Did I go overboard with my Custom Group?
By
Dark_Aspect,
Posted on: 2009-04-29 10:42 in Mission Architect
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the Mercenary minions from the Knives of Artemis
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Knives of Artemis
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In my personal opinion, the Knives of Artemis are overboard all by themselves. Against a steamroller team, nothing stands up for long, but solo they are quite a match.
[I don't really have time or space in the storyline to explain why Evil Incorporated has the things in it that it does.]
[I'll start by saying President Evil is a dark sorcerer and Evil Incorporated is a group similar to Crey, but they use alot of stolen technology. Also Evil's wife is the heir to a clan of Ninjas and a high ranking Night Widow.]
Knowing only this it sounds like your arc will be a bunch of stuff happens and you think it makes sense because you know a lot that the player doesn't.
As to 1 star - everyone means something different with stars. So someone might 1 star your mission because everything isn't pink.
OK, so to sum up as BRIEFLY as possible, your group has:
Ninjas, magical tattoo warriors, werewolves, robots, demons, Crey agents, Arachnos agents, Artemis agents, Chimera agents, and more.
You overdid it.
Leaving aside the fact that there is really no concept or unifying theme here whatsoever (they're not even all "Evil"!), the fact that you use distinctive units from established, insular groups with their own specific agendas completely demolishes any illusion that these guys are all working together. OK, I can buy that EI would hire Artemis mercenaries, and maybe Arachnos would ally with them (though not "work for" them), but Crey don't "loan out" their agents and Chimera are freaking crimefighters!
If you don't have room to plausibly explain how EI got all these crazy people to work for them, trim some out or accept that your arc makes no sense. Note! Accepting that your arc makes no sense is fine - tailor your text to reflect that, so that it makes sense that it makes no sense, if you see what I mean. But don't expect people to just natively buy into the idea that your mastermind has a firm hold over every group in the game.
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In my personal opinion, the Knives of Artemis are overboard all by themselves. Against a steamroller team, nothing stands up for long, but solo they are quite a match.
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Its just the minions though. No lts or bosses. I remember the bosses being annoying as a Mastermind and I thought the name "Mercenary" was generic enough to not sound like it sticks in a particular group.
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Knowing only this it sounds like your arc will be a bunch of stuff happens and you think it makes sense because you know a lot that the player doesn't.
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Yes and no. The first 3 missions are pretty well explained because Evil Incorporated just shows up at the end of Mission 3 and is the enemy in mission 4 because they were behind everything. It's kind of at the point where you have a pretty good understanding of what's going on and at that point the main thing is shutting down their current plan.
I've added a few things to try to give a little detail. But it's hard to write dialogue along the lines of "You've gotta stop them now! Oh by the way they have this, this, this, this, this, and this!" without sounding weird. A contact generally doesn't give you a history lesson about the enemies you're facing before sending you in. I don't know, I just kinda felt that as long as the villain himself is explained, then it shouldn't matter too much what kinda croneys they're sending at you.
I guess part of the problem is it would greatly help if we could attach descriptions for custom groups that are in our missions without having custom minions in the group.
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but Crey don't "loan out" their agents
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I can understand your reasoning behind most of what you said. But it shouldn't be that weird for an Evil Corporation to have scientists, security guards, and guys in suits wandering around. They're all kinda generic looking and weren't intended to be Crey Agents as far as my story went. I avoided their Paragon Protectors and Armored guys cause they had a very distinct look to them that seperates them from everything else.
The only things that were intended to be part of the group they're originally from were the Night Widows. Which I'm probably going to at least remove them and the Ink Men. Honestly probably wouldn't have made half the choices I did if I could have just picked the Mastermind pets as parts of the group and wasn't trying to fill in level gaps throughout the group.
Correct me if I'm wrong - This weird variety of minions appears because you want the mission to spawn level-appropriate enemies for a wide range of players?
Don't bother. Really. Just pick a cohesive theme (preferably that doesn't involve someone being the "heir to a clan of ninjas") and run with it and don't worry about being all things to all people.
When you incorporate recognizable, iconic NPC's from the game in your arc, the average player is not going to tell himself "Ah, these aren't literal Skulls and Council soldiers, they're meant to represent generic minions of this evil mastermind I'm opposing." Hes going to say "Why are Skulls and Warwolves in the same story and why the heck are they working for Evil, Inc.?" Especially when one of those NPC's has the words "Skull Buckshot" or "Warwolf Alpha" over its head.
You could always add your history lesson through clues. If the enemy group is a mystery to your contact, gaining clues that tell about them makes sense from a story point of view. Add a couple of clickies here and there that give the character (and thereby the player as well) some of that info.
@Doctor Gemini
Arc #271637 - Welcome to M.A.G.I. - An alternative first story arc for magic origin heroes. At Hero Registration you heard the jokes about Azuria always losing things. When she loses the entire M.A.G.I. vault, you are chosen to find it.
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When you incorporate recognizable, iconic NPC's from the game in your arc, the average player is not going to tell himself "Ah, these aren't literal Skulls and Council soldiers, they're meant to represent generic minions of this evil mastermind I'm opposing." Hes going to say "Why are Skulls and Warwolves in the same story and why the heck are they working for Evil, Inc.?" Especially when one of those NPC's has the words "Skull Buckshot" or "Warwolf Alpha" over its head.
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This
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But it shouldn't be that weird for an Evil Corporation to have scientists, security guards, and guys in suits wandering around.
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I completely agree, but as SlickRiptide said, when you put Crey agents into your arc, you are putting Crey agents into your arc.
I understand that you picked some guys who were "generic looking", and that makes sense. You just gotta accept that Crey are not generic - at least, many people will not take them as such. I wouldn't.
Taking out the Night Widows? Actually that seemed like one of the stronger links in your group's story - Mrs. Evil was a Widow, so she has "sisters" she can call on, right? Try this: in an early mission, put in a NW patrol with a little text saying, "Boy, I sure hope things work out for Mrs. Evil," "Yeah, it was great working with her at Widow School." Then no one will question Widows working with EI. Patrols with dialogue are a great way to tie your units into the story. You'll have to make a separate custom group with only Widows just for use with that one patrol, but it will add a lot of credibility and use almost no space. If anything I'd get rid of Artemis because 1) people hate them and 2) Widows are plenty good enough as "lady ninjas".
the #1 rule for making arcs is to do what the MA supports.
If you can make a good arc that is level 40-50 by removing a bunch of the groups and having it be more coherent - that is probably better.
You have to make choices, sometimes hard choices, to make your arc good at what it does, rather than doing everything badly.
Great advice dug.
I suppose you're right about the level crunching to make it make more sense. Especially seeing as the follow up arc is going to be level 45+ regardless due to bosses I intend to use.
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"Boy, I sure hope things work out for Mrs. Evil," "Yeah, it was great working with her at Widow School."
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Zombra, do you mind it I actually snatch that line? I find it amusing and can work with some of the other corny lines I have pop up at parts.
I've done something similiar with building a group, but the underlying theme is they are all female and have been brainwashed/banded together by an entity that collects beautiful women.
Hence there are none of the manly women from the Cabal ehhehe.
<sigh> Viv says its no longer "all me".
http://wendy-mags.mybrute.com/
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Chimera are freaking crimefighters!
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Looking back at this now. Did you get Chimera confused with Wyvern? Cause Chimera is the Praetorian version of Manticore, so he's a villain.
As far as slimming down the group. As it stands now it's probably going to consist of field agents, night widows, and Werewolves(From the group titled Werewolves, not the Council's Warwolves). I'm gonna see if I can add some custom minions into the mix and manage to get it up with that IGOR program I was reading about. If that doesn't work, for the sake of space. I may just replace his minions with Malta and say he hired them to guard the base.
A major problem for me has been the lack of high level ninjas aside from the ones that work for Chimera. My character is a Ninja mastermind and the heir thing has been part of his backstory since long before I even heard of the MA.
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"Boy, I sure hope things work out for Mrs. Evil," "Yeah, it was great working with her at Widow School."
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Zombra, do you mind it I actually snatch that line? I find it amusing and can work with some of the other corny lines I have pop up at parts.
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I'd love it if you did 
If we get an expanded description field I wouldn't mind a credit - "Additional dialogue by @Zombra" 
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Chimera are freaking crimefighters!
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Looking back at this now. Did you get Chimera confused with Wyvern? Cause Chimera is the Praetorian version of Manticore, so he's a villain.
As far as slimming down the group. As it stands now it's probably going to consist of field agents, night widows, and Werewolves(From the group titled Werewolves, not the Council's Warwolves). I'm gonna see if I can add some custom minions into the mix and manage to get it up with that IGOR program I was reading about. If that doesn't work, for the sake of space. I may just replace his minions with Malta and say he hired them to guard the base.
A major problem for me has been the lack of high level ninjas aside from the ones that work for Chimera. My character is a Ninja mastermind and the heir thing has been part of his backstory since long before I even heard of the MA.
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Making an arc based on your character instead of the good of the arc is a major cause of bad arcs.
Bah, I can't do Zombra's patrol idea. It doesn't seem to want to let you select a custom group for a patrol if the group contains no custom critters.
Weak!
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Bah, I can't do Zombra's patrol idea. It doesn't seem to want to let you select a custom group for a patrol if the group contains no custom critters.
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I do it all the time.
If the custom faction you want isn't in your list, select a different custom faction, then click the "Edit faction" button. All you have to do is click "Exit and Abandon Changes" and it should have your list refreshed to include all of your factions when you go back out, including ones that don't have custom critters.
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Daemonchilde: ((fluffy thinks he's a tank)) Demon . Hunter: (( I think mine is >.> Daemonchilde: ((Yours is no longer fluffy, it is Obliteron, destroyer of worlds)) |
Agreed. That's just a little bugginess in the system. You can do it, it just requires the above "reload".
Dec out.
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Making an arc based on your character instead of the good of the arc is a major cause of bad arcs.
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I do believe most professional writers would disagree with your views. A great story is made by great characters. Period. A good plot helps, but characters can compensate. The plot can never compensate for poorly developed characters.
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Making an arc based on your character instead of the good of the arc is a major cause of bad arcs.
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I do believe most professional writers would disagree with your views. A great story is made by great characters.
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Yup, my upcoming arc, "The Revenge of Mary-Sue" will show everyone exactly how incredibly awesome my character is. I fully expect everyone to be so floored by the sheer awesomeness of my character that it probably be both Hall of Fame AND Dev's Choice. Because my character is JUST THAT COOL, and hey, I should know, cuz I made them, and I know they're just so awesome that no one will EVER defeat them. They'll be too busy being awed at how great my character is, and then they won't even see the big one-shot attack coming!
Don't worry tho, I've included an ally who is almost as cool as my character. He can pretty much complete the whole mission himself, but you get to watch these two totally cool characters fight. Man, you gotta admit that'll be pretty sweet.
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Originally Posted by eltonio
This is over the top mental slavery.
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I did something similar with my custom group. My arc all leads up to a showdown with my main villain and his constructed minions. By the end of the arc, he's suffered a full on villainous breakdown and shut himself into an abandoned hospital, and surrounded himself with robots, the only things he can trust.
My custom group has every even slightly high-tech looking bot in the game. I've gotten equal parts praise and hatred because I have Vanguard HVAS's spawn with bigger groups. Also, Scorpinoids show up, which people seem to love.
Basically, if randomguy846 doesn't like your arc, screw him! Make the arcs for the enjoyment of yourself and your friends. That's what I've done. I enjoy it. My friends have enjoyed it. That's all that should really matter.
Current Main: Thudd. 36 SS/Invul Brute on Justice
50's - Bitter Hatred Bots/FF/Mu MM - Rogue Wyvern Arch/Elec/Elec Blaster - Stonewerk Stone/Stone/Stone Brute - GB Nasty Thugs/Storm/Lev MM
Power and Chaos!
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Making an arc based on your character instead of the good of the arc is a major cause of bad arcs.
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I do believe most professional writers would disagree with your views. A great story is made by great characters. Period. A good plot helps, but characters can compensate. The plot can never compensate for poorly developed characters.
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You missed the point. See Dr Fear for re-education
A mission arc of mine got one starred by someone who judging from his comment simply thought my custom group was absurd. I don't really have time or space in the storyline to explain why Evil Incorporated has the things in it that it does. SG members told me there was nothing really wrong with the arc and couldn't believe someone would 1 star it, but being my friends they're kinda biased I'd say.
I'll start by saying President Evil is a dark sorcerer and Evil Incorporated is a group similar to Crey, but they use alot of stolen technology. Also Evil's wife is the heir to a clan of Ninjas and a high ranking Night Widow. To save space for the eventually unique bosses that will be associated with the group in later missions every enemy in my custom group is a pre existing enemy in the game, but I tried to avoid ones with names that link them directly to the group they're originally from.
I just want thoughts on if any of this sounds too ridiculess, but my group consists of...
At the lower levels (20-24) primarily ink men and ninjas from the Tsoo. I also have Warwolf lts and bosses that go up to level 50.
Levels 25-40 Mek Men minions and Lts start appearing as well as various demon lts and bosses. At levels 30-45 various crey scientists and guards start getting mixed in. Also at 35+ there are Night Widow lts but they tend to get drowned out by all hte other lts.
At level 40+ warwolf minions start appearing as well as the Mercenary minions from the Knives of Artemis(Closest thing I could find to female ninjas). Lastly 45+ I have Chimera's minions and lts to add some higher end ninjas to the group.
Did I over do it? Thoughts?