City of Heroes Going Rogue - FAQ - Discussion
By
7thCynic,
Posted on: 2009-05-12 08:06 in News, Events and Announcement Discussion
people like information.
accurate information brings stability and comfort.
then again, that requires open and active communication.
Ignoring anyone is a mistake. You might miss something viral to your cause.
Please, feel free to reexamine your opinion at any time
Spines is a ranged scrapper set. Claws already has ranged attacks in it. The precedent has already been set. Throwing the word "stupid" around about a shorter range version of Dual Pistols for Scrappers doesn't make any sense considering that 2 Scrapper sets already contain ranged attacks
Simply because you can't wrap your head around a concept doesn't make it "stupid" 
There is no such thing as an "innocent bystander"
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Please, feel free to reexamine your opinion at any time
Spines is a ranged scrapper set. Claws already has ranged attacks in it. The precedent has already been set. Throwing the word "stupid" around about a shorter range version of Dual Pistols for Scrappers doesn't make any sense considering that 2 Scrapper sets already contain ranged attacks
Simply because you can't wrap your head around a concept doesn't make it "stupid"
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Unless your definition of "attack" includes Confront, only 2 of the 9 powers in Spines and Claws are ranged. What you see as precedent, I see as exceptions to the rule. Under the criteria you've embraced, your dual pistols attack set would only have a maximum of 2 ranged attacks? I'm sorry but I think that would be thematically - forgive the word - stupid. Now, if you're suggesting that it should have more than 2 ranged attacks, I must ask what would be your justification for having one powerset in an AT that is a complete exception to normal standards?
I'm as much a fan as Equilibrium's action as anyone but there is nothing in that movie that is inherently thematic to the comic book genre. If you want to shoot guns and be in melee, push for proliferation of Martial Arts to a blaster secondary and get to blapping. With some fairly minor modifications, MA would have enough damage mitigation (knockback, stuns, and immobilizations) to work as a blaster secondary without tossing all the rules out the window. Energy Manipulation has 5 melee attacks. Electricity has 6 melee or point-blank attacks. Fire, counting the toggles, has 7. Which do you think works better within the scope of the existing powersets?
Or do you just want to have lots of ranged damage with a scrapper's defenses? I can see the appeal but it wouldn't really be all that fair, would it?
EDITED to correct a mistaken statement. See next response.
Attache
Attache @ deviantART
Attache's Anti-401k Art Collection
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... Claws already has ranged attacks in it. ...
[/ QUOTE ]Unless your definition of "attack" includes Confront for some inexplicable reason, the plural does not fit in your description of claws. ...
[/ QUOTE ]Point of contention: Focus and Shockwave are both ranged. One is single-target (40ft.) and one is a cone (30ft.).
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Originally Posted by Dispari
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.
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Even still, it's as Attache pointed out, that's two out of nine attacks. It's an exception to the rules, not a precedent. And either way, I'll say it again: Guns are inherently a ranged weapon, and scrappers are melee. Unless you intend to have a set were you go around slapping people with your gun 7 different ways and maybe firing off one or two shots (which would still be ridiculously and unrealistically short ranged) then it just doesn't make sense at all.
We already have pistols for masterminds with thugs just like dark blast for zombies. It's a ranged set by nature and the whole pull of the idea was to make it into a full set based around the moves that are already there, just fleshed out to a full powerset in it's own right. I will however agree that MA proliferated to a blaster secondary could work just swimmingly and I'd very happily make a DP/MA blaster. That concept can work well, a gun-slinger with martial arts training in the event he runs out of ammo or is forced into a melee situation. A melee fighter who shoots people... isn't a melee fighter, he's a gun-fighter.
Anyway, like I said, this is just my two cents. I'm not re-examining my opinion on this, not because I think I'm right and you're wrong, but because it's an opinion. I think it's an idiotic notion, and you don't. And you're entitled to that, I'm just pointing out why I think so.
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... Claws already has ranged attacks in it. ...
[/ QUOTE ]Unless your definition of "attack" includes Confront for some inexplicable reason, the plural does not fit in your description of claws. ...
[/ QUOTE ]Point of contention: Focus and Shockwave are both ranged. One is single-target (40ft.) and one is a cone (30ft.).
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I appreciate the correction. I will edit my original post as I don't think the information invalidates my overall point.
Attache
Attache @ deviantART
Attache's Anti-401k Art Collection
First off, let me say that I don't, also, really understand the idea of a Pistol Scrapper. However, if said pistols were to have a blade or some-such on the bottom, so they become "Dual Blades (with or without the combos) with two ranged 'shots'" it would become _much_ more thematically appealing to me. But that's just my thought process. 
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Now, we fast forward nearly a year later, when GvE came out. This was when they 'bundled' both games in one box, and also announced that you no longer needed to by 'both sides' but that only one game was needed, INCLUDING the original CoH or CoV releases. Any boxed Co* game gave you full access after this point.
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Nope, this did not happen at the same time. GvE came out in stores LONG before the change so that you only needed one of the games to play both.
At the time GvE came out it was a special deal that allowed you to buy both games togeather for the price of one. This would give you both CoH and CoV without buying them sepreately because they were both sold in a box set not because the game was changed so you didn't have to.
At the time GvE first came out people who only had CoH would still only be able to play CoH and people who ONLY had CoV would still ONLY be able to play CoV. I'm preddy sure GvE came out only 2 or 3 months after CoV.
It was only some time within the last couple years that they announced anyone who still had not paid for both games could now have one for free.
To put it simply anyone who bought GvE still technically paid to play both games they just didn't buy them seperatly because they got the box set.
Anyone who had CoH at the time if they never bought CoV or the GvE could not play the villain side because they only had heroes.
For me, I had CoH allready and bought CoV when it first came out. I got my brother playing a couple months later when GvE first came out and to save him some money I got him to buy the GvE eddition rather than buying them seperatly like I did. He still bought both games, at a cheaper price but he did buy them.
Now if he started playing today and didn't even pay for one of the games, that's a little different than buying them both togeather.
Here's a comparison for ya. I'll use the Star Wars movies. You buy all 6 of the movies seperatly and probly spend about $20 per DvD. You find out later that a friend bought the box sets and got all 6 movies for $30. Then later both of you find other people who hadn't paid for all the movies were now being sent copies of all the movies they didn't allready own.
If you buy the movies seperatly you're not only spending money on the movies themselfs but allso on Gas to get to and from the store.
You buy the boxed sets, again, that's money out of your pocket to buy all 6 movies.
The last one, they wouldn't even need to go to the store to get the other 5 movies, they'd just have them without needing to do anything.
That's basically what they did with the game. All of the sudden everyone just had both games weather or not they actully took the time to go to the store, buy both games, and download both games.
It's not even just money for the games but the time you spent upgradeing your account sence anyone who only had one version when they did that would not have to do anything or spend any extra money to get the other game, just log on as normal and hey look at that there it is, a game I never bought or loaded.
It's basically rewarding people for doing absolutly nothing.
Hell some of the special stuff that comes with special boxed sets are now becomming Veteran rewards like the Arachnos Helmets. Anyone who allready had the helmets would then get nothing for their vet reward and will of paid for the helmets they could of got for free. Pluse spending the time to upgrade their account for each helmet. (as I recall the helmets were originally store exsclusives that would require you to buy 4 different pre order CoV games from 4 different stores to get all 4 helmets. which I never did and I'm glad for it.)
Again Rial, this is all happening a couple of YEARS after the fact. (And yes some people got ticked about the vet helmets until they realized that you'd have to be subscribed for 4 years to earn them, so anyone who gets them has well and truly earned it.)
If you're that bent out of shape get out of the discussion for Going Rogue and go make a thread in another forum where we don't have to skip over your gigantic, mis-spelled wall of text to continue with the discussion at hand. Thank you.
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Hell some of the special stuff that comes with special boxed sets are now becomming Veteran rewards like the Arachnos Helmets. Anyone who allready had the helmets would then get nothing for their vet reward and will of paid for the helmets they could of got for free. Pluse spending the time to upgrade their account for each helmet. (as I recall the helmets were originally store exsclusives that would require you to buy 4 different pre order CoV games from 4 different stores to get all 4 helmets. which I never did and I'm glad for it.)
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Nobody paid any extra to get those helmets when they were initially offered. They were bonuses for pre-ordering. Also, you could only apply one of the codes to a single account, so buying all 4 would have been a serious waste of money. So, anyone who already had one of those helmets on their account still got all the others, just the same as the Prestige Sprint vet reward.
Oh, and GvE came out almost a year after CoV, and the change to allow all accounts that only had one or the other game to access both was another year later, so 2 years after CoV. If they do make the expansion available to all 2 years down the road, I'd still be happy to have paid up to $50 to get access to that stuff for those 2 years, but that's just me.
"I wish my life was a non-stop Hollywood movie show,
A fantasy world of celluloid villains and heroes."
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Even still, it's as Attache pointed out, that's two out of nine attacks. It's an exception to the rules, not a precedent. And either way, I'll say it again: Guns are inherently a ranged weapon, and scrappers are melee.
[/ QUOTE ]I never said I was for or against melee pistols in that post. I was merely pointing out Attache's mistake. That's why I ONLY responded to the mistake, and not to the general theme of the post.
(For the record, I am against pistol scrappers/etc)
Paragon Wiki: http://www.paragonwiki.com
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Mids Hero Designer: http://www.cohplanner.com
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Dispari
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.
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Even still, it's as Attache pointed out, that's two out of nine attacks. It's an exception to the rules, not a precedent. And either way, I'll say it again: Guns are inherently a ranged weapon, and scrappers are melee.
[/ QUOTE ]I never said I was for or against melee pistols in that post. I was merely pointing out Attache's mistake. That's why I ONLY responded to the mistake, and not to the general theme of the post.
(For the record, I am against pistol scrappers/etc)
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Just so you know, I got where you were going. Thanks again!
Attache
Attache @ deviantART
Attache's Anti-401k Art Collection
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For it to ring at a different price, it has to have a different UPC. For it to have a different UPC, it has to be a different item. What you will most frequently see at the front of a store are promotional/feature-laden versions of movies, while the less expensive, non-exclusive, feature-lite versions are kept with the bulk of the movies.
If the two things rang at different prices, they were not the same item. There's no magic tag that registers can use to tell what part of a store the same exact item came from.
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They were the same item. Yes DvDs do tend to come out in different versions, some with more special features than others. This was not the case in that it was just two different versions of the same movie why do you think I went through so much trouple to enthisize that they were the same item?
As for the "magic tag" that tells what part of the store they came from, yes it is possible the same way they mark down items from their original price. What do you think thoughs price guns are for that they carrey around the store, they place new UPC stickers over the original ones.
All they would have to do is place a different UPC sticker on sertain DvD copies and then leave the rest of them with the standard price tags.
Honestly, I was just taking exception to words like "Stupid" and now "Idiotic". Why use denigrating words to try and hurt people who don't agree with you?
The whole 80' range thing for pistols in CoX is silly to begin with. Most people who train to use pistols only expect to be accurate out to 20' to 30', and even they would prefer to use the weapon at as short a range as possible.
and I voted for Psi Melee in the old poll long ago anyway 
There is no such thing as an "innocent bystander"
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Honestly, I was just taking exception to words like "Stupid" and now "Idiotic". Why use denigrating words to try and hurt people who don't agree with you?
The whole 80' range thing for pistols in CoX is silly to begin with. Most people who train to use pistols only expect to be accurate out to 20' to 30', and even they would prefer to use the weapon at as short a range as possible.
and I voted for Psi Melee in the old poll long ago anyway
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While I get that the range for pistols in this game might not be realistic, I also think an unrealistic range fits into the genre nicely. Even "normal" heroes and villains in comics are regularly shown doing things that would be otherwise impossible. I just can't get in a bind about pistol ranges being too much in superhero game.
I'd like to have a normal option for blasters besides Devices so I would love to see Martial Arts get proliferation to being a blaster secondary. I think it could be a nice compliment for those primary powers that don't have "matching" secondaries like AR and sonic. The powers night have to be tweaked a little but I know it could work.
Attache
Attache @ deviantART
Attache's Anti-401k Art Collection
What are you talking about now?
Maybe I missunderstood something in the last 2 posts but the basic gist of it seemed to be that it's unrealistic for ranged weapons to have range?
So what, the bullets just drop mid air if they don't hit anything in melee range in whatever world you live in?
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Maybe I missunderstood (sic) something in the last 2 posts...
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This.
Although we are incorrectly using range synonymously with accuracy. I think BigFish's point is that the range given for pistols in the Thugs MM powerset is unrealistic in that they wouldn't be terribly accurate at maximum ranges. My assertion is that characters, even powerless ones, do all kinds of wildly improbable things in comic books. Neither BigFish nor myself were suggesting that ranged weapons don't have range and it's kind of a stretch to get that out of what was written.
Attache
Attache @ deviantART
Attache's Anti-401k Art Collection
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Maybe I missunderstood (sic) something in the last 2 posts...
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This.
Although we are incorrectly using range synonymously with accuracy. I think BigFish's point is that the range given for pistols in the Thugs MM powerset is unrealistic in that they wouldn't be terribly accurate at maximum ranges. My assertion is that characters, even powerless ones, do all kinds of wildly improbable things in comic books. Neither BigFish nor myself were suggesting that ranged weapons don't have range and it's kind of a stretch to get that out of what was written.
Attache
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My thinking was back a few pages ago when someone sugested Pistols as a Melee powerset.
I get what you're saying about accuracy but that would be true for ALL ranged weapons not just pistols. However accuracy would change varring on how good the shooter's eye sight is, what kind of targeting equipment is attached to their spicific weapon, and so on.
The lasers with eye sights pistols would be far more accurate than the standard models in real life but in game the styal of pistol you're useing doesn't change a damn thing.
Personally I think the styal would be more inaccurate than distance issues.
You need to take into account that pistols and rifles are two very different types of weapons:
Rifles have long barrels and use large charges of powder in their cartridges. Because of the greater power behind the bullet and more spin imparted by the long barrel, a rifle can be accurate up to a kilometer +
Pistols have short barrels and use heavier bullets with less powder in the cartridge. eyesight and targeting equipment can not overcome gravity. For all intents and purposes, a pistol is basically a melee weapon because it is only effective at close range.
Look it up 
There is no such thing as an "innocent bystander"
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I'd like to have a normal option for blasters besides Devices so I would love to see Martial Arts get proliferation to being a blaster secondary. I think it could be a nice compliment for those primary powers that don't have "matching" secondaries like AR and sonic. The powers night have to be tweaked a little but I know it could work.
Attache
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This would be sweet and very much along the lines I've been thinking. It would allow those people who want Pistols to also have their melee as well.
I doubt many people would frown upon a Pistol/MA blaster as a decent way to make a John Preston clone/homage. Then again people can be fickle.
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You need to take into account that pistols and rifles are two very different types of weapons:
Rifles have long barrels and use large charges of powder in their cartridges. Because of the greater power behind the bullet and more spin imparted by the long barrel, a rifle can be accurate up to a kilometer +
Pistols have short barrels and use heavier bullets with less powder in the cartridge. eyesight and targeting equipment can not overcome gravity. For all intents and purposes, a pistol is basically a melee weapon because it is only effective at close range.
Look it up
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It doesn't matter normal max range for a ranged attack is about 80ft, getting hit with a bullet at that distance is still effective if you don't think so test it.
"Yes, winning all the time can be boring."
-Knight_Chill
"It's amazing how well you can put up with endurance issues if you hide them under a large enough pile of bodies."
-Spiritchaser speaking on Dom Revamp
Let's just say there is a decent case to be made for Pistols Blasters, and a decent case to be made for Pistols Scrappers, and see what the devs have cooked up.
Personally, I'd love to see Pistols users be Scrappers, with less damage than other Scrappers perhaps but range on par with the ranged attacks of Claws, Spines, etc.
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You need to take into account that pistols and rifles are two very different types of weapons:
Rifles have long barrels and use large charges of powder in their cartridges. Because of the greater power behind the bullet and more spin imparted by the long barrel, a rifle can be accurate up to a kilometer +
Pistols have short barrels and use heavier bullets with less powder in the cartridge. eyesight and targeting equipment can not overcome gravity. For all intents and purposes, a pistol is basically a melee weapon because it is only effective at close range.
Look it up
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That was taken into account but even still, Pistols are NOT Melee weapons.
You're post here is only half correct. Yes a riffle is more accurate than a pistol for all the reasons you listed but that does not by any means make it a melee weapon.
You can technically THROW a sword and there have been several comic book characters who have done exactly that but a sword is not a ranged weapon. Swords were not designed with the intent of throwing them. If you did so you'd be unarmed untill a time when you could retrieve your sword from wherever it landed so it would be verry stupid to throw a sword no matter how cool it allways looks when they do it in movies.
Same with pistols, they're designed for RANGE. Yeah you could shot from melee range but why have a gun if you're not going to use it's full range.
BTW Melee is game code for "POINT BLANK" range which for someone with a gun it only works to be standing that close if you can sneak up behind your target, (or anywhere for a Stalker) or if they're tied up and can't move otherwise all they have to do is take the gun from your hand.
Swords are great melee weapons with verry limited use at a range. Pistols are RANGED weapons with verry limited Melee use.
Well, take into account if pistols are used in this manner...
https://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthre...ue#Post13597821
Honestly I don't see why people are getting so bent out of shape over the fact that we don't have alot of information yet. Yeah it may have been to get the hype up, but at the same time all they did was say "Hey guys, we're doing a new expansion that'll let you change sides, it'll be coming later this year." They don't want to inundate us with all the information just yet when it will probably be a few months until this comes out. If they just dropped the whole kit n' kaboddle right now it'd drive people crazy waiting for specific features.
As is I'm already chomping at the bit for side-changing. I've made three toons specifically with the intent to change sides with them just so I'd have them ready. We've had hints that we'll have power customization and probably an overhauled costume editor but we don't know for sure nor do we have any details, and I'm alright with that. We also know there will be a new world to explore in Praetoria but don't know what to expect there as yet. That's some pretty big stuff in it's own right. If they were to release all the other info right now when it's still a while before the expansion then it'd simply suffer criticism.
Example: Let's say they give us all the info on the game and details on how the systems work. The description sounds somewhat sketchy and we have no hands-on experience in the game to confirm how it really works. People will start griping and complaining and whining about how they're RUINING the game and how they going to LEAVE THE GAME because they're so upset over it, people storm off in a hissy fit and then when the expansion comes out it's nothing like what the whiner's predicted and is actually fantastic. Guess what? They just lost subscribers and everyone else who stuck around had to listen to all the complaining until they packed up and left.
That's just one possible scenario. Frankly, I think they made a smart move. We've got plenty of info to keep my interest piqued and if they drop us a tidbit here or there I'll gladly take it and look forward to the expansion even more. I'm excited it's coming, that's enough for me. I'd hate to think how you people react to teaser trailers in the theatre.
/em rolleyes