Live Feedback: Issue 13 : Merit Reward System
By
1VB_FIST,
Posted on: 2008-12-11 18:56 in Developers' Corner
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One way that could be balanced would be to have each TF give random drops at the content's level, not at your level.
So... if there's worry about Katie giving farmable recipes AND merits, it gets farmed for level 34 recipes. (Plus 1 or 2 levels on higher difficulties.) Not nearly as abusive as farming level 50s, given the difference in power between 50 buffs and 34 buffs.
55 Merits on Posi plus a level 15 drop isn't much more from the view of a 50 farmer, but consider how it looks to a level 15 character.
etc, etc. Not totally the random drop plus merits, but still a great compromise.
This would actually help the market quite a bit by generating a variety of levels. Consider how many level 30-ish Posi Triples were getting sold even before Merits came along.
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That would make Posi really popular. Since 15 is the lowest that the +stealth movement IO's drop.
"If you played enough to earn 240 merits, then you would have earned at least 50 million with the old system. I seriously doubt you did that without doing some tf's."
I did Positron, Numina, and a respec (second one). grand total influence earned via grouping was 1.9 million total. That is with selling normal recipe drops at ah for 100,000 each. If you can make 50 million a week please tell us how. I sure dont know how to do it.
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"If you played enough to earn 240 merits, then you would have earned at least 50 million with the old system. I seriously doubt you did that without doing some tf's."
I did Positron, Numina, and a respec (second one). grand total influence earned via grouping was 1.9 million total. That is with selling normal recipe drops at ah for 100,000 each. If you can make 50 million a week please tell us how. I sure dont know how to do it.
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Wow, so you made 133 merits on story arc completions in a week? Impressive, did you log of at all?
In the old system, you could score 50 million in one 20-30 minute katie task force.
Cyber, you're pulling numbers out of your behind. A level 50 could maybe make a couple million off a katie, but that's it, unless they got a really good drop.
Trust me, i farmed Katie dry. I NEVER made 50 mil in a single run. So just stop.
-STEELE =)
Allied to all sides so that no matter what, I'll come out on top!
Oh, and Crimson demands you play this arc-> Twisted Knives (MA Arc #397769)
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In the old system, you could score 50 million in one 20-30 minute katie task force.
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On what planet? Your numbers are off by a factor of more than 10.
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
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"If you played enough to earn 240 merits, then you would have earned at least 50 million with the old system. I seriously doubt you did that without doing some tf's."
I did Positron, Numina, and a respec (second one). grand total influence earned via grouping was 1.9 million total. That is with selling normal recipe drops at ah for 100,000 each. If you can make 50 million a week please tell us how. I sure dont know how to do it.
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Wow, so you made 133 merits on story arc completions in a week? Impressive, did you log of at all?
In the old system, you could score 50 million in one 20-30 minute katie task force.
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Now you have gone from trolling to sounding just plain silly.
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Cyber, you're pulling numbers out of your behind. A level 50 could maybe make a couple million off a katie, but that's it, [u]unless they got a really good drop.[u]
Trust me, i farmed Katie dry. I NEVER made 50 mil in a single run. So just stop.
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You could make 50 million off a Katie. Just not everytime. Remember he said "could" not "would".
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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One way that could be balanced would be to have each TF give random drops at the content's level, not at your level.
So... if there's worry about Katie giving farmable recipes AND merits, it gets farmed for level 34 recipes. (Plus 1 or 2 levels on higher difficulties.) Not nearly as abusive as farming level 50s, given the difference in power between 50 buffs and 34 buffs.
55 Merits on Posi plus a level 15 drop isn't much more from the view of a 50 farmer, but consider how it looks to a level 15 character.
etc, etc. Not totally the random drop plus merits, but still a great compromise.
This would actually help the market quite a bit by generating a variety of levels. Consider how many level 30-ish Posi Triples were getting sold even before Merits came along.
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That would make Posi really popular. Since 15 is the lowest that the +stealth movement IO's drop.
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Is that a bad thing?
It's easy enough to buy 15s with Merits directly, so is this any worse?
And you have to weigh that chance against people who prefer to run something where a larger percent of the possible drops would be more useful to them.
(heck, Stealth is easy enough at level 1 from an empowerment station. I can see the usefulness of the IO, but I can't believe how much people pay for what's essentially convenience over Empowerment.)
Purely Subjective Feedback:
I feel that, like the rest of the game, the Merit Reward system if unfairly biased towards team play. This bothers me quite a bit for a simple reason; I don't play this game because I love MMORPGs, or video games, or socializing with a lot of people that I will very likely never see in real life -- I play it because I love comic books!
Now, go out to a comic store and count the number of comic books that star one character and compare that number of books that feature teams. While you're at it, look at the number of team books that have members who also have solo titles.
The solo books outnumber the others. I know this, as a comic book fan.
So how about you folks work on making it possible to play solo and reap rewards that are, if not comparative to those of constantly teaming, at least closer to equitable.
Please?
We aren't all team players, after all.
The word 'politics' is derived from the word 'poly', meaning 'many', and the word 'ticks', meaning 'blood sucking parasites.' -- Larry Hardiman
Objective:
*Cost Scaling versus Level (Excluding +Special Recipes): A Level 20 Acc/Dmg is not going to be as long term applicable to a character as a Level 30 Acc/Dmg, Level 40 Acc/Dmg, or Level 50 Acc/Dmg. Also, the time required to possibly earn enough Merits to buy lower level Recipes is enormously disproportional to the cost for anything other than a Level 50 character (or a character that has stopped level advancement.)
*What is suppose to be the "Obvious" in-game difference between a Random Trial Recipe and a Random Taskforce Recipe other than cost? On what criteria should a player evaluate this in-game (beyond out-of-game web searching). Would it make more sense just to roll Trial and Taskforce into the same Rare Random Recipe Roll, rather than keep the now outmoded categorizations?
*How many levels of advancement would a character naturally progress through (non-power leveled, likes to do story arcs, occasionally teams, and does his/her/its Task/Strike Forces) to earn 100 merits? 250 merits? 500 merits? 1000 Merits? How would this natural level advancement affect how a character choose which recipes they would buy or could buy?
Subjective:
*I feel that if merits are too hard to come by during regular game play, that I will simply horde the merits til either I can earn a garanteed hard-to-get, marketed over-priced recipe that does not loose its character value as the character progresses (like a +Special Recipe), or keep all merits earned from levels 1 to 47, to simply spend them to help, flush out a level 50 build.
*I don't think it is realistic to use merits to acquire an IO Set, or a significant portion of an IO Set during regular level progression, which is something I think should be reasonablely achievable before outmoding the purchaced IOs.
*I really think that the Merit system has great potential, but adjustments need to be made. I understand that prices may be high now or Merit earnings are low because it is easier (i.e. better player reaction) to adjust merit earnings up and Merit prices down than vice versa.
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I want to feel like this is a wash and I have what I would have had anyway - but I don't. Instead I feel like I'm once again behind for no particular reason. I ran many of those arcs - why don't I have any more merits to show for it? In the past it wouldn't have mattered - but now it does (at least psychologically). Sure I could grind to catch up - I could run solo or go back via Oro and earn some merits - but why? Why should I have to do that? Is that really the intended effect of this system? If so, then for me at least it isn't working. It is reducing my enjoyment of the game, not increasing it. But I'm not much for formless whining, so what would I like to see done? What would it take for merits to at worst be neutral and at best improve my game experience (which I would like them to do)?
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Thank you you just summed up my biggest issue with the Merit Rewards System . Before you could play however you wanted to play to get the rewards you wanted now you have to jump through a lot of hoops and solo a lot to get on story arcs. I really don't like having to say no I can't team right now I don't have your arc.
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The primary thing is to figure out some way for folks who contribute to story arcs, but who for some reason or another don't complete their own arc, to get some level of merit reward. As I mentioned above, I'd probably feel fine (neutral) if I had recieved 1/2 the merits that the arc holder did and I'd feel great (positive) if I had gotten the same number.
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I just think the simplest answer would be to have the arcs totals divided up and awarded proportionately per mission to everyone.
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* One idea that I've seen for this is to open up Oro earlier - at the start of the level band instead of at the end of it. That might help, but I'm not sure that would work for a group like ours. As I said - we have folks coming and going at all points - having to wait for arc start points to add team members would be a constraint. But it would probably be better than it is now.
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Ouroborous needs help to begin with. I would like to see a way to add or remove members of a team every so often because most of the longer arcs become near impossible to complete with pick up teams. These arcs simply take too long to complete with pick up teams. I suppose I would like to see save points put in where a team leader can recruit new members and kick old ones who are offline. My namesake finished all of his mission arcs years ago and has to run anything but Tf's through Ouroborous. The flashback system makes teaming rough for anything but the smallest arcs.
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* Another step would be to allow more control over the contacts and the missions they give out. I'd have more merits today (and be happier) if that darned Shark's contact had given me the fraking arc mission instead of a bunch of drek. This is a long standing bug that in the past made no real difference - not so much now - it needs to be fixed.
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Here I think is the core problem with the merit system and story arcs. Hero side all of the expansion zones such as Striga, Croatoa, and RWZ the contact will talk to you without introduction but in the original content zones as well as all of villainside you have to get introduced and then run the right arc and jump through hoops ad nauseum to get to team and get merits. All of the contacts should act like they do in the hero side expansion zones. All of the contacts should offer you thier story arcs right away and the story arcs should be offered plainly and linearly. If the contact system was working in a compatible fashion with Merit rewards i don't think this would be a problem with anyone.
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* Another idea would be to spread the merit awards out and simply give them for each non-paper/mayhem mish. That would provide the most flexibility in team formation and encourage running contacts (as opposed to grinding papers/scanners).
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This is also a simple answer and one that is possibly worth the danger of merit farming. Not that I have a problem with merit farming. I think people should be allowed to play the way they want as long as it does not hurt anyone else. I could see a the Devs having a problem with people auto-completing through arcs and getting double merits but hey a few more merits isn't going to hurt me.
Master Gabriel
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I like the idea behind the system, the general concept is pretty appealing, but I just don't feel that it was implemented very well. It just seems... forced, sort of.
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I think you are correct in that the problem with Merit Rewards is no the concept but the implementation and interactions with other game systems. One of the great strengths of this game was that grouped or solo your mission or not everyone pretty much got proportionately the same rewards. Now everything goes to the arc holder. If I wanted City of soloing I would go play a console game.
Master Gabriel
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It may be that the Merits needed for Random Rolls is too high, or maybe it's about right and no one wants another Blood Mandate or Call of the Sandman over and over and over....
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The problem might also be that there are not enough pools to draw from and Pool C is too inundated with specialized junk that are not useful to 70% or more of the builds in play. The Pool System creates an artificial imbalance in supply and demand.
One can only assume that the devs want the player base to use merits and the market to IO out characters, otherwise why would the market still be here? The problem is the pools are too big a gamble.
I mean hero side there is no use for pet damage drops below level 32 yet there they are. According to Paragon Wiki Pool C (Taskforces) contains 103 different types of recipes yet most of those are very specific use. Compare that to the pool D list (Trials) which has 8 different recipes and they are all except the snipe generally considered useful. I think a good answer would be to combine pool C and Pool D and divide up the total into 5 categories. I would then give these pools a price based on the commonality of usage (which is largely subjective without intense data-mining)
The pools I would go with would be
Procs
contains all procs including Numina, celerity, etc...
cost 30 merits
offensive
contains melee damage, range damage, targeted AOE, PBAOE, Pet Damage, Sniper attacks
Cost 28 merits
Defensive / debuff
Contains healing, Accurate healing, damage resist, defense,
cost 30 merits
Debuff and control
to hit debuff, defense debuff, endurance modification, taunt
cost 20 merits
Mez effects
Confuse, Sleep, Slow, Immobilize, Holds, fears, stuns, Knockback
Cost 15 merits
By allowing players a choice of pool I think the artificial barriers to supply and demand can be eroded.
Master Gabriel
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*Cost Scaling versus Level (Excluding +Special Recipes): A Level 20 Acc/Dmg is not going to be as long term applicable to a character as a Level 30 Acc/Dmg, Level 40 Acc/Dmg, or Level 50 Acc/Dmg. Also, the time required to possibly earn enough Merits to buy lower level Recipes is enormously disproportional to the cost for anything other than a Level 50 character (or a character that has stopped level advancement.)
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I agree any set that caps under 50 (touch of death) or any recipe under level 30, except procs, should only be worth half as many merits as a level 50 IO recipe. The enhancement bonuses are significantly smaller or the set bonuses are usually not quite as good as a higher level set. these recipes definitely have a more limited lifespan than others and should be priced accordingly.
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*What is suppose to be the "Obvious" in-game difference between a Random Trial Recipe and a Random Taskforce Recipe other than cost? On what criteria should a player evaluate this in-game (beyond out-of-game web searching). Would it make more sense just to roll Trial and Taskforce into the same Rare Random Recipe Roll, rather than keep the now outmoded categorizations?
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I agree with your logic but come to a different conclusion. I would like to see the recipes divided up into 5 pools as per my previous post.
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*I feel that if merits are too hard to come by during regular game play, that I will simply horde the merits til either I can earn a garanteed hard-to-get, marketed over-priced recipe that does not loose its character value as the character progresses (like a +Special Recipe), or keep all merits earned from levels 1 to 47, to simply spend them to help, flush out a level 50 build.
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Right now hoarding for level 50 or + special recipes are the only cost effective uses for merits. Having the lower level sets is near useless because we can't afford them until we have outleveled them.
Master Gabriel
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Cyber, you're pulling numbers out of your behind. A level 50 could maybe make a couple million off a katie, but that's it, unless they got a really good drop.
Trust me, i farmed Katie dry. I NEVER made 50 mil in a single run. So just stop.
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You 'farmed katie dry' and never got a miracle unique or a lotg plus recharge? Those were available in the drop pool, so if the old system was still in place, then yes, you could make around 50 million in a 30 min task force. And there are a lot more recipes in that pool that will get you more than 'a couple million'. And I'm not pulling this from my 'behind'... you can see the recipes that were available in the pool on paragon wiki then check the prices at your local WW.
It doesn't take a mathematician to figure it out. Just using the katie TF as an example, before, you would get a chance at a good drop by running it just once. Now you have to run it 3 times for the same reward. Granted, the excessively long task forces now have better returns, but that's going to reward only the hardcore players who play 8 hours a day. The casual, or even average player, who doesn't have time to run the longer task forces, clearly will take a hit here.
And it will have other problematic effects as well, in regards to the market. Take the new obliteration io set for example. Go try to put together a set of those at WW and tell me how much it costs you. Better yet, tell me if you can even do it - I couldn't because some of them aren't even available. In the old system, people would be getting them in katie drops and putting them up on the market, meaning greater supply and lower prices.
I like the idea of merits, but it's going to make an already difficult task (io'ing out your toons) more difficult, and that's a really bad move, imo, because IO's make this game much more enjoyable, and even more so if I could actually use them easily. Again, using the obliteration example, looking at the prices and availability, it will be months before I can put a set together. That's just sad and disappointing to me as a customer.
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Cyber, you're pulling numbers out of your behind. A level 50 could maybe make a couple million off a katie, but that's it, [u]unless they got a really good drop.[u]
Trust me, i farmed Katie dry. I NEVER made 50 mil in a single run. So just stop.
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You could make 50 million off a Katie. Just not everytime. Remember he said "could" not "would".
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Exactly. Not sure how people read what I said as 'every time'. The same holds true for the new system, you won't get a good random recipe roll everytime with it either. Using the katie task force as an example, you now have to do three times the work to get the same reward, or chance of reward. And again, yes the really long task forces reward more now, but even the best ones don't have the same bang for the buck katies had, and katies were a big part of the engine that fueled the market, and one of the few tools the casual player had to get shots at the tf pool drops.
And sure, adding merits to regular mission arcs can help diminish that loss, and COULD even help make the loss disappear and even become a net gain, but that's only if you solo or force your team to only play your arcs, which clearly discourages teaming, which is another huge strength of this game and something that should be encouraged.
My suggestions would be to either lower the cost of recipes and random rolls. I also like the idea from a previous poster of rearranging the drop pools so people could at least pick from pools that will at least give them a chance of getting something they are aiming for and will actually benefit the toon rolling on said pool. And clearly the teaming issue needs to be addressed, so that everyone on the team is rewarded for helping with missions and arcs.
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Purely Subjective Feedback:
I feel that, like the rest of the game, the Merit Reward system if unfairly biased towards team play. This bothers me quite a bit for a simple reason; I don't play this game because I love MMORPGs, or video games, or socializing with a lot of people that I will very likely never see in real life -- I play it because I love comic books!
Now, go out to a comic store and count the number of comic books that star one character and compare that number of books that feature teams. While you're at it, look at the number of team books that have members who also have solo titles.
The solo books outnumber the others. I know this, as a comic book fan.
So how about you folks work on making it possible to play solo and reap rewards that are, if not comparative to those of constantly teaming, at least closer to equitable.
Please?
We aren't all team players, after all.
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I agree with you on this in that I always felt TF's should be open to solo players. Yes, I think teaming should be ENCOURAGED, but not forced as it is now with tf's requiring min team numbers.
(QR)
I think the salvage costs are too high. 30 Merits for a rare of a specific origin is too much.
Consider that the salvage drop rate is supposed to be one rare per hour, maybe less than that for very high levels. (Based on statements from Positron about filling your salvage capacity in an hour and based on the rarity scheme.) Comparing to the 5-minutes-per-merit we were told for TFs, that means I should expect salvage to be around 12 merits.
Cutting salvage costs to 10-15 merits would also bring it in line with the average selling cost on the market vs the average TF recipe cost. (not claiming there's a direct equation from market cost to merit cost, just saying it's clear salvage is not as valuable as recipes.)
I did a Itf today and one of the other players summed it up he did not get and KICK out of getting the merits like he did a random roll. I felt he is right ,it is like the season we are in now, how manyof us like the unexpected of the present in front of us, as compared to getttign a gift certificate? true the present could be lame but the surprise was there
Fluffy Bunny 1 Person SG
Rabid Bunny 1 Person VG
Both on Pinnacle
Hobbit's Hole 1 Person SG
Spider's Web 1 Person VG
Both on Freedom
just did posi again for the first time since the change to minimum team size was changed for the spawns... and it is not solo friendly anymore....
I still hate this tf and 55 merits is not enough.
YMMV---IMO
Ice Ember
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just did posi again for the first time since the change to minimum team size was changed for the spawns... and it is not solo friendly anymore....
I still hate this tf and 55 merits is not enough.
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What change to spawns?
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I mean hero side there is no use for pet damage drops below level 32 yet there they are.
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Actually, the new Recharge Intensive Pet recipe is usable at level 18 by Illusion controllers. The previously existing IO sets weren't particularly useful for Phantom Army, but Call to Arms is.
However, the real problem with using IO sets at level 18 is that characters are that level for a very brief time -- typically only a few hours of playing time.
It's only at level 25 or 30 where the bonuses granted by IO sets are good enough to warrant the time needed to acquire them. There are some lower-level sets worth getting and keeping long-term because of the set bonuses, if they can be augmented by common IOs or frankenslotting.
Don't suppose you guys might add merit rewards for newspaper/radio missions?
I really dislike story arcs, don't have time for TFs, and ... well. Other than the occasional GM or story arc I do for the accolade, I'm pretty much never going to get merits.
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just did posi again for the first time since the change to minimum team size was changed for the spawns... and it is not solo friendly anymore....
I still hate this tf and 55 merits is not enough.
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What change to spawns?
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For example, if you had 4 people on the team and all but one logged out, the missions would spawn for one person. NOW, in that situation, the missions will spawn for FOUR.
Therefore, when soloing Positron, it will always be spawning for two people since if the other person quit the TF it would disband. Previously, if they all logged out, it would spawn for just one. Under the new system, the spawn size only is reduced when people QUIT the TF.
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
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I just got a Miracle +recovery for 240 merits. I worked for a week to get the merits along with normal leveling with my spouse. In that same week I could not earn 50 million influence under normal grind/leveling. On top of that I am level 38 now and I was able to select a level 20 miracle +recovery so I can slot and use when I am exemped down to that level range.
I like the merits, they are a little low but I like the thought.
I would change how they are given tho. I agree story arcs are worthless unless your the team leader selecting your arcs. I would like to see 1 merit per mission in story arcs across the board, and a reward for finishing an arc. Badge missions merits, I currently dont know if you get merits for this. Police/Paper missions, 1 merit each for group. This way every group will slowly be building up merits for doing missions. You can bank them and spend them, or us AH for faster gains.
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If you played enough to earn 240 merits, then you would have earned at least 50 million with the old system. I seriously doubt you did that without doing some tf's.
I like the idea of merits, but it's still far too difficult to io up toons. There's a reason so many people farm and why the devs seem to think they need to spend so much time stopping the farmers, lol.