Attention comic artists to be.... *DELETED*
By
Absinth_Incubus,
Posted on: 2008-08-10 24:43 in Multi-Media Fan Creations
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Show of hands: who thinks Jugg and NYC Pulp should make angry manlove right now?
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thats totally my next gift art project except replace Juggs with Foo and NYC Pulp with Backdoor Baller ((Backalley brawlers praetorian from alternate universe 6669 where the world is the same except the goverment is run by the adult film industry ))
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Show of hands: who thinks Jugg and NYC Pulp should make angry manlove right now?
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thats totally my next gift art project except replace Juggs with Foo and NYC Pulp with Backdoor Baller ((Backalley brawlers praetorian from alternate universe 6669 where the world is the same except the goverment is run by the adult film industry ))
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I'm Gay....... me. 
<qr>
This thread interruption is brought to you by The Dark Arts and the number 8.
My Deviant Art page link-link
CoH/V Fan Videos
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Show of hands: who thinks Jugg and NYC Pulp should make angry manlove right now?
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thats totally my next gift art project except replace Juggs with Foo and NYC Pulp with Backdoor Baller ((Backalley brawlers praetorian from alternate universe 6669 where the world is the same except the goverment is run by the adult film industry ))
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I'm Gay....... me.
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lol
I'd chip in for that if i could! 
My Deviant Art page link-link
CoH/V Fan Videos
I think any art in that direction would get me a cease and desist from niv and koj :P
anyhoo its almost 12:30 here and as much as im enjoying this thread (its nice seeing a fight im not involved in for once :P ) im hitting the hay .
i'll check back in when I get up to see what strange stuff happened in my absence
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I think any art in that direction would get me a cease and desist from niv and koj :P
anyhoo its almost 12:30 here and as much as im enjoying this thread (its nice seeing a fight im not involved in for once :P ) im hitting the hay .
i'll check back in when I get up to see what strange stuff happened in my absence
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See, that's where I've got you guys beat. It's 1:22 pm here and I'm bristling with energy...
speaking of which, I should be putting that into my pages
well (:30 here and i plan on being up for quite sometime!
When ya get a break Juggy, hit me up ingame and lets run a mission or 2 
Oh...
Back to the thread....
Ok nm this thread is done, stick a fork in it!
As Willy Wonka (Wilder version) said, "The suspense is terrible, I hope it lasts."
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As Willy Wonka (Wilder version) said, "The suspense is terrible, I hope it lasts."
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lol nice quote!
I doubt it will though
Juggy has the right idea... I'm goin back to work on my freelance for Marvel, speaking of which, since the forum helped out last time like you wouldn't believe, I'll revive the Marvel Masterpieces thread.
Oooh ooh, I want to be part of the mess too!
OP is a big stupid dumbhead with purple toes and a 5 way slackpie that he feeds to his lulzhounds. He should zip up his stromberries and flap on back to grumpyvale.
Regardless of whether the OP thinks he's right or not, the fact of the matter is that he's completely ruined any hope he ever had for finding a new artist to use here. It's pointless to continue the fight, unless he *really* likes the taste of his foot. Get up, move on and try elsewhere.
I like the *elsewhere* part the best.
http://www.virtueverse.net/wiki/Massacre_Melanie -the original Fire/Dark Corruptor -
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=115217
The Guide to BURN
The thread was dead and I was going to bed then someone started yelling. 
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Oooh ooh, I want to be part of the mess too!
OP is a big stupid dumbhead with purple toes and a 5 way slackpie that he feeds to his lulzhounds. He should zip up his stromberries and flap on back to grumpyvale.
Regardless of whether the OP thinks he's right or not, the fact of the matter is that he's completely ruined any hope he ever had for finding a new artist to use here. It's pointless to continue the fight, unless he *really* likes the taste of his foot. Get up, move on and try elsewhere.
I like the *elsewhere* part the best.
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Ahh..? Okay. Purple toes! I better see a podiatrist then!
As for angry manlove, sorry ladies. A man's bait & tackle holds no interest for me!
Okay, a couple of things because I identify here from a few points of view. Please fully read my post because I am also asking for advice and whatnot.
This thread has gone so many directions, I am glad I could reply here before it gets deleted or locked as while there is alot of chaos around, there is ALOT of great advice here.
first off:
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Show of hands: who thinks Jugg and NYC Pulp should make angry manlove right now?
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This made me laugh out loud. So glad I wasnt drinking anything or my keyboard and monitor would be gone now lol.
Secondly It was mentioned here about writers vs artists and I wanted to add what I have seen here (from a writers perspective since most of the replies are artists and writers/artists).
Writers are crap. Sorry its true to a point. In comic books the artists do alot. They rework stuff and move stuff around.
If it wasnt for artists, comics wouldnt be here and I am not just talking about the art. The artists in comics go so far beyond just the art but the flow and the mood. Ultimatly they decide.
As for writers well... NY, just look around the forums and how many people are on any of those other sites that were listed. Everyone and anyone can write. Well... maybe not as good as the next but ultimatly writers are a secondary thing here in comics.
Writers might get ALOT of the fame but really its the artists who are kings.
Anyone of those artists that works for you for free could easily write something themsevles. Might not be better but its somthing and its fully there own.
As for a writer offering there services, dime a dozen. Its not needed, especially in this day and age. At least when it comes to writers in comic books.
Speaking of which, just in case there are actually some artists here who want to try out someon eles stuff or have something of there own, I am around and will 24 hours + straight to get you whatever type of story with whatever type of characters you want. I think I am pretty good even though I dont have much under my belt. I at least have the 2 issues of my Justice-Knights comic you could look at.
So if anyone wants at least me to read there stuff and throw ideas at them, I am happy to do that too. I can come up with the most detailed plots and twists and stuff in a matter of seconds. Take em or leave them but I am here for anyone I love and need the practice.
Okay so back on track, the main reason I wanted to say something is this...
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Because your going about it all wrong is why.
Trust me, i've had an idea for a TA comic for years now but i wouldn't dream of coming on the boards and asking someone to work for probably a year and then some to get paid.
You just can't say i'll give you a percentage of the profits if and when it gets off the ground. Thats bad business all the way around.
You got screwed before because you didn't have a contract. Plain and simple. If i were an artist or writer i'd either get a contract or sell it per panel. That would be my suggestion to you. Find an artist you wanna work with and order panels. Pay per page and offer them a percentage of the end sales IF it ever gets any profit.
Coming on the boards and demanding art for free with years before they may see anything from it is ludicris. Come on now.
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Relax. It isn't ludicrous, alright?. I've seen other writers and artists request help before on other forums some paying, some for free. Especially on ComicJobz.com before it was shut down and on ComicSpace.
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Actually, your proposition is fairly ludicrous. not insanely, but it's your average run of the mill type ludicrous. And before you get defensive, I'll explain why. First, your proposition is incredibly common. That's why you'd see so many postings about new projects for some pay or little pay. A lot of these people think... they KNOW they have the next big thing (I'm not lumping you in that group, but the sheer amount of times I've had people approach art forums with "THIS WILL MAKE YOU FAMOUS" scenarios is pretty insane). Before you sign up an artist to your project, you need to know if your project is at all viable. Go to conventions and talk to the writers. Pitch them the idea. Sell the idea in one sentence.
Example: Small girl raises monster to be her friend and adventures ensue.
You don't need to give how many pages. You don't have to give synopsis of the characters. If someone perks up at the idea and wants to hear more, THEN you give them more. Have someone, other than a friend, read your summaries, your character descriptions. Why not friends or family? They're going to tell you they like it because they're emotionally involved. Going to conventions with people you've never met before is a great way to figure out what needs changing.
Yes, you've seen people say they'll work for free. That's wrong. And here's why: The discussion of free work or compensation later was brought up amongst graphic designers, illustrators, animators, and comic artists on a large community forum online a few years back. The comics industry needs a re-haul. There are too many people that are doing free work with the promise of sales later, doing spec work and work for hire that lose all their rights as artists. I would advise you to look up the recent folding of Tokyopop and their contracts for artists/writers/creative teams. It's pretty horrific. Aside from that, many, MANY fresh artists out there hear those words, "Compensation later", and they want to get into the industry so badly, they go ahead and sign up for these projects. They're promised their big break, they're told that once it takes off at conventions, they'll rake in the money. This never happens. Never.
One of my first professional gigs was a very low-pay book with the promise of a percentage of any/all sales. It was one of the chief reasons I signed on. Low pay, but the promise of extra checks in the mail was really enticing. Guess how many checks I got for the sales of the books and merchandise over the last six years? Nadda. Even though I HAD a contract. I went after the company, to no avail.
As to my friends doing comics solely to make a living? Out of all my friends, I think it took one of them selling at Comic Con for three years to start making a profit on her comic.
So let's say you make this book. Between the cost of printing your comic and local shop sales, you will net a negative profit, if you go all out and take it to a self-publishing place, you'll probably be negative a few thousand dollars. This is the reality of comics. The exposure doesn't mean you'll get feedback or a break with a company, it doesn't even ensure you make money. It just doesn't work that way. Even if you did attend conventions for several years, your chances of making a profit off your book are minimal at best. My other friend, a well known web-comic artist, only now, after four or five years of working his patoot off every day drawing, is starting to see a profit on his work. He's the sole creator (artist and writer).
Your best bet? Draw up that contract that we all have talked about. Pay a PER PAGE rate, not per panel, which whould include whether or not this artist is doing it all (pencils, inks, color) or just part of it. Set your comic up on the web, and do a short five-seven page story that you can copy at Kinko's and take it to conventions. Hand it out for free, bring the artist with you if you can. With some luck, for every hundred copies you hand out, you'll get one or two emails in response to it. Lather, rinse, repeat for a few years.
Breaking into comics... I've been doing comics professionally off and on since 2001. I've yet to earn a living wage off of it, because comics don't pay a living wage. So why do I do it? Because I love stories. I love telling stories, and I love working with people.
So my two cents, again.
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This was awesome. I just have to say. Great advice. I, in fear of this thread being deleted, copy and pasted this. I am forever in debt.
I also wanted to ask for any more advice I could get from you or anyone else. I'll explain my situation but first explain this to avoid any flaming or misunderstandings (as i am misunderstood alot 
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I could die tomarrow and the world will keep going. I am a nobody and a nothing. I am very proud of what little I have done so far and try my damnest to do more. In other words I am humbling myself infront of all of you.
I do however think I have something, like many of you do. A spark of creativity, of talent. I believe and hope I could one day create something great. I believe in myself that I may oneday do so. But if I do or dont, this world keeps going and I am dust in the wind.
I know I have a gift even though many think they do and alot of the time probably dont. Making completely original ideas and stories that are completely detailed with twists and full characters developed in a matter of minutes in my head is pretty cool but then again, there are probably many who can do the same...
Now that I have that out of the way my situation is this. I am of course poor. I want to make comics. These dont work well together although are obviously going hand and hand.
I havnt been able to make my own comics because simply, I cant draw. Seriously, I can barely do stick figures. So I never made a comic. After that coh comic contest, when i was introduced to comic creator, I realized here was a way to do this without relaying on someone else .I definatly didnt want to go around asking for free stuff. I have reada alot about artists and writers and whatnot and know that is a no no.
So I have a few things out so far and more on the way. I hope this gives me some cred for if I ever work with someone else, so they can see I am not all talk, I have some completed stuff. I think thats a good first step.
I have often been told and read through this thread that about doing your own art. At the same time how if the story is good the art can be overlooked.
Also finding out that great artists take hours to do just one page makes me realized, woah... maybe i should try again.
I was a really good drawer in grade school but it just took so darn long I figured I sucked and left it alone until I suck nowadays.
I was hoping any of you could PM me with some info on how to start learning how to draw so i could learn. I have looked into this before and could really only find stuff for people already at a small level.
I have no level.
Any place I can check out for truely beginners in art?
Another thing to Sayterra is, any advice on for a humble writers? (hope I am humble)
I really think i could one day become a great writer, I pray.
I can feel it my bones, this is really the only thing I am good for this in this world, the only thing I have an actual talent for and I suck at EVERYTHING else. So I gotta be this.
I just need the resources (artist, whatever else lol). I am of course not asking for any handouts here, simply advice. From your experience and what you have seen, how have the established writers today done it?
No hand outs, just a swift kick in the butt to the correct direction is all I ask. If more is offered one day, then awesome.
That first issue I did took me very quickly to write but took me 2 and a half months of working on average 8 to 16 hours a day making it.
The second issue was the same but only took one month.
I also, if it shows anything (idk), was at comic-con in San diago a few weeks ago. I was invited and spoke on a panel about what makes a superhero and what superheroes are all about, yadda yadda yadda.
So I think I do have stuff in me to be randomly contacted and invited and stuff. At least I hope I do, could have just been dumb luck.
Anyways, so I guess this all falls into the falling.
1. Someone point me to where I can learn how to draw. How to draw from a very basic level. I wish to master and surpass stick figures!
2. Any advice, especially from you Sayterra, about what I honestly need to do or work on to get work. Also any advice or direct you can give on where to go to do what is advice previously.
3. third and finally, and I just have to put this out there. If anyone has anything they want written. A comic script made up after there plot idea or... a story completely made up by me or colaberate on together (yes I am offering my writing skills as I mispell many o' words) please contact me. Heck, give me shot.
Hope I can feedback (in this thread or in PMs) and if this thread gets locked or deleted I will probably repost this in its own thread because its really something Id like as much advice and help on as possible.
-Sin Stalker
Need help making your own CoH comics or read other's comics at cohcomicindex.com
www.jkcomics.com for Justice-Knights comics series and more!
Storylines:
Introductions, Obey,
Hey Sin.
I'm glad I could be of help. I think that I may have some advice for you, though it was gleaned from Neil Gaiman a few years back when hearing him talk about story.
Write. And finish what you write. If you have four short stories you're working on, and let them languish, then what? If you have notebooks of ideas, start writing more on them. I talked about the fact that as an artist, even if you don't finish a sketch, you still learn something. It's still valid to finish the sketch, even if you let it go for a year before coming back to it. But finishing something, it's not only a confidence booster, but it means you have something to show people and get feedback.
Start small. Oddly, it's a lot harder to create a short story than it is to create a novel, in many ways. It's very much akin to the project we were given in storyboarding. You have 100 panels to tell a story. That's TOUGH. It's the same thing in writing. Charge yourself with the idea of creating a complete story/comic script in five pages. In five pages can you tell a concise story, can you create likable characters? Short stories are great because you can pass them off to artists and they'll IMMEDIATELY be able to tell you if it's something they can work with, if they like it, if the settings work.
Comic scripting is a little different than just writing a story. You and the artist work together to become the cameramen of a written/drawn movie really. I've had scripts given to me where they went into detail about the time of day, the weather conditions, what the background scenery should look like... I've worked with scripts where they left it up to me to fill in some of the blanks. Some artists like to know where everything ought to be, but we still like the freedom of being able to interpret some things with the writer. For instance, when I got the thumbnails my writer had done for Clockwork Girl, I felt like some of the angles could have been stronger. As a writer, at least in my book, it's cool to be able to get some visual reference as to how the writer envisions how the story unfolds. Some writers want the artist to come up with it because they're not sure.
What it comes down to? Trust. It's trust between the writer to give a story, characters, dialogue, and backgrounds that the artist can work with.
I'll also leave you with a book recommendation, which I suggest for anyone who wants to get into comics, both writers and artists alike:
Panel Discussions: Design in Sequential Art Storytelling
Writers, Comic Artists, Animators, Filmmakers alike should also have this book at hand:
Story by Robert McKee
I'm not really sure if I should post anything in this thread - as it seems likely to be dangerous waters. I did want to say a couple of things, though:
To NYCPulpWriter: Although I can understand the frustration and "bad taste" left over from bad experiences working with other people - there's an often quoted bit of advice (generally used when applying for a job): No matter how bad an experience you had with a previous employer, no matter how badly they screwed you over - NEVER say anything bad about them to a new, prospective employer. EVER. You be polite and perhaps a little vague. Why? Because the moment you do - this new person that you're hoping will hire you is thinking "Hmmm, so, down the line, what might this fellow say about ME to his next employer?" and that'll just be a strike against you.
This advice works, obviously, on a whole lot more than Job interviews.
It may seem a tad unfair - and in a sense it is - but its just how things are.
Wherever else you go looking for artists to work with for this project, remember that (and the comments of others you've received here) - you will be better served by NOT telling any new prospective artists how awful, unprofessional, lazy, primadonna-ish, or whatever the previous artists you worked with were. Just shrug and say - "it didn't work out, just wasn't quite what I was looking for." Try to bring a positive and optimistic attitude with you when looking for the new artist. You don't wanna come at them with "I sure hope you're not gonna give me as much grief as that last jerk I worked with!" You want give them the respect you wish them to have for you.
To Sin_Stalker: Its kind of ironic that you, a self-proclaimed writer, would say something like "Writers are crap." - but I have to say, its a rather unfair thing to say. In fact, I found it a little insulting.
I know that this is a heavily artist and art-loving board (I myself am a practitioner - who needs to go back and re-tackle a particular nemesis of a drawing) - but there are writers on these boards, too. To say that the writers of comics aren't anywhere near as wonderful as the artists is, well unjust.
Alan Moore and Neil Gaiman come to mind. Without their initial "vision" of those stories and characters and worlds - well, Watchmen, Sandman, and V For Vendetta would have just been spandex superhero stories.
Any writer worth their salt works just as hard at their art, and cares just as much about their craft as any worthwhile artist does.
And if you want to be a professional writer worth your salt - YOU should, too.
Yeah, you are right. If that did offend anyone I really do apologize.
My view on it wasnt we are crap, just looked at anyone getting into the biz, there are LOT of writers. Good writers, people who can think they can write, etc.
Almost everyone I know thinks they can write so I am surrounded by writers and actors and whatnot but I am not around any artists whatsoever. I wish I did have an artist friend so I could get some discounted art to make a comic.
I also know that itll take me a few minutes to a few hours to put together a detailed comic book issue script.
Meanwhile itll take an artists HOURS on end to do even one page.
The main thing I ment is the artists are the real workers in this. Both writesr and artists have creativity and can be amazing but in the end the artist is the one doing the backbreaking work. I have learned to have nothing but respect for artists as I have only in the last year or so begun to realize how much time is put into it compared to the writing aspect.
Thats really what I ment by it and so I apoligze for mispeaking. I didnt mean to demean anyone(including myself as I am a writer too) so if i did and this apology doesnt work, please pm me and I wil give you a personal one.
Thank you.
Need help making your own CoH comics or read other's comics at cohcomicindex.com
www.jkcomics.com for Justice-Knights comics series and more!
Storylines:
Introductions, Obey,
Yeah, Sin, I was going to get all upset and offended, then decided not to. I'm a writer and an artist. I also appreciate other writers and artists (especially when they don't go overboard with the commas and check their grammar).
Yes, I'd love to see the man-love gift art, just not on here, please.
I happily share caramel corn.
And the best advice I can give anyone aspiring to anything is something Churchill said: "Never give in. Never give in. Never, never, never, never--in nothing, great or small, large or petty--never give in, except to convictions of honor and good sense."
"If I fail, they write me off as another statistic. If I succeed, they pay me a million bucks to fly out to Hollywood and fart." --- George A. Romero
"If I had any dignity, that would have been humiliating" --- Adam Savage
Virtue Server: Kheprera, Malefic Elf, Lady Omen, Night Rune, La Muerte Roja, Scarab Lafayette, Serena Ravensong, Kyrse, and Arachnavoodoo among others.
I feel like I need to speak up about the "artists are better than writers because etc. etc....".
Do comics work without artists? Of course not. Do comics work without writers? Of course not. I don't think that making a broad, general statement that artists are superior to writers, in the comics field, is very valid. Most of the great characters in comics were created by writers, not artists. On the flip side, the one time a bunch of "superstar artists" got together and came up with some original content, the result was the Image line. Love or hate the Image line, it's tough to argue that anything the founding members did was anything other than shallow imitations of characters and stories from the companies they left.
umm does anyone wanna...
bah...never mind.
*goes back to writing cheap smut*
@MrsAlphaOne
Member of the [url="http://www.guildportal.com/Guild.aspx?GuildID=171543&TabID=1451954"]RIMC[/url]
[url="http://www.freewebs.com/mrsalphaone"]DA![/url]
[color=red]Official Beer Wench of PWNZ[/color] Arc 452196 When Madness Reigns over Reason. Play it and PM me your constructive criticism on what I can tweak before Oct 20th. <3 U all
hmm ya know...
I've seen a comic with no words but letting the pictures tell the story. But i can't say that i've seen a comic released with no art..
Just saying.
@MrsAlphaOne
Member of the [url="http://www.guildportal.com/Guild.aspx?GuildID=171543&TabID=1451954"]RIMC[/url]
[url="http://www.freewebs.com/mrsalphaone"]DA![/url]
[color=red]Official Beer Wench of PWNZ[/color] Arc 452196 When Madness Reigns over Reason. Play it and PM me your constructive criticism on what I can tweak before Oct 20th. <3 U all
They are called books...
;p jk tho, and for Juggy, oh one page at a time, suspense is the very best part of an unfolding comic subscription. At least for me. Well, ok, the Art is the best part, and then the anticipation of the next installment. *cheers*
I really honestly didnt mean to diss anyone, especially fellow writers.
My point was that writers can write a script in a fraction of what it takes an artists to do the art.
Also writers have alot of other mediums. We could write books or scripts for TV/Movies. Short stories, articles, etc.
I personaly am a visual person. Its why I probably wont ever be a book writer. I am however good with visual story telling, stuff on camera and comics.
So again, I am sorry if I disrespected anyone here or offended anyone. It was a poor choice of words. I apologize. I really want to keep this thread about all the great advice and any further advice so if you do have a problem with what I said, if my apology isnt good enough, please just PM me and I can give you a personal apology and I wont be pulling a delete post or a "dont PM me". I misspoke and dug my own grave, trying to make up for it.
Saytress, thank you for the advice. I am going to look into getting both of those books. Hope too once I have the funds.
Any further advice you have, I would love to know about. If you dont want to post it here then please PM me. Also anyone else with honest advice would be great. This is what I am shooting for in life and I appricate any and all help.
Thank you.
Need help making your own CoH comics or read other's comics at cohcomicindex.com
www.jkcomics.com for Justice-Knights comics series and more!
Storylines:
Introductions, Obey,
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hmm ya know...
I've seen a comic with no words but letting the pictures tell the story. But i can't say that i've seen a comic released with no art..
Just saying.
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Actually... I can argue this.
Marjane Satrapi did a graphic novel that has very, very simple pictures, the kind of pictures your kid sister could draw. Not very impressive by themselves. I personally would not read the book just on the pictures, basically. However, the writing is really interesting and engaging. Turns out it's a really popular book and got turned into an animated movie. Even though the pictures are really something your kid sister could draw.
Then comic writers like Warren Ellis, Garth Ennis, Joss Whedon, and yes, even Alan Moore and Neil Gaiman are incredible comic book writers.
In the first Sandman book, the art was really good but not spectacular. Yet it didn't matter because the writing is what really drove it. Garth Ennis's artist, Steve Dillon is a good artist but not the best out there, yet The Preacher is really popular, mostly because of the writing (sorry Steve, I really do love your art but Garth is THAT good).
And then you have Warren Ellis and Darick Robertson, one the best comic writers and one of the best comic artist out there (IMO) doing Transmetropolitan which just gives me a happy because it's so incredibly good (again IMO).
So, I really do believe that artists and authors need each other and should really respect each other (unless they're one in the same then they can do what ever the heck they want, DAMN YOU MIKE MIGNOLA).
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No, I get that. what I'm saying is that you arrived here with a chip on your shoulder. It was evident in your initial post, and it's been clear in a number that followed.
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I don't know about the chip but he was definitely looking for sympathy for his frustration with artists... which was a bad idea in a nail chewing, starving artist, forum.
"wait, you really hated your previous artists and now you want me to invest time I don't have into free art in order to sympathize for your hatred for your previous artists..."
*VICIOUS CYCLE VICIOUS CYCLE*