Attention comic artists to be.... *DELETED*

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Actually I did find paying per page a lot easier than panel... My mind tends to wander and I get easily distracted. I used to pay 50 to 70 bucks per page before hand and if the artist did an exceptionally good job, Id pay an extra 20 bucks. But the last 2 artists.. eh I rather be honest and not lie to other writers if I'm asked about the work.

But it is what it is. Too many bad apples from both sides ruin it for the rest of those trying to claw out a living.

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ok yeah i hear ya, but just remember we can't talk digits on the forums.

But i get it. Did you get to review what the artists were doing? and approve the pencils? Or did you just go into this all blindly? Damn i need to get on with that guide lol

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I did review the art and I was suitably impressed. But then the work began to slack and then the delays... Eh. But enough my misery!

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Believe it or not most of us here are trying to help you.

And believe it or not a lot of us can sympathize with your position.

Its pretty obvious you have a very powerful ambition, high standard and a vision.
I can relate..and I mean really relate.

There was a time in my youth when I basically had the mentality of expected people to either recognize my vision and help me or get out of my way.

I didnt think I was being unreasonable or asking too much - but I was.
To put it in simple terms my own ambition and passion had poisoned my thinking.
You either were with me or against me, it was never my thinking and never my behaviour.
I eventually used up or pushed out just about everyone, whom I just chalked up to being "unreliable" or "too arrogant" to work with.

I wish I could say that it was sooner rather than later that I finally comprehended that I was the common denominator for all my problems and frustrations and with that realization the universe suddenly seemed to not be conspiring against me anymore.

If you dont mind me saying so I think I sense this in you.

At the risk of sounding presumptious and pompous; I think ive been around long enough and dealt with it within myself long enough to recognize it when passion and ambition begin to burn someone alive and obscure thier vision.

Take it from someone who has to practice daily at making sure that thier own ambition and drive doesnt corrupt thier thinking.

Learn the business.
Focus.
Learn to sacrifice.
Learn patience.
Learn to live with less.

/end sermon.

Believe me, we understand where your coming from - this is a great, great forum and I can say with confidence that while it may seem like everyone is ganging up on you they are in reality trying to help you.

Sayterra, have you looked into independent groups like TAT? It's not huge but it's good support for getting a foot into the industry.

I'm working on my own comic right now. I'm writing it. I'm drawing it. And I'm coloring it.

I'm on page 2.

Each page, from concept to finish, takes me about 8 hours.

I plan to have between 20-25 pages.

That's about 200 hours.

200 hours for MY dream, MY vision... I hope I can do it.




200 hours for someone else's dream... for no pay... I find that insulting actually.

Imagine walking up to someone on the street and asking them to work for you for 200 HOURS for no pay.

How many times would you be a) ignored, b) laighed off, or c) told to frack off?

200 hours at my 'normal rate' (my day job) would net me about $10,000. Would you ask a plumber to come to your house and work 200 hours for free? Would you ask a lawyer to take your case and work 200 hours for free? Why would you ask an artist to do the same? Do you value their skills less?

Most here on the forums know I am both an artist AND a collector. I love art... but I respect the people who make it too much for me to insult them like this.

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Sayterra, have you looked into independent groups like TAT? It's not huge but it's good support for getting a foot into the industry.

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I have not, thanks for the link I'm pretty busy full time doing film work, but I always try to keep my plate a lil open for comic jobs.

Lots of good responses. I've always sorta wondered about the draw for me for free type requests. If someone is offering that's one thing but I dunno, I just find it strange that people seem to think it's ok to ask an artist to work for free and then on top of that expect to be able to critique quality, demand timeliness and such. One of the reasons I got out web development many years ago. Build my website for free. I'll let you put your name on it for credit. That's what I see here. A selfish effort disguised as a business proposition.

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LOL, oh man. This is a train wreck.

You get what you pay for, m'kay?

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I paid them on time all the time. "M'kay?"

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I'm working on my own comic right now. I'm writing it. I'm drawing it. And I'm coloring it.

I'm on page 2.

Each page, from concept to finish, takes me about 8 hours.

I plan to have between 20-25 pages.

That's about 200 hours.

200 hours for MY dream, MY vision... I hope I can do it.




200 hours for someone else's dream... for no pay... I find that insulting actually.

Imagine walking up to someone on the street and asking them to work for you for 200 HOURS for no pay.

How many times would you be a) ignored, b) laighed off, or c) told to frack off?

200 hours at my 'normal rate' (my day job) would net me about $10,000. Would you ask a plumber to come to your house and work 200 hours for free? Would you ask a lawyer to take your case and work 200 hours for free? Why would you ask an artist to do the same? Do you value their skills less?

Most here on the forums know I am both an artist AND a collector. I love art... but I respect the people who make it too much for me to insult them like this.

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Then you havent been to comicspace or comicjobz when it was common place requesting unpaid writing or drawing help for web comics that are presented online. believe it or not, some people have actually wrote and draw stuff for free. I have written stuff for free for many artists before because I loved their work and the ideas they had.

as for comparing something like web comic help to a lawyer's job or a plumber is a very glib comparison.

If its commonplace to trade services for free at those other sites, why not ask over there? While there are a lot of artists around here, this forum is for sharing more than anything. There are a lot of commissions and all, but not large contract jobs.

I'd understand if this was something you're kind of doing on the side and were maybe looking for people looking for some skill-work for a page or two. But as was pointed out, you seem to need a serious commitment. Might as well ask in a forum where that sort of stuff is common.

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I'm working on my own comic right now. I'm writing it. I'm drawing it. And I'm coloring it.

I'm on page 2.

Each page, from concept to finish, takes me about 8 hours.

I plan to have between 20-25 pages.

That's about 200 hours.

200 hours for MY dream, MY vision... I hope I can do it.




200 hours for someone else's dream... for no pay... I find that insulting actually.

Imagine walking up to someone on the street and asking them to work for you for 200 HOURS for no pay.

How many times would you be a) ignored, b) laighed off, or c) told to frack off?

200 hours at my 'normal rate' (my day job) would net me about $10,000. Would you ask a plumber to come to your house and work 200 hours for free? Would you ask a lawyer to take your case and work 200 hours for free? Why would you ask an artist to do the same? Do you value their skills less?

Most here on the forums know I am both an artist AND a collector. I love art... but I respect the people who make it too much for me to insult them like this.

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Then you havent been to comicspace or comicjobz when it was common place requesting unpaid writing or drawing help for web comics that are presented online. believe it or not, some people have actually wrote and draw stuff for free. I have written stuff for free for many artists before because I loved their work and the ideas they had.

as for comparing something like web comic help to a lawyer's job or a plumber is a very glib comparison.

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uh oh. Not... really... winning... points... here.

Juggies kinda popular here in these forums.

Regardless if it's done on sites that I don't think I would visit for fear of spybots latching onto my computer, it is kinda sleazy to ask for free art for publication when it's been pointed out that some people (maybe not you) have taken advantage of artists in this fashion.

and you do get what you pay for. It's good advice and not really meant to shot you down even if it unintentionally does.

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If its commonplace to trade services for free at those other sites, why not ask over there?

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I already did ask before . But ComicJobz was pulled last year (due to some supposed scandal. something about the owner being involved in some shady business.)and I am still going through submissions from ComicSpace. Dont assume I didnt!

someone delete this thread. too many people are misunderstanding my post. I wish i didnt delete the follow ups which explained why i was requesting for help on a comic (which are generally done free on the web) and how the schedule was very relaxed. I sent the whole script and only asked for one page a month. not a week like other tyrannical writers.

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I'm working on my own comic right now. I'm writing it. I'm drawing it. And I'm coloring it.

I'm on page 2.

Each page, from concept to finish, takes me about 8 hours.

I plan to have between 20-25 pages.

That's about 200 hours.

200 hours for MY dream, MY vision... I hope I can do it.




200 hours for someone else's dream... for no pay... I find that insulting actually.

Imagine walking up to someone on the street and asking them to work for you for 200 HOURS for no pay.

How many times would you be a) ignored, b) laighed off, or c) told to frack off?

200 hours at my 'normal rate' (my day job) would net me about $10,000. Would you ask a plumber to come to your house and work 200 hours for free? Would you ask a lawyer to take your case and work 200 hours for free? Why would you ask an artist to do the same? Do you value their skills less?

Most here on the forums know I am both an artist AND a collector. I love art... but I respect the people who make it too much for me to insult them like this.

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Then you havent been to comicspace or comicjobz when it was common place requesting unpaid writing or drawing help for web comics that are presented online. believe it or not, some people have actually wrote and draw stuff for free. I have written stuff for free for many artists before because I loved their work and the ideas they had.

as for comparing something like web comic help to a lawyer's job or a plumber is a very glib comparison.

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Wow, you actually want to get into this??

Ok, I'm game.

Any skill/profession takes a certain amount of talent and training to develop. To be a doctor, takes a unique skill set that includes 8+years of university. To be a landscaper often takes years of experience and apprenticeship. To be an artist, you usually need talent, training, and experience.

All of the above are paying jobs.

Sure, some people volunteer their time. Doctors without Borders and Habitat for Humaity both come to mind - both being worthy causes.

But rarely do those professionals volunteer their time for someone they don't know (and to put it bluntly, does not have a hardship story).

You talk about Comicspace of Comicjobz being a place for work... notice how you said "was"? Nowadays, gutterzombie is more popular. Take a look at their jobs section... notice how most of the jobs are paying? There's a reason for that.

Tell you what, if you think my skills and services are so unworthy of pay... that's how I'm going to think of you.

I'd like you to spend the next few months, working for 200 hours ona novel for me.

I don't plan to pay you.. but it's my dream ... so get ta work!

well thats the thing. i did pay for the web comic pages even though most other writers/artist do not pay for them. generally speaking, web comics arent paid for. only the printed stuff.

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I'm working on my own comic right now. I'm writing it. I'm drawing it. And I'm coloring it.

I'm on page 2.



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I wana sees your comic Its not on DA!

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someone delete this thread. too many people are misunderstanding my post.

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Simply drop a note to niv or Koj asking for the thread to be deleted or locked as your the OP , and as much as you want to reply to various comments Id strongly advise against it and just let this all pass over .

theres no way this thread will end well

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well thats the thing. i did pay for the web comic pages even though most other writers/artist do not pay for them. generally speaking, web comics arent paid for. only the printed stuff.

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So you did pay, but now you feel it's not worth paying? Are you just mad about some deals gone bad (possibly), or do you feel that the artists on this forum don't deserve to be paid (possibly)?

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I'm working on my own comic right now. I'm writing it. I'm drawing it. And I'm coloring it.

I'm on page 2.



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I wana sees your comic Its not on DA!

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hehehe.. i'm debating putting it up page by page, or waiting until it's all done.

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If its commonplace to trade services for free at those other sites, why not ask over there?

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I already did ask before . But ComicJobz was pulled last year (due to some supposed scandal. something about the owner being involved in some shady business.)and I am still going through submissions from ComicSpace. Dont assume I didnt!

someone delete this thread. too many people are misunderstanding my post. I wish i didnt delete the follow ups which explained why i was requesting for help on a comic (which are generally done free on the web) and how the schedule was very relaxed. I sent the whole script and only asked for one page a month. not a week like other tyrannical writers.

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Let me just add a little something here -- it's not just what you said, it's how you said it. Bottom line, professionals don't act like that. That's why people reacted negatively. Getting defensive didn't help.

Just chalk this one up in "I learned something" column, apologize, and move on.

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I'm working on my own comic right now. I'm writing it. I'm drawing it. And I'm coloring it.

I'm on page 2.



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I wana sees your comic Its not on DA!

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hehehe.. i'm debating putting it up page by page, or waiting until it's all done.

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Instant gratification vs delayed gratification...

hmmmm....

gimmi now.

I'm also working on a graphic but with learning curve and lack of experience are putting me at like... 8 hours a page for rough pencils. *cries in sink*

Juggs, maybe if you have time you can tell me what you think? It's no where near your caliber but I value your input.

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hehehe.. i'm debating putting it up page by page, or waiting until it's all done.

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Wait until it's done.

I vote page by page too!

wait until its done , if he shows it page by page he is locked in :P he may after completeing it decide to go back and tweak things :P

page by page for my sake.

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Juggs, maybe if you have time you can tell me what you think? It's no where near your caliber but I value your input.

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for shizzle.



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What I find interesting about this whole thread/issue is...

this guy is a writer!

We're the ones misunderstanding him... we're the ones not getting it. yet the Op proports himself to be a writer. a writer so good that you'd want to work for him for free.

This writer wrote me a rather long and fairly well worded Pm telling me about his 'situation' (basically an extended version of what was in the OP).. and after all of that, instead of saying something like he hopes we can communicate better... he tells me NOt to reply.

He writes to get something off of his chest... that's HE'S right.. yet I should not reply.

That's kind of how I feel abou this thread.

The Op came here thinking he was right, and when the tide started to turn, he deleted his posts and requested it to be closed.

I guess the Op doesn't like to face a dissenting view.

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wait until its done , if he shows it page by page he is locked in :P he may after completeing it decide to go back and tweak things :P

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Yup, I've already thought about re-wording a nuber of parts. The panels would stay the same, but I'm considering changing my 'voice' into something more narative.

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Juggs, maybe if you have time you can tell me what you think? It's no where near your caliber but I value your input.

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for shizzle.



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What I find interesting about this whole thread/issue is...

this guy is a writer!

We're the ones misunderstanding him... we're the ones not getting it. yet the Op proports himself to be a writer. a writer so good that you'd want to work for him for free.

This writer wrote me a rather long and fairly well worded Pm telling me about his 'situation' (basically an extended version of what was in the OP).. and after all of that, instead of saying something like he hopes we can communicate better... he tells me NOt to reply.

He writes to get something off of his chest... that's HE'S right.. yet I should not reply.

That's kind of how I feel abou this thread.

The Op came here thinking he was right, and when the tide started to turn, he deleted his posts and requested it to be closed.

I guess the Op doesn't like to face a dissenting view.

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Which is totally different from his other threads. Almost like two different people. Even the spelling and grammatical mistakes are different. So either his bratty little brother got into his account or he needs to check whether he took his meds today.

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well thats the thing. i did pay for the web comic pages even though most other writers/artist do not pay for them. generally speaking, web comics arent paid for. only the printed stuff.

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So you did pay, but now you feel it's not worth paying? Are you just mad about some deals gone bad (possibly), or do you feel that the artists on this forum don't deserve to be paid (possibly)?


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For some reason my response didnt post.

okay, here it is again.

Yes, I would work on something for free. I've done so before and will continue to do so. If the artist is really passionate about his idea, and is willing to answer questions I have about his project and etc, I am more than willing to do it for free.

You got something? Send it to me and I'll come up with a 2 page idea for you. You like some parts and want it expanded? I'll do it. ALL for free. You don't like how a character came off and want it revised, I'll do it for free.

I never SAID the artists dont deserve to be paid. I have very low funds currently. So a printed comic is out of the question for the moment. The pages would've been put online as most starting comics are done.

When the story is finished, by that time I would have the money to pay the artist even though web comics arent generally paid for. Before then I would've faxed over a legal contract which guarantees the artist would be paid.

Then when any sales are made from the printed book, the artist would be paid.

Someone asked me if the art of the first artist was bad, why did I keep paying him? I kept paying him because I was told that the next page would be better. Maybe I should've quit while I was ahead when I was being inundated with excuses but hey, I was optimistic.

And that's that. I'm done talking about this. I admit I came off as vague and slightly embittered in my post but also certain responses and emailed flames were immature.

The next person to send me a flame via my private email will be reported for harassment to the proper authorities.