Did I go overboard with my Custom Group?
By
Dark_Aspect,
Posted on: 2009-04-29 10:42 in Mission Architect
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Making an arc based on your character instead of the good of the arc is a major cause of bad arcs.
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I do believe most professional writers would disagree with your views. A great story is made by great characters. Period. A good plot helps, but characters can compensate. The plot can never compensate for poorly developed characters.
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It may be obvious, but it should be said: a good story will have both. Great characters alone cannot cover for a tedious, shallow, or unconvincing plot. I'd actually say that, in the medium of MA, a great plot does not even need great characters - the player is going to provide a character that they're going to like better than everyone in the arc anyway, and even "off the rack" NPCs are already well developed. We all know who the Freakshow and Circle of Thorns are, and why they are interesting (or why we hate them) ... the point is that a brilliant story idea involving these factions will please discerning players even if the enemy bosses are no more inspired than existing bosses with custom names.
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Very cute, but there's a huge difference between using one's characters' stories for an arc and Mary Suing them.
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Yes, but, I think the point trying to be made is that very few MA authors (at least that I've seen to date) have figured out that difference. And of those who have, a large number of them haven't figured out that most people don't care about your character's story if the arc doesn't make their character feel like an active participant in it.
@Doctor Gemini
Arc #271637 - Welcome to M.A.G.I. - An alternative first story arc for magic origin heroes. At Hero Registration you heard the jokes about Azuria always losing things. When she loses the entire M.A.G.I. vault, you are chosen to find it.
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Very cute, but there's a huge difference between using one's characters' stories for an arc and Mary Suing them.
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Yes, but, I think the point trying to be made is that very few MA authors (at least that I've seen to date) have figured out that difference. And of those who have, a large number of them haven't figured out that most people don't care about your character's story if the arc doesn't make their character feel like an active participant in it.
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right - an arc has to be about the player, not about your character. The more attached you are to the villains, contact, allies, etc - the less likely you are to be writing for the player.
Simple trick to making a player feel his character is truly part of the Arc. First mission don't mention the character by name at all, other than maybe letting the contact use it.
Second mission have patrols uset the $name in their dialogue.. have the lt's start using the $name in attack dialogue.. etc etc..
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Simple trick to making a player feel his character is truly part of the Arc. First mission don't mention the character by name at all, other than maybe letting the contact use it.
Second mission have patrols uset the $name in their dialogue.. have the lt's start using the $name in attack dialogue.. etc etc..
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Ooh, I like it. A lot. Adding to bag of tricks. Thanks 
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Making an arc based on your character instead of the good of the arc is a major cause of bad arcs.
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I do believe most professional writers would disagree with your views. A great story is made by great characters.
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Yup, my upcoming arc, "The Revenge of Mary-Sue" will show everyone exactly how incredibly awesome my character is. I fully expect everyone to be so floored by the sheer awesomeness of my character that it probably be both Hall of Fame AND Dev's Choice. Because my character is JUST THAT COOL, and hey, I should know, cuz I made them, and I know they're just so awesome that no one will EVER defeat them. They'll be too busy being awed at how great my character is, and then they won't even see the big one-shot attack coming!
Don't worry tho, I've included an ally who is almost as cool as my character. He can pretty much complete the whole mission himself, but you get to watch these two totally cool characters fight. Man, you gotta admit that'll be pretty sweet.
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For the record. I didn't do that. My villain doesn't even make an actual appearance in the arc. There just are a few Fake Nemesis style bosses of him in it. Overall the arc is about stopping what's going on that he just happens to be behind.
It's just easier to write with your own characters because there is no chance of you making your own character do something that's out of character.
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Simple trick to making a player feel his character is truly part of the Arc. First mission don't mention the character by name at all, other than maybe letting the contact use it.
Second mission have patrols uset the $name in their dialogue.. have the lt's start using the $name in attack dialogue.. etc etc..
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It's a good idea, but currently, if you use $name in patrol dialogue they say $name, not the character's name.
@Doctor Gemini
Arc #271637 - Welcome to M.A.G.I. - An alternative first story arc for magic origin heroes. At Hero Registration you heard the jokes about Azuria always losing things. When she loses the entire M.A.G.I. vault, you are chosen to find it.
[ QUOTE ]
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Very cute, but there's a huge difference between using one's characters' stories for an arc and Mary Suing them.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, but, I think the point trying to be made is that very few MA authors (at least that I've seen to date) have figured out that difference. And of those who have, a large number of them haven't figured out that most people don't care about your character's story if the arc doesn't make their character feel like an active participant in it.
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Oh, understood, but that's a flaw in execution, not in concept. Nothing wrong with telling one of your characters' stories in and of itself. In fact, done right, you won't even know it's one of of the author's player characters, just one created for the MA.
It's like when my college writing professor told the class to not use the word "hopefully" at all, because so many people don't know how to use it. I deliberately used it in my next paper...correctly, of course. 
Dec out.
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Simple trick to making a player feel his character is truly part of the Arc. First mission don't mention the character by name at all, other than maybe letting the contact use it.
Second mission have patrols uset the $name in their dialogue.. have the lt's start using the $name in attack dialogue.. etc etc..
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It's a good idea, but currently, if you use $name in patrol dialogue they say $name, not the character's name.
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YEah, I realized that when I was doing some testing on my arc after a feedback inspired republish. You should only use that for attack dialogue currently.
Perhaps, in the future, they will capture hero names when they enter the instance so that it would work properly in unaware dialogue.
It's not entirely broken, which makes it more frustrating, actually.
It's a proximity/line of sight thing. If the hero is close enough to whatever the mob thinks is its perception range, it will use the character's name, otherwise it will say $name.
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Yes, but, I think the point trying to be made is that very few MA authors (at least that I've seen to date) have figured out that difference. And of those who have, a large number of them haven't figured out that most people don't care about your character's story if the arc doesn't make their character feel like an active participant in it.
[/ QUOTE ]
Oh, understood, but that's a flaw in execution, not in concept. Nothing wrong with telling one of your characters' stories in and of itself. In fact, done right, you won't even know it's one of of the author's player characters, just one created for the MA.
It's like when my college writing professor told the class to not use the word "hopefully" at all, because so many people don't know how to use it. I deliberately used it in my next paper...correctly, of course.
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Oh, I agree with you. I don't automatically assume that an arc about the author's character is going to marginalize my own, I just more often than not end up disappointed.
@Doctor Gemini
Arc #271637 - Welcome to M.A.G.I. - An alternative first story arc for magic origin heroes. At Hero Registration you heard the jokes about Azuria always losing things. When she loses the entire M.A.G.I. vault, you are chosen to find it.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Very cute, but there's a huge difference between using one's characters' stories for an arc and Mary Suing them.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, but, I think the point trying to be made is that very few MA authors (at least that I've seen to date) have figured out that difference. And of those who have, a large number of them haven't figured out that most people don't care about your character's story if the arc doesn't make their character feel like an active participant in it.
[/ QUOTE ]
Oh, understood, but that's a flaw in execution, not in concept. Nothing wrong with telling one of your characters' stories in and of itself. In fact, done right, you won't even know it's one of of the author's player characters, just one created for the MA.
It's like when my college writing professor told the class to not use the word "hopefully" at all, because so many people don't know how to use it. I deliberately used it in my next paper...correctly, of course.
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adding elements to your arc out of spite is also not a good practice.
Amazingly good writers make anything work - but you don't write guides for amazingly good writers. And most amazing writers are amazingly bad, they just think they are good.
One man's "spite" is another man's "illustration". 
And just for the record, going off on a Mary Sue rant isn't "writing a guide". It WAS however, quite amusing.
Dec out.
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One man's "spite" is another man's "illustration".
And just for the record, going off on a Mary Sue rant isn't "writing a guide". It WAS however, quite amusing.
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one man's "rant" is another man's "guide"
rants are against the ToS, guides are not 
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Making an arc based on your character instead of the good of the arc is a major cause of bad arcs.
[/ QUOTE ]
I do believe most professional writers would disagree with your views. A great story is made by great characters.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yup, my upcoming arc, "The Revenge of Mary-Sue" will show everyone exactly how incredibly awesome my character is. I fully expect everyone to be so floored by the sheer awesomeness of my character that it probably be both Hall of Fame AND Dev's Choice. Because my character is JUST THAT COOL, and hey, I should know, cuz I made them, and I know they're just so awesome that no one will EVER defeat them. They'll be too busy being awed at how great my character is, and then they won't even see the big one-shot attack coming!
Don't worry tho, I've included an ally who is almost as cool as my character. He can pretty much complete the whole mission himself, but you get to watch these two totally cool characters fight. Man, you gotta admit that'll be pretty sweet.
[/ QUOTE ]
Very cute, but there's a huge difference between using one's characters' stories for an arc and Mary Suing them.
Dec out.
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