There currently appears to be a bug in the Diminishing returns from Multiple TFs. The way it was presented each specific TF that is run again within 24 hours was to have their merits halved. What has been reported happening on several TF teams is that after running a Positron TF for full merits (55), running a Synapse TF awarded half merits (22).
Some folks have reported that in Petition responses it has been acknowledged as a bug. Others report WAI.
I hope this gets straightened out soon.
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The Pool C and D recipes weren't previously available to players who didn't do TFs and trials, except through consignment houses. Did that mean that the game was City of TFs before? Those recipes are now available to players who don't do TFs and trials.
The diminished rate now is better than the no rate I had previously.
People who didn't do TFs and trials before are probably going to be even less interested in doing them now. I know that's the case for me.
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Perhaps accolades and badges should also be available at the merit store.
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Perhaps accolades and badges should also be available at the merit store.
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I'm not greedy. I just want some of those TF costume items to be available. 
I would like to know why we can't have the choice of either a number of merits or a random roll for a rare recipe at the end of a TF/SF. You could replace the useless SO choice - which nobody ever wants since the invention system was released - with Merits instead. I hate the fact that we no longer get to choose.
There is always a lot to be thankful for, if you take the time to look. For example, I'm sitting here thinking how nice it is that wrinkles don't hurt. ~Author Unknown
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I would like to know why we can't have the choice of either a number of merits or a random roll for a rare recipe at the end of a TF/SF.
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Synapse answered this in post #2 of this thread.
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Poster: macskull
Q: What is the intent and purpose of the merit system? Originally it seemed intended to be an alternate, additional, avenue for those who did not wish to use the market, or for a deterministic way to get a recipe you wanted. Now it seems like it's replacing the current system instead of adding onto it.
A: The basic intent for the Merit Reward system is to more accurately reward players for their time invested doing missions. Ultimately, what it came down to is that not all Task Forces and Strike Forces were created equal. Some take 30 minutes, some can take upwards of 10 hours. The fact that all of these Task Forces had been granting the same reward made us realize we needed to incorporate time into the reward equation. Thats essentially where Merits came in.
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The devs wanted everyone to get more recipe drop reward from doing a long TF than from doing a short TF. If they left the system as "random recipe or X merits", then only players saving to buy specific recipes would get more reward from longer TFs. Players taking random rolls would get the same reward from long TFs as from short TFs. The devs didn't want it to work that way.
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I would like to know why we can't have the choice of either a number of merits or a random roll for a rare recipe at the end of a TF/SF.
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Synapse answered this in post #2 of this thread.
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Poster: macskull
Q: What is the intent and purpose of the merit system? Originally it seemed intended to be an alternate, additional, avenue for those who did not wish to use the market, or for a deterministic way to get a recipe you wanted. Now it seems like it's replacing the current system instead of adding onto it.
A: The basic intent for the Merit Reward system is to more accurately reward players for their time invested doing missions. Ultimately, what it came down to is that not all Task Forces and Strike Forces were created equal. Some take 30 minutes, some can take upwards of 10 hours. The fact that all of these Task Forces had been granting the same reward made us realize we needed to incorporate time into the reward equation. Thats essentially where Merits came in.
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The devs wanted everyone to get more recipe drop reward from doing a long TF than from doing a short TF. If they left the system as "random recipe or X merits", then only players saving to buy specific recipes would get more reward from longer TFs. Players taking random rolls would get the same reward from long TFs as from short TFs. The devs didn't want it to work that way.
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so use the data mining and add purples as a seperate drop pool on tf's that avg over 4 hours.
Dear Positron,
Would you be so kind as to please change or petition to change the game in this manner: set recipes are no longer dropped by any defeated enemies.
So the only way a person can get their hands on that LotG is by merit vendor or through WWs once someone else has bought the LotG through Merit vendor.
Please force unto the community the need to co-op. No more cries for "fillers" and "mentors".
How to address the PL aspect of the game...unfortunately only one solution: you can only sk up to a max of 5 lvl difference or so. So no more lvl 1s running around PI.
Thy will be done.
Thank you.
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Poster: TheWeaver
Q: What impact are you expecting the merit system to have on those of us who (for one reason or another) tend not to run TF/SF's?
A: The intention of the system was to also give players who dont tend to run Task Forces and Strike Forces the chance at earning the same high end rewards as players normally running Task Forces, however at a diminished rate. This gives player an opportunity to earn rewards they normally would not have had access to outside of the Black Market/Wentworths.
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Unbelievable. This game has now officially become City Of TFs.
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The Pool C and D recipes weren't previously available to players who didn't do TFs and trials, except through consignment houses. Did that mean that the game was City of TFs before? Those recipes are now available to players who don't do TFs and trials.
The diminished rate now is better than the no rate I had previously.
People who didn't do TFs and trials before are probably going to be even less interested in doing them now. I know that's the case for me.
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See area high-lighted.
They were available and I was able to afford just about anything I wanted, except perhaps the the top three. Rather than just offer us an alternate method to get recipes, it seems they've deliberately gutted the ease of getting them through the markets, leaving us with running several TFs only. This side road may be a faster shortcut, but they didn't have dismantle the rest of highway system to build it.
(I think the devs have monkeyed around with drop rates for ALL recipes, now it seems to be mostly generic IOs vs. set IOs, so this change might be another part of that; maybe they decided we had too much freedom to set-out a toon... if so, then this isn't just about merits as it is about their backtracking on the availability of IO sets - but that's another thread.)
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Dear Positron,
Would you be so kind as to please change or petition to change the game in this manner: set recipes are no longer dropped by any defeated enemies.
So the only way a person can get their hands on that LotG is by merit vendor or through WWs once someone else has bought the LotG through Merit vendor.
Please force unto the community the need to co-op. No more cries for "fillers" and "mentors".
How to address the PL aspect of the game...unfortunately only one solution: you can only sk up to a max of 5 lvl difference or so. So no more lvl 1s running around PI.
Thy will be done.
Thank you.
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Bolding above is my emphasis.
OK. Seriously, Positron, this is an ISSUE. My RL BFF and I played about total of 16 hours the last 4 days. We played some 48-50 and some 20-25lvl characters.
Aside from 1 purple, I received ZERO set drops, Brad received 2 purples and ZERO pool A&B.
So, my question is, why were the drop rates for A&B changed, and why were we not informed.
EVERY other recipe I got, was a standard IO recipe. On my level 22 controller, I got zero recipes no IO, no temp power (like ethereal shift), no pool A/B, this was on 7 hours of play. ZERO recipes on 7 hours of story arc and police scanner play. All I got were crappy DO's and salvage (and merits for story arcs in Striga).
The mathematical probability of this happening pre i13 to 2 people would have been astronomical! The only logical explanation is enemies recipe drop rate has changed.
Furthermore, upon discussion in game, and review on the boards I'm not the only one who has seen this issue.
So where did the pool A/B drops go?
I'm hoping it's a bug, but I'm assuming it was a nerf.
The mathematical probability of this happening pre i13 to 2 people would have been astronomical! The only logical explanation is enemies recipe drop rate has changed.
I can't say I've noticed any change in A and B drops.
Bit of a funny story here. I started my Fire/Shield Scrapper Ghostblaze on Infinity when i13 rolled out. Our SG there didn't have any Halloween salvage racked but I really wanted to get a second costume done by the time he had Fly. The Dark shield, while very nice-looking, has a huge "contrail" effect that makes it difficult to see where you're going when flying or in narrow tunnels. So I did something I don't normally do: I transfered a million from my main on Virtue via the CH so Ghostblaze could buy his salvage.
Just as I turned it in, someone announced a costume contest in Atlas starting in five minutes. I bolted over...and took second place, a cool 3 million inf prize. Go figure.
But as if that wasn't enough, on Sunday when I visited Serge to get my level 20 costume mission, I took out some green Outcasts that agroed on me when I landed...and the last one dropped a level 18 Steadfast -KB. Which sold for just over 10 million after fees.
I've gotten a number of other set drops, both A's and B's, on the characters I've been actually playing (mainly Ghostblaze, and my main on Virtue, for whom I'm working on an alternate build). I can't say I could see any difference in drop rates. As for the probability that you would both be skunked, it's really not all that unlikely. Streaks like that are inevitable.
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The mathematical probability of this happening pre i13 to 2 people would have been astronomical! The only logical explanation is enemies recipe drop rate has changed.
I can't say I've noticed any change in A and B drops.
Bit of a funny story here. I started my Fire/Shield Scrapper Ghostblaze on Infinity when i13 rolled out. Our SG there didn't have any Halloween salvage racked but I really wanted to get a second costume done by the time he had Fly. The Dark shield, while very nice-looking, has a huge "contrail" effect that makes it difficult to see where you're going when flying or in narrow tunnels. So I did something I don't normally do: I transfered a million from my main on Virtue via the CH so Ghostblaze could buy his salvage.
Just as I turned it in, someone announced a costume contest in Atlas starting in five minutes. I bolted over...and took second place, a cool 3 million inf prize. Go figure.
But as if that wasn't enough, on Sunday when I visited Serge to get my level 20 costume mission, I took out some green Outcasts that agroed on me when I landed...and the last one dropped a level 18 Steadfast -KB. Which sold for just over 10 million after fees.
I've gotten a number of other set drops, both A's and B's, on the characters I've been actually playing (mainly Ghostblaze, and my main on Virtue, for whom I'm working on an alternate build). I can't say I could see any difference in drop rates. As for the probability that you would both be skunked, it's really not all that unlikely. Streaks like that are inevitable.
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You could be right. BUT for 2 people on 2 different acounts at the same time. Its posible but seems unlikely 
I finished a Task Force and felt let down, disappointed. I miss the appearance of the reward pop up window. For me the pop up window signified the completion of the Task Force and gave me a sense of control by choosing a reward of my choice. And, socially it was fun to flaunt the miracle recovery drop or the pace of the Turtle!
I am also an avid fan of Wentworths which is threatened by the merit system. Or is it
(lol) Fortunately, the designers have a merit price for recipes that is unusually high. For example at 200 merits you would have to do 8 ITF just to get one out of a six set enhancement (can anyone say time sink?). And, at the same time they have taken away the random drops that supply Wentworths which in turn keep prices low. Wentworths is now unbalanced and a sellers market!
Summing it up, the designers have taken away the sense of accomplishment at the end of Task forces and made it harder to obtain recipe sets for your main build, never mind the second one!
My solution is to balance out the reward system and Wentworths. Wentworths is pure economics or supply and demand. If you bring back the popup window at the end of a Task force to include random recipe drops, merit rewards, rare salvage, and enhancements you give a player a sense of completion and control. The players will then able to share the chosen reward with his/her teammates and go on their merry way. If random recipe drops are selected they should be based on the old criteria with one exception as follows: Tie the random drop to demand at Wentworths. This can be done simply by capturing the market demand at the daily reboot shutdown. Then on reboot automatically assign a multiplier based upon the captured demand to make it more likely that the high demand recipes will drop. Finally, cut all merit prices in half. Lets get real guys, you want people to play. You want the revenue stream from current players to continue so give the players what they want!
The end result of my suggested changes will be easier access to recipes for both builds per toon. And, Wentworths will still be fun for those of us enjoying the market. Yes the 70,000,000 million sells will disappear as the market adjusts to the new availabilities but there will still be unmet demand to met allowing for savvy players to gain influence!
No matter what you do, please, please contact the nearest universitys economic department. Get a grad student in economics to evaluate the supply and demand features of the game. They will do this for free as an internship if presented properly too.
i love the merit system, but i just dont understand why you folks have surpressed the reciepi drops ?
every blue moon we would play and during the game to our surprise a hecatomb purple would drop. Now if you get anything at all it might me a io reciepi or something useless like the lowest priced pace of the turtle.
Really hurt the game in my opinon and it really lower the over all fun value.
They have done nothing, as far as I know, to pool A, B, and E drops.
A is NPC defeat, and that is where the purples, all of them, lie.
B is mission complete, 10% non-cumulative chance.
E is the minion defeat, this is where all the costume pieces are.
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When can we expect to see this merit system fixed? The games no longer rewarding or fun. There's no point to running missions with others. It's best to stealth as much of our own arcs as possible in the shortest amount of time. I don't even run TF's any longer I just solo arcs in OB and so far I have 744 merits. I no longer play other toons because I want the merits all on one toon. I was going to make new toons and get the expanded character slots but now there is no point. I don't even use WW any longer because I can get more for the trash that drops from a NPC. I used to sell reward IO's to fund my purples, but that's out the window now too, and I might see one purple drop in 6 months because I do not farm. Guess now I have to make fire/kins and farm all the time to get the purples I wanted for my toons.
*claps*
Good job.
what I am wondering is why are there standard SOs in the merit vendors? why spend merits whichare so hard to get (other than tf) on something that you can buy at a store or WW/BM. one reason I can think is they are slowly going to phase out inf/imf as a way to stop RMT,
Fluffy Bunny 1 Person SG
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Spider's Web 1 Person VG
Both on Freedom
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what I am wondering is why are there standard SOs in the merit vendors?
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The third question answered this.
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Poster: KeepDistance
Q: Would you consider removing items from the merit purchase system that already have direct-inf purchase availability through vendors? (Specifically, I mean SOs and common IO recipes.) If not, what do you see as the benefit to offering them through merits?
A: We understand that there are some players who prefer to not use the invention system at all, so wed like the Merit Reward system to mean something for these players too. Common IO recipes are there for players who dont like to worry about IO sets.
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I'm adding I've stopped doing TF's since pointless for 25 merits of nothingness etc. I've canceled my family's 3 accounts too
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Poster: TheWeaver
Q: What impact are you expecting the merit system to have on those of us who (for one reason or another) tend not to run TF/SF's?
A: The intention of the system was to also give players who dont tend to run Task Forces and Strike Forces the chance at earning the same high end rewards as players normally running Task Forces, however at a diminished rate. This gives player an opportunity to earn rewards they normally would not have had access to outside of the Black Market/Wentworths.
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Unbelievable. This game has now officially become City Of TFs.
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The Pool C and D recipes weren't previously available to players who didn't do TFs and trials, except through consignment houses. Did that mean that the game was City of TFs before? Those recipes are now available to players who don't do TFs and trials.
The diminished rate now is better than the no rate I had previously.
People who didn't do TFs and trials before are probably going to be even less interested in doing them now. I know that's the case for me.
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I have avoided TF/SFs for years unless I had played with other characters regularly, who then wanted to try one out.
Aside from those groups of aquaintances, the T/S Forces invariably failed.
So I just haven't participated, I would just do missions in my line, or radio/papers (*and since there is almost no threat in any PVP area I complete Warburg missions.)
Now tthree things are happening:
1) I am being told by all contacts to go and see Dark Watcher, I have completed his line.
2) I am told by Dark Watcher to see Lady Grey, who only offers Task Forces.
3) I hate FirebaseZulu. (<<<<All of My characters hate)
So I have been joining more Task Forces (on Liberty) and succeeding. There seems to be a greater interest in completeing the Tasks and players dedicated to getting them done. The Team realizes that if it is not working out they can stop this failing Task and go start a LGTF, or ITF.
There are few I/O recipees that I have not been able to get from the markets.
So the Vender Merits for me are only slightly more valuable because thay can be used as a means to get something that is usefull.
Unlike the Vanguard Merits sitting around after buying the salvage storage, they are almost useless.
So....it seems that it is becomming COTF.
My interest hasn't increased, but because of items 1-3 above, the success rate has been much higher now than they used to be when the game first started.
*waves at UPWARD, a frequent TF teammember (post above)*
I find myself joining the merit march. I'm doing a LGTF or ITF almost every day now, speed or otherwise, usually on my "merit earner" (Rad/Rad Defender 50).
The market is even less friendly now than it was just a few weeks ago, it seems. I'm trying to fill out builds for several characters in their low 40s and I'm one of those people who don't need to maximize everything as a level 50 recipe. I'm sitting on almost 200 mil influence on Liberty and there is very little to buy that I want or am willing to spend that on (I consider 100 mil for a purple recipe to be ridiculous).
The "questions" that have not been answered for me:
1. Was this severe an impact on the markets a developer intention (drying up of midlevel recipes, driving up of prices, reduction in overall recipe supply).
2. Was this severe an impact on IOing out characters the developer intention?
3. Was merit grinding a desired behavior by developers?
4. Was speed running a desired behavior by developers?
Yes, I am serious about all of these questions, because the current implementation seems, to me, to imply it.
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Less set recipes on the market was a dev intention for sure.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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I'm adding I've stopped doing TF's since pointless for 25 merits of nothingness etc. I've canceled my family's 3 accounts too
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Can I have your stuff. I am being sincere, not a joke.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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First off, thank you for taking the time to answer some of our concerns about this. One of your answers was actually linked to a question I asked in the original thread, although the reply was to a different post:[ QUOTE ]
Poster: EvilGeko
Q: Will you state right here, right now, that you will not further nerf rewards on content that the playerbase learns to do quicker?
A: We cant do that. However, we can state right here and now that we wont take such decisions lightly. Were going to only decrease rewards on a task if we dont have the option of immediately making adjustments to a Task Force and we find that the majority of players are running the Task Force at a significantly reduced average time than before.
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My concern is how you determine the majority of players are running at a significantly reduced time, as opposed to the same group of players running the TF or SF more often at reduced times, which causes the majority of runs to have a significantly reduced time.
Because this seems to be gearing the system towards the speed runners, and leaving the "average" player who doesn't stealth the objectives with reduced rewards. This is already shown in the time estimate from the Virgil Tarikoss SF and Eden Trial - an 8-person team fighting their way through each mission will not take an average of 50 or 10 minutes to complete these, so obviously the rewards are geared towards the multiple runs of a smaller group of people.
I'm also concerned about the cost of several of the rewards and pricing of them. Do you honestly want to say that defeating 20 AVs isn't even worth one single origin enhancement, through two runs at least 24 hours apart of the Katie Hannon TF? Also, a couple of developers that aren't on the rewards team have stated that they had slightly lower estimates for how much effort should go into a random recipe roll, both listing times of around 60-75 minutes. This would put the cost of a random roll at 12-15 merits, which is honestly where I see the average completion time settling into once speed runs are done more frequently on the higher-value TFs.
I'm still wondering how failed attempts are accounted for in the average as well.
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My question is the same as well. Is a failed attempt automatically kicked into a longer completion time tier? I only ask this as well since I find a monthly subbed game to be a little less fruitful when a reward for efficiency is reduced as evidenced with villain SFs. Moreover, I find the merit costs to still be heavily influenced by the actual market prices for given recipes too.
While technically making potentially expensive recipes technically cheaper in terms of inf spent or time spent through merit random rolls, there are no guarantees that a casual player can still afford the time to earn enough merits for a specific recipe at a specific level.
I can really get behind merit cost reduction for level specific recipes on level specific toons, but I can also see farmers parking several toons at specific levels to continue rolling those levels. It will always be easier for upper level toons to achieve merit capacity for any level recipe costs. Maybe someone else can elaborate better on this loose idea.
Other than that, I am actually impressed with the level of response and clarity on some of the questions.
Edit: Also, after playing the game for the better part of five years now, I better be a part of the experienced majority running all content faster, more efficiently and more effectively. I dont see how the game is not being played as intended. People learn by doing and ultimately get better at doing things over and over again unless they are cretins. 
A whole bunch of 50's.
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Poster: TheWeaver
Q: What impact are you expecting the merit system to have on those of us who (for one reason or another) tend not to run TF/SF's?
A: The intention of the system was to also give players who dont tend to run Task Forces and Strike Forces the chance at earning the same high end rewards as players normally running Task Forces, however at a diminished rate. This gives player an opportunity to earn rewards they normally would not have had access to outside of the Black Market/Wentworths.
[/ QUOTE ] (emphasis added)
Unbelievable. This game has now officially become City Of TFs.
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The Pool C and D recipes weren't previously available to players who didn't do TFs and trials, except through consignment houses. Did that mean that the game was City of TFs before? Those recipes are now available to players who don't do TFs and trials.
The diminished rate now is better than the no rate I had previously.
People who didn't do TFs and trials before are probably going to be even less interested in doing them now. I know that's the case for me.