I think people are not thinking the whole merit thing all the way thru. They are thinking they are going to have to buy every single recipe in a build via merits. I dont think it will happen that way because we still get drops the normal way for the non-pool c and d drops. You are looking at most 2 recipes per power using merits. The rest you can get from the market. I dont see it going too crazy on the market because merits will be a price cap of sorts so the pool a's and b's wont be going up that far. Pool D is a no brainer to choose random roll cuz most stuff in that pool is already good. So really what is going to boil down to is about 500 merits per power thats six slotted with a full set. Many powers dont even benefit good from set IOs so franken slotting or HOs will be prefered for those.
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
[ QUOTE ]
ROFL the poison gas trap proc spawning ? (Btw are those corruptors going to be able to repick traps for something else ?)
[/ QUOTE ] I hate to say this but what they were doing with traps was a bit sick, that needed to be nerfed seriously.
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
[ QUOTE ]
I think pool C recipes will disappear completely from the redside market, bluesides will just skyrocket in price.
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Keep in mind the Random Pool C roll will be a better deal in I13. There are two recipes in each of the new IO sets in Pool C, including things like Basilisk's Gaze (Quad will be VERY popular), Eradication and Obliteration (PBAoE Damage procs), and all the new categories. I MIGHT start pulling random rolls with my alts for the IOs I need.
Deamus the Fallen - 50 DM/EA Brute - Lib
Dragos Bahtiam - 50 Fire/Ice Blaster - Lib
/facepalm - Apply Directly to the Forehead!
Formally Dragos_Bahtiam - Abbreviate to DSL - Warning, may contain sarcasm
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Originally Posted by Shubbie
Im very good at taking a problem and making it worse.
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[ QUOTE ]
This is the pretty simple truth of the matter. Instead of trying to make the old TFs appealing to play by making them fun, they try to bribe us into playing them. I'm sorry, but you can't bribe me enough to bother with a Citadel or Positron TF. Those are pure tedium. I play the game to have fun.
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Has anyone actualy considered starting an unofficial/official Task/Strike Force Issues topic?
When you are the creator of something, it's not easy to grasp what the problem is because you tend to enjoy what you created.
Get some kind if list going as to what's wrong with the Task/Strike Forces pointing out what's so unfun about them or bogging down the entertainment value. Time is apparently valuable and they have to spend alot of it figuring out new stuff and little working the old. Give a focus and you cut down the time needed to figure out what the problem is. The cure to the problem may be harder to fix though because not everything has a simple solution. Or the preceeved simple solution is not as easy as one would think.
Don't like defeat all's... well getting rid of them may not be the solution as it fits with the goal of the story line. Maybe put in greater threats then just the mob(s) in question like special Elite Bosses you can only see during that taskforce or specificly that/those missions of the taskforce roaming with the packs.
'It's boring, fix it' doesn't really give alot of ideas and taking certian things away may defeat the purpose they had.
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Not only that, a hero can run Positron TF at level 10 and get 55 merits. Then Synapse at 15 and get 45 for a total of 100 TF merits. A young villain has the opportunity to get a whopping 10 SF merits by level 15.
That is absurd.
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I agree with your basic point (heroes have more low level opportunities for big merits), but realistically with the way exp works now, doing Positron normally (i.e. in a group actually running the TF) will level you to 15 and doing Synapse will get you to 19-20.
So you'll get your 100 merits, but miss other content along the way including the awesome Faultline arcs.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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You are looking at most 2 recipes per power using merits.
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Three, actually, at least if you are slotting the whole six-piece set. There are a handful of sets that include two TF and one trial recipe.
"Home is where, when you have to go there, they have to let you in."
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That said, we'll also be looking at ways to further grow and enhance our merit reward system over the life of the game. So, what you'll be seeing in Issue 13 launch is not the final version of this system. Like any system in our game, we will continuously improve upon and enhance these systems in the future.
So, as soon as we have some details for you about what changes will be made we will share them with you.
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That's fine. Let me know when you have your act together, and I will re-sub.
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Not only that, a hero can run Positron TF at level 10 and get 55 merits. Then Synapse at 15 and get 45 for a total of 100 TF merits. A young villain has the opportunity to get a whopping 10 SF merits by level 15.
That is absurd.
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I agree with your basic point (heroes have more low level opportunities for big merits), but realistically with the way exp works now, doing Positron normally (i.e. in a group actually running the TF) will level you to 15 and doing Synapse will get you to 19-20.
So you'll get your 100 merits, but miss other content along the way including the awesome Faultline arcs.
[/ QUOTE ]
So, you could run flashbacks and get even more merits.
This system is penalizing villains for the mistakes of the previous administration.
"Sorry bucko, but CoH and CoV are the same game." -BackAlleyBrawler
"Silly villain, CoX is for Heroes!" -Saicho
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'It's boring, fix it' doesn't really give alot of ideas and taking certian things away may defeat the purpose they had.
[/ QUOTE ]
I mentioned 2 TFs and I will comment on those.
Positron has been analyzed to death on these forums as to why it sucks. It involves too many missions, with little in the way of a coherent story. There's too much travel, and too many kill alls. I could probably do a search and find a score of threads on why Positron sucks. If the devs haven't cared to read the plethora of complaints on it, I don't need to start another thread to be ignored.
Citadel is very simple why it is lousy. It's the same damn enemies continually on the same damn maps. One council base after another with little in the way of variety of missions. There's pretty much nothing interesting about it at all. I suppose I should give in and do Citadel because it is an easy TF to be quite honest, but the tedium kills me. I haven't done it since i4 or so, and I'm pretty happy with that.
Compare Citadel with the Ernesto Hess TF. Those are in the same level range with the same enemies. Hess is easily one of the best TFs in the game with a variety of maps and challenges. Considering you have those two TFs in direct competition, it should be manifestly obvious as to why Citadel simply sucks.
Too many alts to list.
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no one will wanna pay the huge prices on recipes, they will dry up and no one will want to waste merits on random rolls when they won't be able to sell them for high,
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Does anyone else see the fundamental contradiction here? I've seen many statements from people that "Pool C will shoot through the roof" and that "nobody will take random rolls because they are worthless".
Those things can't BOTH be true.
And to people who are betting that LotG prices will go up from where they were before merits, I'd be happy to take that bet. I see no possible way prices on those would go up from where they are with a combination of some demand satisfied (buying with merits) and some increased supply (speed merit farmers reselling the most valuable recipes in the markets).
And I'm happy with the "more than one random roll" increased reward for most of the TFs/SFs, I like to do a variety because its more interesting, now I'll feel that I'm being better compensated for spending that extra time. Yet because they didn't go the route of "fixing" the short ones to make them take longer, I still have that option if I don't have much time.
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You are looking at most 2 recipes per power using merits.
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Three, actually, at least if you are slotting the whole six-piece set. There are a handful of sets that include two TF and one trial recipe.
[/ QUOTE ]The reason I said 2 is because you would just buy the pool d's from the market as well because the random roll for that one isnt too bad.
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
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So you'll get your 100 merits, but miss other content along the way including the awesome Faultline arcs.
[/ QUOTE ]
So I'll get 100 merits and 9-10 levels of exp, at the cost of skipping arcs that I can go back and do for merits later and dealing with CoT, Vahz, and Clockwork - all of which are really fun to confuse?
I'm not seeing how gaining even more levels is a problem, here.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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[ QUOTE ]
I think people are not thinking the whole merit thing all the way thru. They are thinking they are going to have to buy every single recipe in a build via merits. I dont think it will happen that way because we still get drops the normal way for the non-pool c and d drops. You are looking at most 2 recipes per power using merits. The rest you can get from the market. I dont see it going too crazy on the market because merits will be a price cap of sorts so the pool a's and b's wont be going up that far. Pool D is a no brainer to choose random roll cuz most stuff in that pool is already good. So really what is going to boil down to is about 500 merits per power thats six slotted with a full set. Many powers dont even benefit good from set IOs so franken slotting or HOs will be prefered for those.
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No, I'm quite aware of that Ryu. But the problem is that certain Pool Cs will likely be much harder to obtain. An example is the stealth IOs.
Basically I buy one of these for every character I have, Tanker, Blaster, whatever. The only character I haven't is my Illusion controller for obvious reasons. I have never paid more than 5 million for any of these.
There is simply no way they will be 5 million after long. I'm thinking conservatively they'll double in price, if they're available at all. It's not all about the LoTG 7.5%, but it will be after merits because people will be saving to ensure that they get what they want.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
Sigh...I swear, if these I13 threads had any more Doom in them we'd be citizens of Latveria :P
The more people I meet, the more I'm beginning to root for the zombies.
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I think people are not thinking the whole merit thing all the way thru. They are thinking they are going to have to buy every single recipe in a build via merits. I dont think it will happen that way because we still get drops the normal way for the non-pool c and d drops. You are looking at most 2 recipes per power using merits. The rest you can get from the market. I dont see it going too crazy on the market because merits will be a price cap of sorts so the pool a's and b's wont be going up that far. Pool D is a no brainer to choose random roll cuz most stuff in that pool is already good. So really what is going to boil down to is about 500 merits per power thats six slotted with a full set. Many powers dont even benefit good from set IOs so franken slotting or HOs will be prefered for those.
[/ QUOTE ]
No, I'm quite aware of that Ryu. But the problem is that certain Pool Cs will likely be much harder to obtain. An example is the stealth IOs.
Basically I buy one of these for every character I have, Tanker, Blaster, whatever. The only character I haven't is my Illusion controller for obvious reasons. I have never paid more than 5 million for any of these.
There is simply no way they will be 5 million after long. I'm thinking conservatively they'll double in price, if they're available at all. It's not all about the LoTG 7.5%, but it will be after merits because people will be saving to ensure that they get what they want.
[/ QUOTE ]How do you figure? If anything the prices will go down. In order for it to sell it has to be lower otherwise folks will use merits to get it. Merits means basically they cant price gouge anymore at least on non-purples. Even still its not like you going to need multiples of these. At most you will need is 2 depending on if you use dual builds or not. I still dont see the problem here. If the cost is still an issue just run 10 ITFs and you got it, and you can use the money you would have spent on said overpriced IO to get something else.
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
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[ QUOTE ]
So you'll get your 100 merits, but miss other content along the way including the awesome Faultline arcs.
[/ QUOTE ]
So I'll get 100 merits and 9-10 levels of exp, at the cost of skipping arcs that I can go back and do for merits later and dealing with CoT, Vahz, and Clockwork - all of which are really fun to confuse?
I'm not seeing how gaining even more levels is a problem, here.
[/ QUOTE ]
Or You could run Posi, go to Faultline, then run Synapse.
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A: We will be monitoring this. We want to make sure that a villain doing missions from 1 to 50 will be earning roughly the same amount of merits a hero can earn. If we find a serious imbalance between heroes and villains in the number of earnable merits, well look at ways of improving this.
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Yo Synapse, no need to monitor. Heroes have a HUGE advantage.
"Sorry bucko, but CoH and CoV are the same game." -BackAlleyBrawler
"Silly villain, CoX is for Heroes!" -Saicho
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Does anyone else see the fundamental contradiction here? I've seen many statements from people that "Pool C will shoot through the roof" and that "nobody will take random rolls because they are worthless".
[/ QUOTE ]
I disagree that pool C will shoot through the roof, except for the desirable recipes that are already somewhat valuable.
There will continue to be little to no demand for most of the pool C sets, simply because they're in rare powers (Sleep, Confuse, Fear, Teleport, heroside Pet Damage) or powers that are frequently skipped and/or if taken hardly ever slotted (Snipes, Taunt). Those will remain low in price - often less than what vendors will pay villainside - and still take up a large percentage of the pool C recipes.
So yes, the random roll isn't worth it for many people; the high-end recipes (Numi, Miracle, LotG) will likely stay close to where they are in value and some of the others will rise, and speedrunning high merit-per-hour runs and buying them will get you those faster than multiple rolls will; depending on what the value goes up to for things like Posi's Blast, Scirocco's Dervish, or the Celerity or Unbound Leap stealth recipes goes to it may be more worthwhile to aim for a Numi/Miracle/LotG and just sell it on the market for inf. 
Quote:
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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[ QUOTE ]
Does anyone else see the fundamental contradiction here? I've seen many statements from people that "Pool C will shoot through the roof" and that "nobody will take random rolls because they are worthless".
Those things can't BOTH be true.
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, consider the fact that a large portion (possibly not the majority) of the game's population does not join TFs. Now, at some point these characters may want to start acquiring IO sets. Where are they going to get the pool C recipes? From the market. Who's going to be selling them? The people who have already completed all their IO sets and are simply burning merits on recipes [u]that people want[u], not on random rolls. The price tag? I guarantee it will be high. The people selling those recipes will want to be compensated for the boredom of grinding TFs to supply others with pool C recipes.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Does anyone else see the fundamental contradiction here? I've seen many statements from people that "Pool C will shoot through the roof" and that "nobody will take random rolls because they are worthless".
Those things can't BOTH be true.
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, consider the fact that a large portion (possibly not the majority) of the game's population does not join TFs. Now, at some point these characters may want to start acquiring IO sets. Where are they going to get the pool C recipes? From the market. Who's going to be selling them? The people who have already completed all their IO sets and are simply burning merits on recipes [u]that people want[u], not on random rolls. The price tag? I guarantee it will be high. The people selling those recipes will want to be compensated for the boredom of grinding TFs to supply others with pool C recipes.
[/ QUOTE ]
QFT. I suspect even the TF grinders will get demoralized around grinding out thier 3 or 4th LoTG and just want a release. A 100 million inf. release! 
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
[ QUOTE ]
One thing I'd suggest is rejiggering the pools.
First, all the recipes that make most people go "Damn, I got a...", put those in Pool A or Pool B. Trap of the Hunter, etc.
Then, break up all the rest into three groups...useful to most, very useful to most, highly prized. Random rolls for useful to most stays at 20, very useful to most at 40, highly prized to 80.
That way, the not useful to most players stuff goes back to random drops and the market gets them, and there's a real incentve to take a random roll.
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I like this suggestion. If my memory is correct, at some point a redname told us that Pool C was designed to be a lottery, where most of the time you get junk and every once in a while you get a shiny.
Well, now we've got merits. Why continue diluting the pool if the original design goal is no longer relevant for (if the forums are to be believed) the majority of the player base?
Move every mez, snipe, taunt, and debuff recipe into Pool A.
/signed
Or, to put it in Q&A terms:
Synapse, have you considered moving the recipes that people do not like getting as TF rewards into a different pool, in order to maintain availability and incentivize the random roll further? Bumping the cost of a random roll back up to 25 would probably be necessary, of course, but that would be all right based on the logic you've laid out for Pool D rewards.
My postings to this forum are not to be used as data in any research study without my express written consent.
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Does anyone else see the fundamental contradiction here? I've seen many statements from people that "Pool C will shoot through the roof" and that "nobody will take random rolls because they are worthless".
Those things can't BOTH be true.
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, consider the fact that a large portion (possibly not the majority) of the game's population does not join TFs. Now, at some point these characters may want to start acquiring IO sets. Where are they going to get the pool C recipes? From the market. Who's going to be selling them? The people who have already completed all their IO sets and are simply burning merits on recipes [u]that people want[u], not on random rolls. The price tag? I guarantee it will be high. The people selling those recipes will want to be compensated for the boredom of grinding TFs to supply others with pool C recipes.
[/ QUOTE ]I see more people doing tf/sfs more than ever once this goes live. People will have a reason to run it other than the badge. If tfs suddenly become worth more people's time this will make things overall easier and will take some of the demand directly off the market. I just think people will look back on this 2 months from now and be like, all the doomsaying was all for nothing.
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
[ QUOTE ]
Why have diminished returns anyway? Who cares if people run 15 ITFs in a row. They're playing the game. You're already basing the # of merits on the results of whatever datamining you've done.
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Indeed. If some number of Merits is fair for this task, why should it matter if I just did the same task on the same character, on another character, on another account, or the very last moment that character was logged in 2 days ago?
If my friends want to run a STF and need a Defender, I don't want to tell them "sorry guys, just ran with m Defender this afternoon, how bout a Blaster instead?"
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no one will wanna pay the huge prices on recipes, they will dry up and no one will want to waste merits on random rolls when they won't be able to sell them for high,
[/ QUOTE ]
Does anyone else see the fundamental contradiction here? I've seen many statements from people that "Pool C will shoot through the roof" and that "nobody will take random rolls because they are worthless".
Those things can't BOTH be true.
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Actually, yes they can. You just don't seem to understand why.
Ok, let's look at this simply. What do you do on the market? You buy stuff of course. Some of the most desirable stuff is the pool C goodies. That would be LotG, Miracle, etc. These are currently only gained via random drop from a pool full of crap. Right now the medium of exchange for those goodies is influence(infamy). If someone finds one and decides to sell it, they can score in the moolah. However you do have different people with different needs. If Joe scrapper wants a Numina's + regen, but gets a LotG instead, he can sell off the latter to buy the former. This makes the item available on the market. However in the brave new merit world, he doesn't need to do that. He's going to eschew the random rolls since the chances suck, and just save up for what he specifically wants. Then while he will get the Numina's that he wants, nobody will have a shot at the LotG. The random rolls are just too crappy a chance for pool C to be worth it. Most of the pool ranges from so-so to crap. Hence people are going to buy the specific pool C stuff they want via merits. Those who don't(or can't) TF enough to earn a bunch of merits will still want to be able to get the nice pool C stuff and will bid a pretty penny for them.
The problem with the merit system is that is is de-coupling the rewards from the market supply. Instead of an individual trying to just stockpile influence to get what they want, there are now two mediums of exchange. One is in a controlled price market, where the medium is not transferable. The other is a variable price market with a lot of exchange medium available. People who can will use the fixed price medium to get what they want. They won't contribute things to the market which involve this medium since it's more valuable because of the fixed prices.
If I spend 200 merits to get a LotG today, then sell it for 100M influence. What will I think if the LotG goes up on the market to 200M when I need a LotG? I'll think I'm a damned dolt and should have just held onto the merits for when I needed it. Merits are a medium of exchange immune to fluctuations of the market, and influence inflation. I'll sure as heck horde them instead of influence.
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And to people who are betting that LotG prices will go up from where they were before merits, I'd be happy to take that bet. I see no possible way prices on those would go up from where they are with a combination of some demand satisfied (buying with merits) and some increased supply (speed merit farmers reselling the most valuable recipes in the markets).
[/ QUOTE ]
Why would those speed merit farmers resell things? If I engage in speed merit farming, it will be solely to deck out my own alts. Also, why would those merit farmers not charge an arm and a leg if they did want to sell the recipes? They will control the supply. Demand will be set by the poor schleps who don't have time for TFs.
Too many alts to list.
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Yes, you gave miniscule rewards on story arcs (only the owner), while making some of the main supply sources in the game worth less than a random roll.
People are saying that it's a reduction in rewards, because it is. Return the random roll as a choice to all TFs and watch people magically stop saying that.
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I agree on this part. I do not like the fact that you are taking away my choices for a reward. If anything you should give me the option to take what I would rather have.
I run Katie's all the time with my SG (most of the time we have to log multiple account in to start as its not always easy to find players when we are on) and we very rarely get a drop we want (1 good drop every 6 to 10 runs) but its not like we run Katie's all day long. Most of the time we run a longer TF and if we still feel up to it we run a Katie after before calling it a day.
This wont stop us from running Katie as we do not do it for the drops (since they suck most of the time) we do it for the fun, but taking away the crappy recipes that we do get will mean that ppl like us who also play the market will no longer be putting these units up for sale and if no one has noticed lately the market is already drying up. I'm having a hard time finding common items on Justice that would normally be common place. So when you add duel builds and we all start hording our drops the market will just get worse.
Guess I'm just rambling now but let me say again that I would rather have the option to pick what I want then to have the option taken away. This will make many ppl happy!
I think pool C recipes will disappear completely from the redside market, bluesides will just skyrocket in price.