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Heya folks, i was wondering if it's still viable to slot a power with multiple Procs.
Can they fire simultaneously? Or has this been nerfed (like they used to IIRC)?
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Works fine for damage procs in cones/AoEs.
Ah, excellent!
I'll be adding that Eradication: Chance for Energy dmg to my Irradiate then! (well that and other nice Procs i can find for it :P)
Thanks!
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Procs do stack in everything. But, mathmatically speaking, the effect is not consistant (20% + 20% = 40%), rather it is subject to a sort of diminishing returns.
I don't remember the exact formula, but I think 20% + 20% = 32% or something like that. Adding a third 20% sees an even smaller percentile chance that at least one will fire off. The chance that multiple will fire off remains a static 20% I believe (with the exception of purples).
Raid Leader of Task Force Vendetta "Steel 70", who defeated the first nine Drop Ships in the Second Rikti War.
70 Heroes, 9 Drop Ships, 7 Minutes. The Aliens never knew what hit them.
Now soloing: GM-Class enemy Adamaster, with a Tanker!
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Procs do stack in everything. But, mathmatically speaking, the effect is not consistant (20% + 20% = 40%), rather it is subject to a sort of diminishing returns.
I don't remember the exact formula, but I think 20% + 20% = 32% or something like that. Adding a third 20% sees an even smaller percentile chance that at least one will fire off. The chance that multiple will fire off remains a static 20% I believe (with the exception of purples).
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You've got that quite wrong. The chances that each proc will trigger is mathematically independent. Assuming for simplicity that each proc has a 20% chance to go off, two procs gives a 0.2 x 0.2 = 4% chance for both to trigger and a 2 x (0.2 x 0.8) = 32% chance that only one will fire. You therefore have a 36% chance that at least one proc will fire.
If you have 3 procs, all with 20% chance to trigger, you have an 0.8% for them to all go off at once (0.2^3), a 9.6% (or 3 x (0.2 x 0.2 x 0.8)) chance for two of the three to fire, and a 38.4% (or 3 x (0.2 x 0.8 x 0.8)) chance that only one will go off. This gives a 48.8% chance for at least one proc to activate.
And DPS is key, so sometimes, (and in most cases) Multiples procs arent as efficient as a IO set in that power. You've got to find the best way to get the highest DPS, this is why mid's is such a nice little tool.
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And DPS is key, so sometimes, (and in most cases) Multiples procs arent as efficient as a IO set in that power.
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The best rule of thumb is low damage single-target and low to mid damage cones/AoEs will give the best return for slotting multiple procs. A high damage power is always going to lose average DPS when slotted with multiple procs, even though it gains the potential for higher burst damage, because the average damage from those procs will always be less than what you'd get from slotting damage enhancements.
The standard damage proc deals 71.75 damage at level 50, for all ATs, and those same standard procs all have a 20% chance to trigger. 71.75 * 0.2 = 14.35. That's the average damage increase you'll see over time from a single proc. Knowing that, it's easy to determine which powers benefit from procs and which don't. If slotting a single damage enhancement would result in a damage increase equal to or lower than 14.35, then a proc can replace that damage enhancement without DPS loss. If the base damage of the power is high enough that slotting damage enhancements yield an increase in damage greater than 14.35, then slotting procs isn't warranted unless you simply have the extra slot(s).
As Wuigly noted, most powers aren't going to give a reasonable return, in terms of DPS, from slotting multiple procs, for two reasons. First, many powers have their base damage set high enough to outstrip that 14.35 average per slot, and second, because powers have limits on how many procs they can use (specifically, they can only use procs from their allowed IO sets, and only one from each set).
The simplest way to think about it is this: Multiple 14.35 times the number of procs the power accepts. If the base damage is equal to or less than that sum, then it's viable for multi-proc slotting. If the base damage is higher than that sum, then you should slot it for damage and only slot procs if you have the extra slots and are not sacrificing accuracy or recharge for those procs.
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Procs do stack in everything.
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That's not quite true, some procs do not stack. The Achille's Heel -res proc will not stack from the same caster. As opposed to something like Devastation: chance to hold which will stack from the same caster. A second Achille's Heel procing will simply reset the debuff timer.
Draggynn on Virtue: lvl 50 Storm/Psi, 1389 badges
Draggynn's Guide to Storm Summoning(Gale-Tornado, updated 6/25/2011)
Avatar by Wassy full reference here
procs work best on powers that normally do not do damage at all. choking cloud,artic air are two that benefit most from them. pbaoe toggles can be wonderull also like blazing aura,quills from multiple proc slotting If you can solve accuracy,damage and end problems via other sources and hamis.
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procs work best on powers that normally do not do damage at all.
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Usually. Procs in non-aggro, non-damaging powers, like Smoke Grenade or Surveillance is a BAD thing, because the proc will cause the powers to start generating aggro.
@Roderick
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And DPS is key, so sometimes, (and in most cases) Multiples procs arent as efficient as a IO set in that power.
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The best rule of thumb is low damage single-target and low to mid damage cones.......
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heh, everytime i hear "rule of thumb" i think of Boondock Saints 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ff5Dl...eature=related
perma jump is ---> /up 1
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Procs do stack in everything. But, mathmatically speaking, the effect is not consistant (20% + 20% = 40%), rather it is subject to a sort of diminishing returns.
I don't remember the exact formula, but I think 20% + 20% = 32% or something like that. Adding a third 20% sees an even smaller percentile chance that at least one will fire off. The chance that multiple will fire off remains a static 20% I believe (with the exception of purples).
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You've got that quite wrong. The chances that each proc will trigger is mathematically independent. Assuming for simplicity that each proc has a 20% chance to go off, two procs gives a 0.2 x 0.2 = 4% chance for both to trigger and a 2 x (0.2 x 0.8) = 32% chance that only one will fire. You therefore have a 36% chance that at least one proc will fire.
If you have 3 procs, all with 20% chance to trigger, you have an 0.8% for them to all go off at once (0.2^3), a 9.6% (or 3 x (0.2 x 0.2 x 0.8)) chance for two of the three to fire, and a 38.4% (or 3 x (0.2 x 0.8 x 0.8)) chance that only one will go off. This gives a 48.8% chance for at least one proc to activate.
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I stand corrected. Thank you for the update. 
I am trying to figure out how that works for 4 procs as an experiment. I understand the first portion is .2 x .2 x .2 x .2 = .16 for all 4, but I'm not sure I understand the second portion of the equation for 3 and up (.2 x .2 x .2 x .16 does not seem right at a glance).
Raid Leader of Task Force Vendetta "Steel 70", who defeated the first nine Drop Ships in the Second Rikti War.
70 Heroes, 9 Drop Ships, 7 Minutes. The Aliens never knew what hit them.
Now soloing: GM-Class enemy Adamaster, with a Tanker!
To get the total chance of something going off you have to tally the odds of every possibility. Let's say you have three procs, A, B and C with chances to proc of Pa, Pb and Pc, respectively.
Odds of something activating is the sum of the odds of:
[*] A activating and (B and C not activating) OR[*] B activating and (A and C not activating) OR [*] C activating and (A and B not activating) OR[*] (A and B activating) and C not activating OR[*] (A and C activating) and B not activating OR[*] (B and C activating) and A not activatng OR[*] A, B and C activating
"AND" operations above mean you multiply the probabilities. "OR" operations mean you add them. The chance of something not happening is 100% minus the probability it does happen.
So that works out to:
[*] Pa * ((1-Pb)*(1-Pc)) +[*] Pb * ((1-Pa)*(1-Pc)) +[*] Pc * ((1-Pa)*(1-Pb)) +[*] (Pa * Pb) * (1-Pc) +[*] (Pa * Pc) * (1-Pb) +[*] (Pb * Pc) * (1-Pa) +[*] Pa * Pb * Pc
So if all these procs have a 20% chance of going off...
[*] 12.8% +[*] 12.8% +[*] 12.8% +[*] 3.2% +[*] 3.2% +[*] 3.2% +[*] 0.8*
That adds up to a 48.8% chance of some combination of procs going off on each activation.
Sorry, I know you asked about four, but three was a lot easier to illustrate.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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I stand corrected. Thank you for the update.
I am trying to figure out how that works for 4 procs as an experiment. I understand the first portion is .2 x .2 x .2 x .2 = .16 for all 4, but I'm not sure I understand the second portion of the equation for 3 and up (.2 x .2 x .2 x .16 does not seem right at a glance).
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Assuming all the procs you are using have a 20% chance to proc, the chance that three will proc, is (.2*.2*.2)*.8*4=2.56%
The first part of that is easy, the chance that three of the procs will go off = .2*.2*.2 But because we only want three of those procs to go off, we need the fourth proc not to go off (that's the .8 (1-.2). Now there are 4 different procs that you could choose to be the proc not to go off, so that's the final 4. For a total chance that 3 procs will go off of 2.56% This is quite a bit higher than the .8% change that you would have with only 3 procs.
Now the chance that you will have two procs go off get's a bit more complicated. we still have then (.2*.2*.8*.8) that we had before which is the chance that 2 procs will go off and 2 procs won't, but now we need to take into account all the possibilities for how we could choose 2 procs. Well, we have 4 options for the first proc, and that leaves 3 options for the second proc. However, we have counted proc A and then proc B as well as proc B and then proc A so we need to divide by 2 (4*3)/2 =6 So the chance that 2 procs will go off is (.2*.2*.8*.8)*6 = 15.36%
The chance for just one proc to go off is *.2*.8*.8*.8)*4=40.96%
So with 4 procs the chance that at least one will proc on any given attack is 59.04% (Assuming i multiplied and added correctly).
So, in general if you have X procs with Y chance of procing. And you want to know what the chance of Z (<=X) of those procs going off is. Your answer is:
Y^Z*(1-Y)^(X-Z)*[X*(X-1)*...*(X-(Z-1))/Z!]
the operation in the brackets is the nCr command, and can be performed in google with the word choose. (X choose Z)
Obviously this becomes more complicated when the procs all have different chances of going off. In that case, you pretty much have it do it Uber's long way.
Hope that helps. Also I'm not awake yet, there may be an error somewhere in all that.
Draggynn on Virtue: lvl 50 Storm/Psi, 1389 badges
Draggynn's Guide to Storm Summoning(Gale-Tornado, updated 6/25/2011)
Avatar by Wassy full reference here
Okay got the gist of this discussion. But still somewhat unclear as to whether slotting a bunch of procs in a low damage power results in higher damage than just slotting for damage.
Example :
Will slotting 4 damage boosting proces in a power like Hot Feet generate more damage over time than just slotting 3 damage SO's ? If so is it a lot more damage or just marginal ?
Thanks.
Over the hills and through the woods.
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Okay got the gist of this discussion. But still somewhat unclear as to whether slotting a bunch of procs in a low damage power results in higher damage than just slotting for damage.
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It can, as long as the power's base damage really is low and the power accepts more than two procs (because you're replacing damage enhancements). But again, it's important to keep in mind that procs are, essentially, randomly applied damage, as opposed to damage enhancements, which offer a guaranteed predetermined amount of damage (presuming the power hits).
Here's the simplest way I can explain how I see it: if the base damage of a power ~40 or less, or the power takes a long time to deliver its damage (8 seconds or more), and the power accepts three or more damage procs, then it's worth slotting the procs instead of damage enhancements. If the base damage of the power is greater than 45, or the power doesn't accept at least three damage procs, then it's more worthwhile to slot damage enhancements rather than procs (note that you can still slot procs in the power, in the slots you would've reserved for Acc, End, Rchg or whatever else, but you have to consider what you're giving up that way just like you have to look at the damage and how it compares to procs).
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Example :
Will slotting 4 damage boosting proces in a power like Hot Feet generate more damage over time than just slotting 3 damage SO's ?
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Maybe. It wouldn't be better if you were playing a Fire controller who uses +Damage buffs (like Fire/Kin), because procs don't benefit from +Damage. You may actually lose damage output over the long term if you rely on +Damage buffs. On the other hand, if you don't use +Damage buffs, or you use -Res debuffs or don't use any buffs or debuffs, then you're likely to see an increase in the average damage potential of the power.
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If so is it a lot more damage or just marginal ?
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That also depends on the primary and how you play. With no -Res, it would be a marginal increase. With a nice amount of -Res, it will tend to be significantly more damage, because the base damage of procs is so much higher than the base damage of the power.
Damage procs aren't, in and of themselves, a suitable replacement for damage enhancements in most cases. You have to build with procs in mind to maximize their contribution, and even then some powers, and some builds, just aren't going to be as productive with procs as they would be with damage enhancements.
To really leverage procs as replacements for damage enhancements, they need to be slotted in AoEs/PBAoEs which deal low or no damage (or take "too long" to deliver their damage); in low/slow damage AoE/PBAoE powers, you need to slot three or more procs; and your build can't be reliant on +Damage to increase its damage output.
If those conditions are met, then it's usually safe to slot procs instead of damage enhancements. If a power doesn't meet one or more of those conditions, then you're better off sticking with damage enhancements and only trying to slot procs when you have "extra" slots.
Thanks for the analysis Luminara.
Im considering this with Hot Feet on a dom. The base damage is 10, but it is a toggle that will tick every few seconds.
I can fit in 4 damage boosting procs.
But I will be under domination most of the time so there is a damage booster. Then there is no -resist.
So it sounds like I "might" see a damage boost based on what you noted above. So no significant benefit.
Or if Ive interpreted it wrong let me know.
Thanks again.
Over the hills and through the woods.
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Thanks for the analysis Luminara.
Im considering this with Hot Feet on a dom. The base damage is 10, but it is a toggle that will tick every few seconds.
I can fit in 4 damage boosting procs.
But I will be under domination most of the time so there is a damage booster. Then there is no -resist.
So it sounds like I "might" see a damage boost based on what you noted above. So no significant benefit.
Or if Ive interpreted it wrong let me know.
Thanks again.
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For that build, I'd slot four Dam/End IOs, and if you find two extra slots, then pack a couple of extra procs in. I wouldn't replace damage enhancements under those circumstances.
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Procs do stack in everything. But, mathmatically speaking, the effect is not consistant (20% + 20% = 40%), rather it is subject to a sort of diminishing returns.
I don't remember the exact formula, but I think 20% + 20% = 32% or something like that. Adding a third 20% sees an even smaller percentile chance that at least one will fire off. The chance that multiple will fire off remains a static 20% I believe (with the exception of purples).
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You've got that quite wrong. The chances that each proc will trigger is mathematically independent. Assuming for simplicity that each proc has a 20% chance to go off, two procs gives a 0.2 x 0.2 = 4% chance for both to trigger and a 2 x (0.2 x 0.8) = 32% chance that only one will fire. You therefore have a 36% chance that at least one proc will fire.
If you have 3 procs, all with 20% chance to trigger, you have an 0.8% for them to all go off at once (0.2^3), a 9.6% (or 3 x (0.2 x 0.2 x 0.8)) chance for two of the three to fire, and a 38.4% (or 3 x (0.2 x 0.8 x 0.8)) chance that only one will go off. This gives a 48.8% chance for at least one proc to activate.
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Steel, I'm going to borrow this little bit for a Proc Lobster guide. =P
He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you. -F. Nietzsche
Virtueverse
Guide to Dark/Dark Defenders
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I stand corrected. Thank you for the update.
I am trying to figure out how that works for 4 procs as an experiment. I understand the first portion is .2 x .2 x .2 x .2 = .16 for all 4, but I'm not sure I understand the second portion of the equation for 3 and up (.2 x .2 x .2 x .16 does not seem right at a glance).
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Assuming all the procs you are using have a 20% chance to proc, the chance that three will proc, is (.2*.2*.2)*.8*4=2.56%
The first part of that is easy, the chance that three of the procs will go off = .2*.2*.2 But because we only want three of those procs to go off, we need the fourth proc not to go off (that's the .8 (1-.2). Now there are 4 different procs that you could choose to be the proc not to go off, so that's the final 4. For a total chance that 3 procs will go off of 2.56% This is quite a bit higher than the .8% change that you would have with only 3 procs.
Now the chance that you will have two procs go off get's a bit more complicated. we still have then (.2*.2*.8*.8) that we had before which is the chance that 2 procs will go off and 2 procs won't, but now we need to take into account all the possibilities for how we could choose 2 procs. Well, we have 4 options for the first proc, and that leaves 3 options for the second proc. However, we have counted proc A and then proc B as well as proc B and then proc A so we need to divide by 2 (4*3)/2 =6 So the chance that 2 procs will go off is (.2*.2*.8*.8)*6 = 15.36%
The chance for just one proc to go off is *.2*.8*.8*.8)*4=40.96%
So with 4 procs the chance that at least one will proc on any given attack is 59.04% (Assuming i multiplied and added correctly).
So, in general if you have X procs with Y chance of procing. And you want to know what the chance of Z (<=X) of those procs going off is. Your answer is:
Y^Z*(1-Y)^(X-Z)*[X*(X-1)*...*(X-(Z-1))/Z!]
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You can also shortcut this a bit when calculating P(at least one happens) by calculating 1-P(none happen). In the case of four procs, the probability of no procs going off is (.8*.8*.8*.8) or .4096, so 1-.4096 gives you the same 59.04%, but without having to calculate a P for each possible outcome.
So, slotting 4 damage procs(Posi, one of the KB set chance for smashing, and the accurate defbuff damage proc and the def debuff damage proc) in say Electron Haze for my Corr would be a good idea? Or just 3 procs.
Pending the average firing percentage VS damage boosts (coupled by accuracy and chance to hit - alot of math involved so I basically wing it on most accounts, easier to do with SS's massive to-hit bonus)... I'd wager the 3-Proc approach over a 4-Proc one if you cannot boost the damage any higher. I only use one 4-Proc power (Haymaker) as endurance and accuracy concerns are not an issue due to massive IO bonuses elsewhere (got 2 lvl 50 damage IOs and 4 procs slotted for it specifically). All my other powers use 2 Procs of varying origin and various frankenslotting methods.
Raid Leader of Task Force Vendetta "Steel 70", who defeated the first nine Drop Ships in the Second Rikti War.
70 Heroes, 9 Drop Ships, 7 Minutes. The Aliens never knew what hit them.
Now soloing: GM-Class enemy Adamaster, with a Tanker!
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So, slotting 4 damage procs(Posi, one of the KB set chance for smashing, and the accurate defbuff damage proc and the def debuff damage proc) in say Electron Haze for my Corr would be a good idea? Or just 3 procs.
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I love Procs as additions to powers after I have the slotting effects that I want. A '% Chance for damage' proc works best, to me, in a power that normally does no (or very little) damage.
They can be fun, but not enough to warrant hurting your normal slotting. If you can squeeze some in after taking care of the powers other needs, then go for it, but don't purely slot Procs instead of other enhancements.
I have the Chance for Psi damage in my Invincibilty (yes, it still works, though not sure I could reslot it if I respecced) and also in Taunt. Gee, it's FUN killing a wounded minion with Taunt.
I have a few in my Ice Tanks Toggles also, since I had the room.
If at all possible, work with someone who can copy to Test, respec, and let you play with some of them there.
My memory's not as sharp as it used to be.
Also, my memory's not as sharp as it used to be.
"The tip of a shoelace is called an aglet, its true purpose is sinister." The Question
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So, slotting 4 damage procs(Posi, one of the KB set chance for smashing, and the accurate defbuff damage proc and the def debuff damage proc) in say Electron Haze for my Corr would be a good idea? Or just 3 procs.
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In a Corruptor, I'd advise against doing that. They're good subsitutes for straight Damage IOs in Neutrino Bolt, but in Electron Haze they actually make it worse with more than one (assuming you're sacrificing Damage % for them). They also don't benefit from Scourge.
Liberty for All
Balefor - 50 DM/EA
Summon VII - 50 Claws/Regen
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Catwhoorg: What time of year should I plant my cabbages?
Castle: It doesn't matter if you have the Gold Watering Can.
I currently have 4 damage procs(gladiator's javelin,lady grey,shield breaker, and apoc procs) and 2 nucleus's in my rad's neutrino bolt and procs seems to work amazing in that power due to the speed of recharge and activation time.
Heya folks, i was wondering if it's still viable to slot a power with multiple Procs.
Can they fire simultaneously? Or has this been nerfed (like they used to IIRC)?
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