NPCs: Volume Vs. Difficulty (Which is Better?)

Seems a simple question, right? But after eavesdropping on a pick-up group the other night, maybe not so much.


Regarding NPCs in the average mission setting (and let's ignore XP values for the moment as this isn't a "farming" discussion), which perception are folks looking to experience most:


- more volume/numbers of weak NPCs to burn through quickly

or

- a few "tough" NPC's that take a decent amount of time to defeat


?

---

[ QUOTE ]
Seems a simple question, right? But after eavesdropping on a pick-up group the other night, maybe not so much.


Regarding NPCs in the average mission setting (and let's ignore XP values for the moment as this isn't a "farming" discussion), which perception are folks looking to experience most:


- more volume/numbers of weak NPCs to burn through quickly

or

- a few "tough" NPC's that take a decent amount of time to defeat


?

[/ QUOTE ]


More volume/numbers of tough NPC's

---

Depends entirely on the character I'm playing, the mood I'm in, and the team I'm on.

If I'm playing a violent, hot-headed character then more is better. As I just charge through their ranks proving my superiority and awesomeness (in character)

If I'm on a more thoughtful, tactically driven character: Less is better. It's better to use single target holds and confuses on harder opponents, and it can lead to titanic battles of will and fortitude, especially if we're debuff light.

And of course what the -team- wants is very important. If most of the team likes the singular challenge we'll hunt for EBs and AVs. If they prefer an easy walk-through we'll drop to Unyielding or lower.

Though there are others who prefer to weigh in on risk versus reward. Enemies on Invincible (Challenge level 5) drop the most XP/Inf on a per character basis. On Challenge level 4 you fight more foes who drop less XP individually, but there are more of them, yielding greater XP/Drops overall.

-Rachel-

---

If we are talking about a subjective amount of fun, then i like mowing down big groups of minions and lieuts, it just feels super to me, hell, id take a mode where they tripled the spawns and disabled the exp, just to see the bodies fly when rian gets going, or a minor forest grow when vio hits creepers, vines and roots. that would be the reward, bugger exp.

edit: and no, fighting greys doesn't count, i want to be able to die in the fight, just not likely.

---

More weak guys. Making one archvillain keel over will never compare to seeing that perfect cone just crumple from Full Auto or something.

---

Having Vengeance and Fallout slotted for recharge means never having to say you're sorry.

Personally, I prefer wading hip-deep through a sea of mobs to taking on small groups of ultra-tough stuff, because it makes me feel powerful. Especially when i'm either hanging on by a thread or just plowing through them. (Sometimes it's nice to have that edgy challenge, and other times I just wanna be an uberwench.)

---

"It depends."

Depends on AT, mood, team makeup (if on a team,) enemies we're fighting, and a host of other things. Even with the same character, sometimes I'll want a horde to fight through, other times a reasonably easy pace or some other reason for smaller, bite-size groups.

A pile of Hellions, f'rinstance, is a whole different proposition than a group of Carnies, Tsoo, Malta, or Knives. And don't forget the fun when we had Earth Thorn Casters piling up quicksand under our feet.

---

the more carnage, the more fun.

---

The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.

My City Was Gone

Going to jump on the "depends" bandwagon.

For Masterminds, I love big groups of foes. Ruthless (CL 4) is my chosen difficulty. I want huge battles, not my gang beating the snot out of one guy who just doesn't have the smarts to stay down.

For aoe characters, gotta go with more baddies again.

For single target killers, like stalkers and some brutes, I'd prefer the tougher but fewer approach of Relentless (CL 5).

There are exceptions, but thats it in general.

Some times it's all about quantity, others quality.

---

I'd like to see the Devs play around with the mission spawns more - solo mobs of 3 minions or 1 minion and a lieutenant can get very predictable, and being vastly outnumbered and still winning is always fun.

Personally if I see a 10 strong mob of even cons or (depending on the character) +1s, I'm always tempted to dive in and see if I can take them all down.

Happily my level 36 scrapper has just discovered the Abandoned Sewer Network

---

I am a fan of high difficulty levels in all games, so I'd take high volumes of tough foes. I love a challenge. Easy foes......I just don't get the appeal.

---

http://www.seventhsanctum.com/index-anim.php
Can't come up with a name? Click the link!

[ QUOTE ]

Personally if I see a 10 strong mob of even cons or (depending on the character) +1s, I'm always tempted to dive in and see if I can take them all down.


[/ QUOTE ]

Oh yeah I do that sort of thing all the time. Love the big groups of Freakshow in St. Martial, for example. You can get groups of 10 easily there.

Sometimes you surprise yourself with exactly what you can handle. Those are the shining moments of the game for me.

---

For me, the distinction is always simple - many weak enemies to form the bulk of the resistance throughout the story, and then a single tough enemy, or a series of single tough enemies at the very end.

If every fight is a boss battle, that makes the hero seem weak by comparison. When every mook is a boss, then the hero is barely as strong as the average mook. It's much more impressive to have the hero tear through hordes of faceless supergoons, only to be matched by a single hard enemy. This lends both the hero much more credence by displaying his prowess, and it lends the villain much more credence by having him be able to take a hero who's torn through so many mooks one-on-one.

In my opinion, difficulty should always be a plot device and never a status quo. Not unless you're making some kind of survival horror, which this game most decidedly is not.

---

Give me tons of NPCs and I'm enjoying myself.

Make them difficult and we have a deal

---

[ QUOTE ]
I'd like to see the Devs play around with the mission spawns more - solo mobs of 3 minions or 1 minion and a lieutenant can get very predictable, and being vastly outnumbered and still winning is always fun.

Personally if I see a 10 strong mob of even cons or (depending on the character) +1s, I'm always tempted to dive in and see if I can take them all down.

Happily my level 36 scrapper has just discovered the Abandoned Sewer Network

[/ QUOTE ]

/this.

Aside from hopping in, eclipse/mire/nuke with my 'shade... last night, a friend and I were doing the Dirge of Chaos mission. My sonic/sonic, his emp/energy. Pulled one spawn of Freakshow, had another come along. Freakshow rezzing, and I believe a patrol - *lots* of freaks to fight, and he's SKd to me, so they're at least +2 to him. Regular freakshow convention - I wasn't slotted up, really, and he was too low for SOs. (17/18 at the time.)

Good fight, dont' think either of us got under half-health, and at the end of it, a pause and then "I don't believe we survived that" from him.

Or doing the... think it was ice mistral SF, with the cave room at the end, my brute and another being the only ones standing and just fighting off the mobs 'til we were finally overcome several minutes after the rest of the team and getting cheered on by them. (Again, LOTS of mobs.)

Great fun.

---

The Fifth Column Oroborous 'TF'.

Last room. Fighting off ALL of those Ambushes while fighting Maestro, Requiem, -and- Vandal on their little platform. 1 SR scrapper, 2 Regens. We survived by the skin of our teeth through the Triple AV Aggro, then spent a good 4 minutes fighting back against all the ambush waves. Both Regens died at least three times before we all went down.

AWESOME fight. =-3

-Rachel-

---

back in a day herding (REAL herding) wolves was fun, not just for the xp, but for the thought of staying one step ahead of serious pain and being able to outwit my foes and lead them to their doom.

that and as one teammate put it, it looked like a Benny Hill chase scene.

---

I'm with Samuel_Tow et al, give me loads of mooks to mow down (especially ones described in the third paragraph there), sprinkled with the occasional tougher foe, and I am a happy gamer. If there was a setting just below Heroic/Villainous, called CRUSHKILLDESTROY maybe, with large spawns of blues and greens, I'd stay there pretty much all the time, cackling madly as I rampage. (And no, I wouldn't get bored, I still fire up Diablo 2 and Painkiller to this day, just for the sake of throwing Frozen Orbs or firing Shurikens, respectively.)

It's been suggested that there be a much more prevalent use of the Underling type enemies for just this sort of long-day-at-work-and-I-just-want-to-chill-out-violently type of player, and I for one approve.

---

[ QUOTE ]
The Fifth Column Oroborous 'TF'.

Last room. Fighting off ALL of those Ambushes while fighting Maestro, Requiem, -and- Vandal on their little platform. 1 SR scrapper, 2 Regens. We survived by the skin of our teeth through the Triple AV Aggro, then spent a good 4 minutes fighting back against all the ambush waves. Both Regens died at least three times before we all went down.

AWESOME fight. =-3

-Rachel-

[/ QUOTE ]

We did it with 1 brute and 1 /kin Corr.
it *was* a great fight!

---

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The Fifth Column Oroborous 'TF'.

Last room. Fighting off ALL of those Ambushes while fighting Maestro, Requiem, -and- Vandal on their little platform. 1 SR scrapper, 2 Regens. We survived by the skin of our teeth through the Triple AV Aggro, then spent a good 4 minutes fighting back against all the ambush waves. Both Regens died at least three times before we all went down.

AWESOME fight. =-3

-Rachel-

[/ QUOTE ]

We did it with 1 brute and 1 /kin Corr.
it *was* a great fight!

[/ QUOTE ]

Squeeeeeeeeee! Sounds awesome! Fulcrum Shift FTW? =-3

Damn... With the Brute Damage Cap and the MASSIVE spawns of enemies, there, you must've been throwing around HUGE damage numbers! O.O

-Rachel-

---

I'll take "As Many As I Can Handle" for a thousand, Alex.

---

"City of Heroes. April 27, 2004 - August 31, 2012. Obliterated not with a weapon of mass destruction, not by an all-powerful supervillain... but by a cold-hearted and cowardly corporate suck-up."

[ QUOTE ]
I'll take "As Many As I Can Handle" for a thousand, Alex.

[/ QUOTE ]

I mentioned this on the dom boards.

lvl 25 Plant/thorn vs Scrapyard's followers (who con from white to orange.)

End result was something around 300 defeats on their part... to one on mine. (Yay, close source for Lucks.)

It's even more amusing when I dinged and got my creepers. Revenge for what they did to my masterminds!

---

<QR>

For me, I'm on the 'It Depends' as well.

Most times I'm running solo or duoed w/my GF. So I see a modest mix of spawns.

Now we (both 22s; Grav/Storm 'Troller (me) & Dark/NRG Defender (GF)) were running the 'Defeat all Council on Ship' for Ms. Peebles with a 22 Illusion/FF 'Troller PuGing with us. We enter the ship and it's masses and masses of even conned minions. The GF and I faceplant once each about 2/3 through the run , not bad considering. But I swear I now have a new hatered for Council marksmen.

Thank you for the time...

---

Arc 5299: Magic, Mystery, and Mayhem Updated!! 09/15/09

In a perfect world, both. However, a fewer number of higher level enemies provide a dispurportionately greater challenge due to the (sometimes irritating) nature of relative level scaling in this game. Thus, as far as fun goes, they are preferable.

---

[ QUOTE ]
It's been suggested that there be a much more prevalent use of the Underling type enemies for just this sort of long-day-at-work-and-I-just-want-to-chill-out-violently type of player, and I for one approve.

[/ QUOTE ]

I once made a long post in the Suggestions forum where I went down the list of enemy factions and suggested adding Underlings to all of them to pad spawn sizes up to 8-man-team levels even when solo, with the understanding that said underlings would be pathetic cannon fodder. The general idea was to add unpowered or underpowered versions of more common enemies. Say, in the 30s and 40s when the Freakshow are mostly Stunners and Shockers, Enforcers and Metal Freaks, throwing in a few punks with axes and clubs to act as underling sounds like a good idea. Or Arachnos could retain their Wolf Spiders post-20 to act as Underlings. Or the Sky Raiders could employ unarmoured soldiers with light weapons or only small arms. The Nemesis Army could always have miniature versions of (the already miniature) Jaegers and soldiers in light armour with pistols, and then later the soldiers with the single-shot bolt-action rifles could fill the same function in the 40s and up. The Council are easy. Post-20, the regular soldiers would become Underlings. Post 30, the Elites would serve that purpose and probably retain their function. Post-40, we could even add the Ubermenschen to that. Err... Cor Leonis, whatever. The CoT have plenty of low-grade Casters and Wielders who could remain as Underlings, rather than outright no longer spawning. And that's not even looking at all the factions that already HAVE Underlings which rarely if ever come into play.

The list is easy to put together, and while I'm not sure how easy it would be to actually put into action (I'm thinking fairly simple, but a LOT of work), it's still something that I would very much like to see. With Underlings supposedly posing little to no danger (one-shot health, pathetic damage, no status effects) and spawn sizes never overcapping what an 8-man team is already facing (presumably, towards the upper limit of graphical intensity, but well within capacity), I'd say the game would at least look and feel a lot more impressive and our characters a LOT stronger.

I've always been a firm believer in retaining old enemies as factions move up in level, but demoting them in rank. For example, Crey Security Agents start out as lieutenants in the 30s, but drop to minions in the 35-45 range. Cryo and Voltaic Tanks start out as lieutenants and Power Tanks as bosses, but post 45 Cryo and Voltaic Tanks become minions and Power Tanks lieutenants, with the boss role filled exclusively by Elite Paragon Protectors. Aside from the workload of actually making it happen, what reason is there for this NOT to be the case for all enemy groups?

---