Shields: Let's discuss it

I'm looking at Shields since so many folks seem unhappy with them. Here's what I am seeing:

Endurance cost is on par with Super Reflexes, and is cheaper if you only consider personal defense, rather than group defense.

Using SOs, and taking Phalanx Fighting, average admittance is roughly twice that of Super Reflexes (48% vs 30%) if you have no allies near you. With 1 ally within 8', admittance drops to 42%, and with 2 allies within 8', admittance drops to 36%.

When you then add in the Health (and commensurate Regeneration increase) coupled with the Damage debuff on enemies in the Against All Odds radius, then look at the survival time measurement something odd happens: Despite having worse Admittance values compared to SR, the survival line for Shields is actually higher -- for a 60 second period, it would take 104.99 dps to kill a Shields character with no allies within 8' compared to 93.7dps to kill an SR character.

Additionally, Against All Odds is increasing the Shields characters damage output by scale 1 + scale 0.55 per enemy up to 10 within 8' radius. Grant Cover is granting a Team Defense Buff and the set comes with a built in attack.

I've played the set, in the ITF with a group, I've solo'd, and duo'd, and have not found it to be a bad set.

How do your experiences differ from our play testing, math, and experiences?
What areas should we be looking at in this equation to make the Shields balanced but not over powered?
What would you do to keep Shields balanced and not overly powerful but also reasonable for endurance?

Edit: Clarity

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I liked the numbers you posted. This is a completely different way to look at Shields, and it does make sense, but I have only played it to a relatively low level and a limited amount of time.

What many people might be looking for are comparisons to other sets, because that seems like what the main issue was, that they are sub-par 'comparing to'.

I'll let people with more Shield experience carry on.

Thanks!

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A lot of the comparison I've heard has been from... well, Billz, whose main complaint is that it doesn't solo as well as the other sets and that its team buffs are meaningless for solo performance.

I might be missing some nuance there, but I think that's his stance.

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Admittedly I have not played with shields enough to state how over or under powered it is. But in the short time I have played with it I did notice one thing that makes the set void for me; the animations (or lack of).

What exactly is the point of the shield? When an enemy attacks my hero leans back (or throws up his right arm) just like a SR scrapper avoids attacks. Why is the shield arm not raising the shield to block the attack?

I know this is kind of a minor issue but it is a game breaker for anyone who wants the feel to be right. Which I would bet is a lot of us.

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I should note, the above numbers are for Scrappers. Looking at Tanker values, I see some interesting differences. Perhaps, this is the part that I've overlooked.

Please note which version of shields you are playing when you respond: Brute, Scrapper or Tanker. It appears to make a large difference.

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- on a note - I think the Dev's have a golden opportunity to dish out some more powersets to tanker/scrappers/brutes based on a variety of shield options - Electric Shield powerset? Fire Shield? Ice Shield? A lot of options for additional powersets there for gameplay instead of just aesthetics.

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Personally speaking, I think the endurance cost factor is largely a part of what all else "needs" to get stacked with Shields to have the same feel of survivability.

The damage debuff from AAO is nice for the mobs in range of it, but not every mob is going to be in range. The lower defense numbers (relative to SR) mean you're more likely to get hit by secondary effects, which can often hurt performance more than simple damage that can be easily healed.

In addition, SR is much easier to tweak to the soft-cap on Defense. The set with similar positional numbers (Ninjitsu) has a built-in self heal and an Elude clone for a tier 9 and three AoE aggro-deflection tools in Caltrops, Smoke Flash, and Blinding Powder (which also has -to-hit to stack with the defense).

The rest of my Elec/Shield Brute's woes were most likely directly related to Hasten; on a SO build, even slotting for EndRed, you'll go through endurance quickly. But without Hasten Elec's damage performance against "hard targets" is somewhat meager, and I want LR and SC up as often as possible. But I had to stop to rest for either hit points or endurance multiple times on Villainous missions after the level bump to 50 (running patron arc missions against Longbow), something that my other Brutes haven't had to bother with since hitting level 20.

Just my thoughts on/experience with it.

Edit: since I just saw it requested (but it should be obvious), I was only using the Brute version of Shields in testing.

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[ QUOTE ]
I should note, the above numbers are for Scrappers. Looking at Tanker values, I see some interesting differences. Perhaps, this is the part that I've overlooked.

Please note which version of shields you are playing when you respond: Brute, Scrapper or Tanker. It appears to make a large difference.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've been trying Shields for Brutes, but am not high enough to comment just yet.

I think you've just spotted one of the complaints about shields though; from what I've been hearing from other people the set doesn't seem like it scales up to proper "Tanker" survival levels as well as other sets. I'll have to try rolling one later.

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[ QUOTE ]
I should note, the above numbers are for Scrappers. Looking at Tanker values, I see some interesting differences. Perhaps, this is the part that I've overlooked.

Please note which version of shields you are playing when you respond: Brute, Scrapper or Tanker. It appears to make a large difference.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have to ask what kind of differences? Like is the scrapper version out performing the tanker? I have a shield/DM tank and MA/shield scrapper both <10 and I have not noticed much of a difference in defense so far.

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Comming from a brute stand point, playing him up through the 20s. Shields works fine with other shields and melee toons, but as the soul dmg taker its very mushy.IMO you should look into upping the defense toggles defense debuff resistance a fair bit maybe fuse grant cover and phalanx fighting, and add a quick cool down crowd control kinda power?, but other that that shields does fill it's niche perfectly fine, my brute feels really STRONG and PRETTY and against all odds helps his SMASH, but once again, just mushy when not with other shields/melee toons. It doesn't solo great, on that note.

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Ive personally been paying the Scrapper version of Shields.

I can say, I feel it is ok, not as good as the other sets, but the only thing I think would be a good start for the set is allow the Team Buff to be applied to the Shield caster as well.

Sort of like Mind Link, it effects you and your team. And now that I think of it, are there any AOE team buffs out there that does not effect its caster? I can't think of one.

As for the endurance, I would always feel more comfortable with a bit more, but for the most part I find it ok, I just find myself resting more with this set than any other.

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My testing has been on an MA/Shield Scrapper. Endurance usage was problematic when Conserve Power was down, but that could have been MA's fault I guess. I was not using Hasten, and did have Stamina. All relevant powers slotted with 1 endurance reduction SO.

Maybe it really was MA. My MA/Dark Scrapper is also an endurance pig.

I did my testing solo other than one Ship Raid on test, so Grant Cover did nothing for me for most of my testing. For a solo character, I'd have hard time picking Shields over Regen or Willpower as a secondary. Maybe if the recharge on Shield Charge was lower, it would be a more attractive solo option.

Edit: Thanks for making the thread.

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Firstly, I've found Shields to be fun so far, despite being a relatively low level. I'm working at it, I'm working at it.

I love the idea of a team oriented set over solo, even if Solo is still possible.

I'm really not sure what the problem is with it.

Still. Castle, could you have a look at this thread?:

http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat....=0#Post12500361

Just an idea.

I'll be honest with you Castle... I wouldn't want anything from Shields removed.

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I think the biggest issue is Phalanax fighting 8ft radius is to small. Even on 8 man teams it is rare to have people that close to you. I realize for concept reasons it is suppose to be small, but I think increasing the radius to 10-12ft would make a world of differense.

The other issue is resistance. Not to sound rude, but it's like why bother? The resistance lvls are so low they serve no purpose. This might not be an issue for Tanks, but it is huge on Scrappers and even brutes.

Lastly, and this is just a personal beef, four toggles and no xtra endurance help....yuck. This is why I saty away from super reflexes. That's just me though. Anyways, thought I'd post my ideas for Shields.


MY Shield Set

[b][i][color=gray]
1. True Grit - Passive that provides 10% boost to total HP and 4% resistance to all.

2. Deflection - This is a toggle power that provides 10.5% defense from Melee, Ranged, and AoE.

3. Against All Odds - Toggle power stays the same as it is now. (Buffs damage/Debuffs enemy's damage)

4. Active Defense - Remains a click power. Loses KB protection because you have paasive KB protection in Battle Agilty now.

5. Battle Agility - Passive power that gives 6% resistance to all and 2.5% defense to melee, Ranged, and AoE. Also provides protection from KB.


6. Phalanx Fighting - This passive power would have a larger AoE of 16 ft. It would give you 1.05% defense to melee, ranged, and AoE for upto 5 allies in range. Still a max potential of 5.25% defense.

7. Grant Cover Self/Grant Cover Others - You get to choose one of two powers here. You can either have this power provide 8.44% defense to all allies within a 16ft radius, or you can have this power give yourself an additional 4% defense to Melee, Ranged and AoE. Which ever you choose, they both also provide 16% resist to defense debuffs.

8. Shield Charge - This attack ROCKS! and stays the same as it is now....just more damage Oh, and PLZ make it do KD instead of KB.

9. One with the Shield - This power stays the same.

This adds up to.....

10% resistance to all.
13% defense to Melee, Ranged, and AoE If you choose to buff others (upto 18.25% with max from Phalanx Fighting)
17% defense to Melee, Ranged, and AoE If you choose to buff yourself (upto 22.25% with max from Phalanx Fighting)
10% boost to total HP
KB in your very first power which is a passive.
3 toggles instead of 4


Also, if deflection had a small chance to deflect ranged attacks back at the caster for damage...that would be a pretty neat aspect to add to the set.

EDIT* These would be numbers for Brutes, which I believe are the same as Scrappers....right? Obviously Tanks would have higher numbers.

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I've played this only on a tanker so far, with mace as a secondary. I was recently on a low level sewer party of all shieldies, though, with most being scrappers.

I found myself feeling more squishy with this team than the scrappers seemed to be, although many remarked that they felt more squishy than they did while running WP from the previous beta.

I've run invuln, ice, fire, stone, and wp tanks on live, and at lower levels this feels more fragile that most the others. On the others I'll usually not have the def toggle running at low levels because I need the end - I'll take the passive where possible. With the shield tanker, I was running the def toggle and it seemed more fragile than the others, to me.

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I would do two things:

1) Change the order of powers to move True Grit earlier. Here's my suggested order -

Deflection
Battle Agility
True Grit
Active Defenses
Against all Odds
Phalanx Fighting
Grant Cover
Shield Charge
One with the Shield

Personal defenses will be pretty much done by 20. The health boost will be frontloaded where it can be a major part of the character's defenses while leveling.

2) Remove the SM, LE resists from Deflection, add them to True Grit, up the values [only the Sm, Le] to 1.0 (10% Tankers/7.5% Scrapper/Brute)

This pretty much doubles the resists, but between the health and the resists, it should allow a Shield Tanker to feel more "sturdy" taking alphas, especially with the Tough and Weave that many will wind up taking. And in One with the Shield, the character should feel quite strong.


That seems roughly fair to me, without overpowering the set.

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My own experiences in short:

I played solo on the 3rd setting with SOs, as a Mace/Shield brute. Overall I did well. However I tend to feel a portion of my success can be attributed to the mitigation provided by Mace (which is a lot more than other melee sets than I'm used to).

I did worst against larger groups of foes (two groups or group + ambush) with defense debuffs (longbow). However I did incredibly well in situations where I could cluster the foes tightly (again AoE potential of Mace+ the 7' range).

I faced down 3 elite bosses, Aurora Borealis, Numina, and a Longbow Ballista. I usually died at once in the process of clearing the surrounding low ranks. I could not stand up to the EB solo without purple inspirations, however overall I used less of those than I have in other characters, 2 at a time was enough to keep me from getting hit often.

I feel like I did alright, however I think about how I'd perform on a team against team sized spawns, and I just don't know how well it would translate upwards. I think about Vanguard or Cimerorans and I'm afraid. I think about IOs and I realize there's a lot of help I could get there, but I'm not sure that's how I should judge the set.

Thoughts-
I duoed in low levels with my girlfriend and we both had phalanx fighting. General impression is while the self buff is nice, the range is shorter than I'm used to being even when it comes to other melee teammates. If I duoed with one of her squishies, she'd never be that close, AoEs are just too dangerous.

Solution extend the range, or possible add a further buff to AoE def.

Mitigation- I got mitigation in my primary, and did ok, but there didn't seem to be enough in the set itself. Shield charge was ok but not consistently usefule based on locations.


As for real solutions I'm just not sure. I'm not enough of a numbers guy to say. I'm posting from my gut and saying I like the set but I'm not seeing it as a set I'd feel comfortable running on the highest difficulties solo or teamed.

I know the game isn't balanced around that, I'm just saying that the community tends to judge a set based on how well it handles Invincible and that may be where a lot of the dissatisfaction is coming from.

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Honestly though, why do we have to have a set power in each tier? Why can't we have a choice of powers in the same tier?

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I am currently testing a Shield, Energy Melee Tanker. These are my observations up to level 16. At the low levels, before level 8, a tanker with a shield has a huge endurance use problem. I was running only one toggle, and basic cycling of attacks. This caused me to have to rest almost after every other fight. What is worse is the effect of how shield works.

Being a defensive power based on defense rather than resistance it just isn't effective enough to stop even white minions from hitting you regularly. You combine that with gauntlet's area taunt and you are making every minion around you want to hit you. Which they do consistently. That combined with little to no resistance to the damage caused me to face plant. A lot....

Thing changed for the better after level 8. At level 8 I took Against All Odds and that helped to mitigate the damage immeasurably. I found that while I suffered even more in the endurance use department, for running 2 toggles now, I could at least not get my shield rammed down my own throat regularly.

As I progressed through levels things got better, upon reaching level 12 I started to slot dual origin enhancements, with the main focus on Endurance Reductions. This allowed me to start functioning as a more realistic tank. I still couldn't reliably tank as well as a Willpower or Invulnerability tanker, in the area of survivability, but it was getting better. Once I hit level 16 I was finally able to get the AOE attack for Energy Melee. This power finally allowed me to be a real tank, albeit not a great one, but I could finally gather good sized mobs.

In summary I believe that once Single Origin enhancements and Invention Origins become available, along with health and stamina that AT will cover most of its problems. The real question is, is the AT good enough where you really HAVE to take another power pool to make it work?

What I suggest is raise the base defense bonus from the toggles or passives. They just simply are not good enough for a Tank to TANK. The Endurance usage I can live with, its a lot, but not to much so. I also think the power set needs some sort of a better taunt. Either increase the taunt in Against All Odds, or possibly change one of the other powers to also taunt.

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For shield tankers, i noticed that the damage resistance part of the set was a bit disapointing.

Sorry this isnt much of anything to go on concerning preformance numbers, i learned to draw in math class. regardless, it seemed that once i started taking damage, there was no recovering. Both in pvp and pve.

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