, if you're pulling punches to avoid KB. If you're spending a litte extra time to line up a cone AoE or to let someone collect up a spawn for AoE carnage, that's different. Waiting can sometimes mean more damage. But if you're all lined up to fire an AoE and have to decide not to because it might punt someone out of a debuff cloud or -res patch or AoE rain, all you're doing is... less damage of your own. Compared to someone who doesn't have KB as a side-effect that is, and can just fire away as soon as their powers are recharged.
Villains: Annie Alias, Dr. Amperical, Shade Golem, Knight Marksman
Heroes: The Clockwork Mime, Soccerpunch, The Fissioneer, Samurai Houston, Oversteer
Join The X-Patriots on Virtue!
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Which is why Energy Blast is an inferior set performance-wise, because you don't have to stop to think on the others - you just do.
You mentioned martial arts, so here's a question for you - if you have to stop and think about every move and your opponent just knows they can keep going and act on trained reflex, who's going to win? And who's going to respond to a given situation faster?
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The only people who argue this are min/maxing dweebs. There is nothing in this game that requires such a marginal improvement in performance over Energy Blast that another blast set might have by not having to pay attention to position.
The set is fine, and in the hands of someone with half a brain and even a modicum of skill, performs as well as any other set, especially single target. AoE may be a tad weak, but the nuke is one of the safest and most fun to use in the game.
You don't have to be a min maxer to recognize that energy blast loses substantial utility in most team situations in comparison to other blast sets.
It doesn't perform as well as every other set, and saying it does doesn't make it so.
@Dysc, on virtue:
Virtue blues: Overnight (DP/MM), Kid Ridiculous (FC/rad), Panorama (Ill/time)
Virtue reds: Block Party (SS/SD), Goldcrush (earth/fire), Deadwire (claws/elec), Snowcrush (ice/kin)
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I don't think the set is that bad, if at all. I've found it useful and adjust my play style according to what I'm playing. With EB, I tend to move around more, than I would playing, say, Ice Blast. Then again, I'm not a min/max player, I play whatever feels fun to me at the time I'm playing, which is why I am always trying new combos...constantly. Otherwise, I'd get bored, but that's just me.
I'm not campaigning the set to be perfect, as no set is. But it's not the red-headed step child some folks make it out to be.
Don't I know you???
I hate it just because I do. I tried playing it several times and never got past level 10 any of those times.
I think it's butt-ugly with the Scrubbin' Bubbles animation in all the powers. I've met maybe 4 players that were competent in their knockback use and didn't send stuff flying every which way.
I have watched many new players with energy blast who just got Explosive Blast. What is the first thing they do when the tank herds stuff up to be killed? They fire Explosive Blast into the middle of the spawn. EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. Usually just before the tank reaches the spawn. Even the ones that are competent in their use of the set can't help causing chaos and occasional teamwipes once in a while. That is a sign of a poorly designed set when a GOOD player still does bad things because the set's design forces them to. Knockback into walls is one thing, but what about when there are no walls? Don't get me wrong, knockback has it's uses, and is a good way to keep yourself alive, but to have knockback in every power of an entire set is just ridiculous.
I just plain don't like it. It's my personal opinion, which I am entitled to, and I don't ask that anyone agree with me if they don't want to. And I don't see that opinion ever changing, at least as long as the set remains unchanged.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
one of my first villains was NRG/Therm corr. I got him to 50 not really knowing that knockback was a bad thing, thinking it was a good thing since the enemies couldn't attack if their on their [censored]. Then after a while I came to the realization that the knockback is horrible, and now I just made him a FULL therm, total support character and thats all he is. He has no IO's and will stay that way. I will only play him when we are lfm on a team and we really need a heals and buffs and debuffs.
When all hope seems to have drifted away.. and the shadows of death creep closer. Do not fear or cower.. do not make peace or seek salvation. For I will be there, supporting your movement. So give me your pain, weakness, despair, fear and doubt.. The Light will grant you another stand.
The only problem i have with energy blast is the kb. Its very annoying when playing any of my toons that have abilties that require an anchor eg. Radiation or Dark miasma. Plus its terrible if your in a heavy aoe group, takes the life right out of the aoe. They need to get rid of kb and just make it KD =D.
Greetings,
As someone with 3 lvl 50 characters using energy blast (Dominator, Blaster, and Corruptor respectively), I must say that I've read some good points in this thread regarding the pros and cons of knockback.
As such, I'd like to share my opinion regarding "the knockback issue".
In a solo environment, I personally believe that knockback is a nice form of soft control. In addition, the ragdoll physics can be very gratifying.
On a team, I try to use knockback in order to group mobs closely together (corners of rooms, walls, etc). However, in the 3 + years of doing so, I've still encountered the following -
1. asked not to use my primary (or in the case of the Dominator, my secondary)
2. kicked (because I wasn't willing to oblige them with # 1 above, even after using the strategy I listed)
3. been passed over for teaming consideration altogether
I would like to submit my own suggestion -
1. add knockdown to the energy powers
2. leave knockback on the energy powers
3. create the default percentage of #'s 1 and 2 above to ZERO percent (ie no chance of doing knockback or knockdown unless you...)
4. allow the player to slot knockback and/or knockdown enhancements to their powers as they see fit
With the option of dual builds, an energy user would still have the ability to have a "heavy-knockback solo build" AND a "heavy-knockdown team-friendly build".
Just my 2 cents.
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that effectively forces any energy blaster who wants knockback to give up one slot per power, and leaves energy otherwise without a secondary effect.
@Dysc, on virtue:
Virtue blues: Overnight (DP/MM), Kid Ridiculous (FC/rad), Panorama (Ill/time)
Virtue reds: Block Party (SS/SD), Goldcrush (earth/fire), Deadwire (claws/elec), Snowcrush (ice/kin)
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This. But people have to blame some "thing", instead of an actual person, in order for their lives' to continue safely and without confrontation.
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Bullpucky. A bad player can make a bad set much worse. But a good player can't make a bad set much better. All the skill in the world doesn't make up for the dps lost from the time taken to joust into position just to mitigate the secondary effects of your skills and cause them to NOT do what they were designed to do. From an effectiveness perspective, there's no point to taking the set - the mitigation it offers is counterproductive to general gameplay design, and circumventing that mitigation is counterproductive to the archetype design. And just think how much more effective that same good player would be on a good set!
Remove player ability from the equation and the set is still bad. Fun, and pretty, but bad. And I honestly wish people would stop sticking up for red-headed step-child powersets; that's a good way to make sure no one ever bothers to fix them.