Batman is not a Stalker. Batman is not a Scrapper. Any given comic character is not any Archetype in this game, because they have whatever capabilities and whatever weaknesses are dictated by literary need, whereas in this game strengths and weaknesses are dictated by game balance/mechanics.
Apples and oranges.
The best comics are still 10�!
My City of Heroes Blog Freedom Feature Article: "Going Rageless?"
If you only read one guide this year, make it this one.
Super Reflexes: the Golden Fox of power sets!
WARNING: I bold names.
ooooookay.. but if you were to represent the character in the game.. the CLOSEST AT would be a stalker.
Batman would likely be a Stalker/Scrapper AT hero, just as Superman would be a Tanker and Green Lantern would likely be a Defender/Blaster/Dominator type. Sure, not every hero will be easily pigeon-holed into an archetype, but you can clearly see most of the influences in the game.
Funny thing is, the apples and oranges analogy fits perfectly here (which is rare). Sure, the flavor and texture is different, but at their core, they're both fruit and thus comparable (although it's fairly easy to argue that anything is).
[ QUOTE ]
ooooookay.. but if you were to represent the character in the game.. the CLOSEST AT would be a stalker.
[/ QUOTE ]
I think the reason you got the response you did is that there was a long thread about this some time back where it was discussed to death, so to some you're pulling out a dead horse and beating it. I doubt the thread is still around since there was a recent purge but who knows.
"When in a big crowd, is often overwhelme"
Did you see the scene in Batman Begins when he drops down into the middle of an entire group of bad guys in that warehouse and beats on them all? I guess if you take into account Dark Knight he seems to be able to handle any situation though. If I were to make him in this game I'd probably go stalker though and then when the expansion hits, switch sides. Maybe that spy class has melee though. I don't know really.
Ma/Nin Stalker = Batman
Technical Batman is a Stalker who switched sides. Remember in Batman Begins where he's about to complete his training under who we discover is Ras al Gul and he refuses to kill the guy in the cage.
Also note that he wanted to kill the guy who killed his parents near the be3gining of the movie. He's totally a stalker who switched sides. In fact, I'm gonna go roll a Stalker right now!
[ QUOTE ]
"When in a big crowd, is often overwhelme"
Did you see the scene in Batman Begins when he drops down into the middle of an entire group of bad guys in that warehouse and beats on them all? I guess if you take into account Dark Knight he seems to be able to handle any situation though. If I were to make him in this game I'd probably go stalker though and then when the expansion hits, switch sides. Maybe that spy class has melee though. I don't know really.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes and my stalker can sometimes take on a group too, but he also is attacked by the mob in full panic, and is down, until he hits his escape button with his grapple gun. Just saying he is defeatable by 'normal' villians.
Plus if you play a stalker in a team, esp MA/nin you will often feel like you are outclassed, esp if with brutes and corruptors. Kind of like bats in the JL. Seriously, you have WW, GL, Flash, Supes, and.. this guy? Good thing he is smart. So that is how I play my stalker.
[ QUOTE ]
Ma/Nin Stalker = Batman
[/ QUOTE ]
He could just as easily and thematically be DM/nin. Its more punchy.
-Largo
Founder of A.G.O.N.Y. Supergroup on Victory
Member of Thought Sanctum VG on Victory
Member of St0rm Batallion SG on Guardian
[ QUOTE ]
"When in a big crowd, is often overwhelme"
Did you see the scene in Batman Begins when he drops down into the middle of an entire group of bad guys in that warehouse and beats on them all? I guess if you take into account Dark Knight he seems to be able to handle any situation though. If I were to make him in this game I'd probably go stalker though and then when the expansion hits, switch sides. Maybe that spy class has melee though. I don't know really.
[/ QUOTE ]
That was him using his Assassin's Strike on a Lieutenant without hitting Build Up first so it wouldn't one-shot him, then taking advantage of the short duration fear and tohit debuff that luckily procced on all the rest of the guys packed into that tight AoE radius. Finish the lieutenant, placate and a big money attack to drop the next minion quick, then finally hit Build Up to gnaw through the leftovers as fast as possible, hopefully before they even shake the Fear effect.
Yeah, that's exactly how my Nin/Nin would have handled it too. Textbook Stalkering there, Batman.
@Eisenzahn
GW2 - Melchior.2135
AIM - Euroclydon23
Email - scorpany@yahoo.com or <sameasmyAIM>@aol.com (for the sheer novelty of an almost 20 year old email address that hasn't been overwhelmed by spambots yet)
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ma/Nin Stalker = Batman
[/ QUOTE ]
He could just as easily and thematically be DM/nin. Its more punchy.
[/ QUOTE ]
Claws/Nin is Batman perfectly, and I think the Widow claws are not that noticable so it looks like you are punching them. Nin is perfect secondary for him.
"Yes, winning all the time can be boring."
-Knight_Chill
"It's amazing how well you can put up with endurance issues if you hide them under a large enough pile of bodies."
-Spiritchaser speaking on Dom Revamp
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ma/Nin Stalker = Batman
[/ QUOTE ]
He could just as easily and thematically be DM/nin. Its more punchy.
[/ QUOTE ]
Claws/Nin is Batman perfectly, and I think the Widow claws are not that noticable so it looks like you are punching them. Nin is perfect secondary for him.
[/ QUOTE ]
I think the final verdict in that thread from a long while back was:
Batman = Stalker
...with the runner up being a Scrapper w/Stealth+Weapons Mastery.
I think the verdict on Stalker sets in order from most to least were:
[u]DM/Nin[u] (very "punchy" like Batman, plus casts "fear" like Batman does, almost a spitting image of the Dark Knight)
[u]Claws/Nin[u] (with Widow claws to make it look more like "punching" plus Focus/Shockwave can sub as Batarangs)
[u]MA/Nin[u] (more "kicks" than most would want for Batman though)
For Scrappers is was pretty much the same primaries in order with SR as the secondary in place of */Nin, along with Stealth+Weapons Mastery.
Personally, I think that the [u]DM/Nin and Claws/Nin Stalkers[u] are definately the "closest" thing you'll find to Batman out of all the setups available to us. Once Rogue and side-switching comes to pass, it'll be even more apparent.
As stated very few comic book heroes fit nicely into the COH 5 main AT. If I had to pick anything at all to describe Batman I'd say he was an MA Scrapper with a Devices secondary from the Blaster pool. Let's face it in the comics and movies he's beaten as many villains with the multitude of toys in that utility belt as he has with sheer force. As to his "Stalker" tendancies that's more his tacical approach than his AT. Does he normally burst into a room and just start pounding on everyone? NO But unlike the Stalkers we have here he does not possess the ability to be invisible and sneak up on a foe delivering one crushing attack that defeats them either. That same tactic could easily be used by a tank, even here in game, that managed to move in behind a villain and deliver its strongest attack before said villain was aware it was a target. At that point it might take another blow or two before the villain was lights out but it would be reeling, disoriented and easy prey.
Very few classic comic book heroes mirror anything we play here exactly. Probably the closest, based on the films, would be Wolverine.. as a Claws/Regen Scrapper. CLAWS .. well duh that's obvious and from the movie Origins we can see that he even possess the ability to self rez after taking a bullet to the brain with the only mild after affect being a loss of memory.
The Hulk and Ben Grimm, along with Superman, fall into the classic Tanker role fairly well.. ton of health, able to take incredible amounts of damage and while they MAY be a little slower that some have devastating attacks that deal a ton of damage.
Sue Storm.. A Controller with Superior Invisibility and her brother Johnny is obviously a Fire Blaster... BUt okay now what catergory do you possibly put Reed Richards in? Last I checked we had no AT and no powerset that allowed anyone to stretch to any shape or size.
A Stalker, by COX definition, is a villain AT and while Batman has been known to be wanted at times by the Police he is certainly not a villain. A vigilante... yes which means he is operating outside the cut and dried definition of the law. But that is no agrument for making him a Villain AT since a vast majority of super heroes do exactly the same. Hense the whole secret identity theme we see in almost every comic. Many, Batman included, maintain their secrets as much to protect themselves from arrest as to protect loved ones. Heck even Spiderman, whiled loved by most including the Police, is considered a criminal by his own boss and frequent articles in the paper try to expose him as such.
�We�re always the good guys. In D&D, we�re lawful good. In City of Heroes we�re the heroes. In Grand Theft Auto we pay the prostitutes promptly and never hit them with a bat.� � Leonard
�Those women are prostitutes? You said they were raising money for stem cell research!� � Sheldon
[ QUOTE ]
Let's face it in the comics and movies he's beaten as many villains with the multitude of toys in that utility belt as he has with sheer force.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yup, but Batman's greatest strength has still always been his ability to "outsmart" or "outthink" his opponent. Lets face it, Superman could kill Batman with the flick of a finger (literally). Batman is a weak sack of meat pudding in the whole sense of Superman, a man who can bend several inches of solid steel with a flick of his wrist, ripping Batman in half would take almost no effort at all. So in the "comic book" sense, Batman is NOT someone who can take a severe pummeling. Sure, he can take a good beating from your average human joe's, but one good soild punch from Superman and it'd be an instant K.O. if not bodybag.
However, what Batman does have going for him, is his sheer genius, gadgets, and his ability to apply what he knows correctly against his foes. In contrast, most Stalkers cannot simply rush into a fight and expect things to go completely right for them. No. Most have to assess the situation at hand, decide on possible outcomes for actions taken, decide on possible escapes or "blan B's", and then use what they've gatherd to apply great force and attempt to win. Stalkers, for the most part, just can't rush in slugging it out like Scrappers, Brutes, or especially Tankers. They simply do not have the survivability to be as wild as that. They play, JUST like the Dark Knight himself, in just about every comic, story, or movie I've ever seen of Batman...especially the new concepts of Batman.
Batman, really is a Stalker, not a Scrapper.
Agreed Bats couldn't last a minute against the likes of Superman BUT then he doesn't face villains with that sort of super power often either does he? Joker, the Riddler, Two-Face, even Penquin are all pretty much deranged normal human beings with lots of Normal Human being henchmen... Masterminds if you will.
Can a trained Martial arts expert take on and defeat 7 or 8 opponents fairly easily and fairly quickly? Yes and in Batman Begins we see that Bruce Wayne does spend a considerable amount of time learning just those skill sets.
Is he stealthy? Heck yes and I'll even give you the Stalker mentality because he does possess gadgets and abilities that allow him to remain hidden until he is set to strike. One of the thing I always enjoyed about Batman, over Superman, was he is a planner, a strategist .. he does stalk his opponent to gather intelligence and decide the best way to go about defeating them. But as mentioned he also had no problem in Batman Begins in dropping down into the middle of a pile of henchmen and rendering them all unconscious with his MA abilities.
Actually I now view the current version of Stalkers we have as slightly less powerful scrappers with the ability to be stealth. I played them years ago before they got love and the basic tactic was Assasin Strike..and run like crazy cause your other attacks were so weak and you had just about the worst Hit points in game. When I soloed I knew exactly where the elevators or doors were so I could AS one member of a mob and run to the next floor.. wait .. then go down and use AS again. If I tried to stand and fight I'd end in hospital half the time (especially when my inspirations ran out). Now when I solo I'll use AS to cut the mob size and then stand face to face and beat what's left with very few problems.
I agree he uses stalker tactics to take out the hordes of minions.. when its one against say 30? 50? who wouldn't (Superman aside). But while he may sneak up and try to suprise the likes of the Joker or Two-Face how often have we seen him simply sneak up and knock them out ? Nope prefers to face the boss and battle it out man to man, fist to fist even when he has to know there is the very real possibility its a potential trap and more henchmen may be lurking to assist their deranged boss.
That LOL Is scrapperlock and since I have had it quite often I know what it looks like. But again very few heroes fit perfectly into any of the COH molds.. Batman is a Scrapper/Stalker/ with Blaster Devices.
Hmmmm Come to think of it ever checked out some of the builds the Devs have and wondered "Hey how'd he get that power? Its not from that powerset!" Batman is a DEV! lol
�We�re always the good guys. In D&D, we�re lawful good. In City of Heroes we�re the heroes. In Grand Theft Auto we pay the prostitutes promptly and never hit them with a bat.� � Leonard
�Those women are prostitutes? You said they were raising money for stem cell research!� � Sheldon
[ QUOTE ]
Nope prefers to face the boss and battle it out man to man, fist to fist even when he has to know there is the very real possibility its a potential trap and more henchmen may be lurking to assist their deranged boss.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yup, and in later levels, especially any level past lvl 30 and on, Stalkers cease 2-shotting bosses and instead end up dealing a very decent and well placed AS removing a good portion of HP and then "battling it out" if you will with the head honcho bossman. So in a very good sense, Batman "is" still doing a stand-up Battle with most head honcho bosses after lvl 30 and up, especially when it comes to EB's, simply because we cannot do enough damage to 1 or 2 shot these mobs at those levels. Instead you find yourself "scrapping it out" with them, and as you said, since the relatively recent changes to Stalkers they are ALOT better at "scrapping" than they were originally. Now, they can actually "scrap."
Thanks to those changes, they have, in my mind, really transformed Stalkers into what I would consider to be the "closest" form of Batman. The ONLY thing I think Stalkers really lack is the Weapons Mastery power pool that Scrappers have access to. If Rogue allows us to switch our Stalkers from "villains" to "heroes" and allows us access to a "Weapons Mastery" pool similar to what Scrappers get...I think it's definately no contest hands down that Batman = Stalker heh. So yea, my fingers are definately crossed for Rogue in that department lol
I'd say if any comics characters fit the CoX mould best, it's most of the various X-Men cast. Storm is (obviously) a Storm/Elec Defender, Jean is a Grav/Psi troller, and we all know Wolverine...
As for Batman, I always enjoy this argument/discussion, it gets very interesting. I'd say that each different incarnation of Batman has a different fighting style to represent. I still agree that Batman is a Stalker in most versions- let's face it, with some RP and careful mission choices, you could easily play a superhero who happens to fight crime in the Rogue Isles.
Batman: TAS and Justice League strike me as having a Dark/Nin Stalker, especially considering how Batman works with the rest of the League. (Superman has powers toned down here too, so he's often more of a Tanker) He uses gadgets, circumstances and theatrics to unnerve his enemies as he fights them. (Terry McGinnis of Batman Beyond is totally a Scrapper though, with stealth)
The Batman on the other hand, comes off as more of a Martial Arts user, maybe just because of the animesque style. (Robin in Teen Titans is THE MA/SR Scrapper)
Good ol' Adam West, on the other hand, seems like much more of a Scrapper, maybe even a Tanker.
Why would anyone give SUPER Reflexes to Robin or Batman? They don't have any super powers, they're agile but they can't bullet-time dodge stuff. Gee, what kind of defense set would a natural themed character with no superpowers have... Maybe... Willpower?
[ QUOTE ]
Why would anyone give SUPER Reflexes to Robin or Batman? They don't have any super powers, they're agile but they can't bullet-time dodge stuff. Gee, what kind of defense set would a natural themed character with no superpowers have... Maybe... Willpower?
[/ QUOTE ]
Wow...ya know what, I'd have to agree here somewhat.
Batman could DEFINATELY be a Dark/WP Stalker as well...
-WP has "decent" defenses with HS, enough to avoid some damage, but not almost all (as stated, Batman isn't Neo..)
-WP also has MoB...which imho represents a "bullet proof" vest (Batman does wear body armor to protect from bullets...)
-WP has HPT...which can represent his increased ability to deal with large amounts of "pain", something he developed over his years of training (Furthermore, HPT also has +res to other damage types, and can further represent more forms of body armor...which he does wear).
-WP also has IW...Batman is not easily manipulated through the mind, due to his intelligence and vigorous training.
-WP also has SoW...which during "high stress" times, can represent Batman reaching deep within himself to overcome the odds, something many Super Heroes do from time to time when faced with overwhelming opposition.
The only powers that don't really fit the theme easily are Recon, FH, and Resurgence...but, with a little imagination they can work too lol.
-FH could simply represent Batmans ability to forget about damage applied to him and tough it through
-Recon could represent a simple "med pack" of some sort that Batman could apply to himself as needed when taking too much damage.
-Resurgence is pretty easy to explain...there have been MANY times in comics/movies/books/etc where the hero has been pretty much beaten into the dirt...and then by some miracle of absolute willpower, they rise back to their feet more angry and stronger than ever and ready to lay the SMACK DOWN on the guy(s) that just stomped them lol. Heck, Matrix part 1 has a perfect example of that, as do most every Kung-Fu/Anime movie ever written lol.
So uh...yea...I do have to say that WP could DEFINATELY make it as a Batman secondary, for sure. Heck, come to think of it, if it had more "toys/tools" (such as caltrops, etc) It'd definately beat out */Nin as the secondary of choice for the Batman.
So, I'd have to say that Batman is either a:
Dm/Nin or Dm/WP Stalker
or
Claws/Nin or Claws/WP Stalker (<---Claws with WP give you some of the "toys" you miss with WP, like Batarangs! )
[ QUOTE ]
Why would anyone give SUPER Reflexes to Robin or Batman? They don't have any super powers, they're agile but they can't bullet-time dodge stuff. Gee, what kind of defense set would a natural themed character with no superpowers have... Maybe... Willpower?
[/ QUOTE ]
You must not remember the time before Willpower when Super Reflexes was the go-to for Natural themes.
And Robin's a former acrobat and even more of a mobile martial artist than Batman, I think SR fits very well. Maybe Willpower does too though, Teen Titans Robin was pretty damn hot blooded.
[ QUOTE ]
A Stalker, by COX definition, is a villain AT
[/ QUOTE ]
Show me in the AT description where it says that this AT is a villain or evil. Just because it is in CoV doesn't mean that you have to be a Villain, I have some undercover heroes in the Rouge Isles. And personally if I were going to create a Batman type toon I would want him to be in the Rouge Isles as it fits the Batman Begins background setting.
Edit: Batman could be considered a reformed Villain, remember in the Movie he was arrested for theiving, and learned most of his fighting techniques and skills from the Bad Guys.
[ QUOTE ]
Jean is a Grav/Psi troller
[/ QUOTE ]
I am sure you meant Dominator.
And Wolverine is more of a Brute than a Scrapper by definition and description.
Edit 2: Yes I know there are no Claws/Regen Brutes though. And again I point out that Wolverine worked for the bad guys before being good.
"Yes, winning all the time can be boring."
-Knight_Chill
"It's amazing how well you can put up with endurance issues if you hide them under a large enough pile of bodies."
-Spiritchaser speaking on Dom Revamp
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Jean is a Grav/Psi troller
[/ QUOTE ]
I am sure you meant Dominator.
[/ QUOTE ]
Agree whole heartedly here. And Dark Phoenix was her respec into Perma-Dom!
I am the 99%. Occupy the World.
Minister of Infinity's Secret Police, Official Mooch of dUmb and League, Official Purveyor of Free Straws, the Most Interesting Man in the World.
http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes
Yeah people get caught up on the name city of villains to much,especially since they have already announce side switching, and at the same time have no clue about how they are talking about. As I said in the last thread, Batman is based on a villain, he used to shoot people with guns to kill/maim them. Even in modern incarnation he is a anti-hero, after all what hero tortures people to get information. If people insist that just because stalkers are villains because they come from the Rogue Isle, then they really need to look at Batman more closely, after all he breaks more laws then my stalker does.
Dirges
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why would anyone give SUPER Reflexes to Robin or Batman? They don't have any super powers, they're agile but they can't bullet-time dodge stuff. Gee, what kind of defense set would a natural themed character with no superpowers have... Maybe... Willpower?
[/ QUOTE ]
You must not remember the time before Willpower when Super Reflexes was the go-to for Natural themes.
And Robin's a former acrobat and even more of a mobile martial artist than Batman, I think SR fits very well. Maybe Willpower does too though, Teen Titans Robin was pretty damn hot blooded.
[/ QUOTE ]
Before WP I would have given Batman Invuln due to the body armor and Robin, yeah I'd go with Super Reflexes.
I was thinking, Batman (in this incarnation and really the comics for the most part too) is a stalker.
Follow me here:
Comparatively low hitpoints. Sneak attack single take downs. When in a big crowd, is often overwhelmed. Studies ninjitsu. I think he would be an MA/Ninjitsu stalker.
I also say villian side, because he is hunted by the police. Most of redside is spent attacking villian groups and getting harrassed by rogue isle police.
your thoughts?