Cross-faction teaming: Probation and Duress
By
abnormal_joe,
Posted on: 2008-03-13 14:56 in Suggestions and Ideas
You need to put a warning on this:
"WARNING: TL;DR"
wall of text...hurts eyes...so much +P
Okay, this is a pretty cool idea. It's a pity so few forumites have the inclination to read, gosh, three pages of text, but hey.
Oh, and my parking ticket is expired. Will that be a problem?
Actually that is a goooooood idea. + OVER 9000!!!!
It may be tl;dr, but it's freaking a badass idea.
Not a bad idea, actually. Closest to side switching we ever really should get.
Yeah, tl;dr.
But it's worth to read; and I agree, this is a GREAT way to "do" side switch, even better than Redemption/Fall from Grace.
i skimmed 
but it was worth the skimming.
/signed.
Cool idea. I'd prefer the 'two levels above the probate/under diress person' to be outta there to be honest...my level 50 heroes would travel to the Rogue Isles in a heartbeat to fight some dangerous threat, and lacking a level 52 villain anywhere to 'sponsor' 'em...A sponsor, yeah, somebody's gotta vouch for the character who's over in the other playground, but I'm not sure I see a need for the level-locking though?
What wall of text? I see a very nicely organized collection of coherent sentences and formatted paragraps.
That said, I think this could work. I've never been a fan of true side-switching period, but the co-op stuff had me at hello. This is an awesome, awesome idea. Devs, can we do this? Please? 
"If I had Force powers, vacuum or not my cape/clothes/hair would always be blowing in the Dramatic Wind." - Tenzhi
Characters
I like it. Though one thing I'd suggest is getting rid of the idea that the person under probation/duress has to be two levels lower. That means it wouldn't be usable at all at 49-50th level, which would be a shame. Otherwise, I think it's pretty cool.
The Mastermind Project
Leveling every primary/secondary to 50!
50: Bot/FF, Bot/Dark, Ninja/Trap, Merc/Pain, Necro/Dark, Thug/Dark
Works in Progress: Thug/TA, Merc/Poison, Thug/Pain, Ninja/Pain, Thug/Storm
Ok my view is that tis is not a bad idea but I have a few issues with it.
First the 2 level level restriction makes no sense, I would say just leave it open. If the heroes can convince a more powerful villain or if the villains manage to coerce a more powerful Hero it doesn't break anything. The fantastic 4 may need Dr Doom's help but they don't need him to be 2 levels lower than them. and if the hero is being blackmailed or has a loved one in danger then level doesn't matter either. If you are going to open this up just open it up.
There are a few small issues with this.
How are invites handled? how would looking for Team members work now? Would we end up getting more blind invites or would there be some other way to handle it?
PVP zones could be an issue if kicked members stayed in the PVP zone. but as long as they teleport away I don't see a major issue with that.
Also you didn't mention the exemplar distance restrictions if these are not used there is a potential issue with people with 2 accounts could where they could just give someone access to the other faction and just park the toon that extended the invite.
Villains wouldn't have an issue going to the Paragon but some COH players with weaker machines may have an issue in Rogue Isles.
After ruminating (for some time), I'll concede the two-level thing doesn't need to be in the proposal. The original thought was "who would trust an opposite side person they couldn't outfight," but the genre examples are compelling.
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First the 2 level level restriction makes no sense, I would say just leave it open.
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As I said above, I concur after pondering for a couple months. 
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How are invites handled? how would looking for Team members work now? Would we end up getting more blind invites or would there be some other way to handle it?
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I would suggest both the sponsor and the sponsee would have to go to Wyvern/Hero Corps (depending on which side of the purple divide they're on). If a player just wants to 'volunteer' for Probation/Duress, he can log his request into a terminal not unlike the arena, and if someone is Looking for Team Members on the other side, he can choose from the registered people.
It may well be that most Probation/Duress will come from folks who know each other. I don't see this would be a bad thing.
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PVP zones could be an issue if kicked members stayed in the PVP zone. but as long as they teleport away I don't see a major issue with that.
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Agreed. /kicking should lead to immediate teleport, even when in a PvP or even Co-Op zone.
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Also you didn't mention the exemplar distance restrictions if these are not used there is a potential issue with people with 2 accounts could where they could just give someone access to the other faction and just park the toon that extended the invite.
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That much is true, though I'm not sure how to work the restrictions when a failure involves a teleporting. It's one thing to lose sidekick when you're sitting at the trainer, without instant death following. It would be quite another to be training and then suddenly teleporting back to the Rogue Isles.
Maybe some kind of colored icon along with the power indicators. Green means they've been within the sidekick distance within the last five minutes, yellow means it's been 5-9 minutes since being separated from their Sponsor, putting them on warning, and red means it's been 10 minutes, with a two minute warning to get back within sidekick distance or the autokick/teleport takes place. Possibly with the countdown timer a la an Ouroboros timed taskforce appearing at that point.
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Villains wouldn't have an issue going to the Paragon but some COH players with weaker machines may have an issue in Rogue Isles.
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Very sad, but true. Nothing to be done for this.
Interesting.
Well presented.
Can't see any major insurmountable issues.
Best is not to allow this type of team entry into PvP zones at all.
For the distance problem in same zone--auto-teleport to your sponsor when out side of x feet for y seconds with a count on both toons screens.
would be fun
New Global: @American Decoy
�You are hereby promoted to Tiglath_Pilesest� - Squez
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This is a great idea. It seems to me that, even if the mission content is kept separate, the zones should be more accessible to both sides by various means.
I agree that the two-level difference requirement should be removed to enable level 50s to participate.
Virtue:
Grul Doctor Pinnacle Swarm Caller Pity Fist Smashdozer Dhuuln
Very nice, very good idea! I agree that the LK/SK is not needed, other than that, simply wonderful! Hope we see this by Issue 14! 
Check out the Repeat Offenders network of SGs! You'll be glad you did.
I like this. Very much DO WANT, and doesn't seem broken at all.
If anything, my Corruptor would get a LOT more mileage with this.
@Yoshi Ayarane -
Ayarane Project | Character Listing
Excellent idea. I agree that the two-level restriction seems harsh, considering the number of level 50s who would love to visit the Other Side.
Frankly, I would handle it a bit differently: instead of going automatically into the Sponsor's team, he would go into the Sponsor's supergroup at the lowest level. A Duress or Probation character must not already be in a Supergroup, and cannot be promoted above the lowest rank.
If the player is then kicked from the Supergroup by any ranking member of that SG, they are kicked back to their home world.
This means two things:
a) you can stay on the Other Side almost indefinitely and return by hitting Quit SG, and
b) you have multiple ranking members in the SG watching over your behavior instead of just one team leader.
I would also arrange it without the insta-teleport back to the home side. Once the Sponsor cuts you off, then the next time you load and/or zone and/or hospital, you're back on your side. That way there's no free teleports and no insta-side-switching in PVP.
beautiful.
/signed.
This isn't a farm. This is a fight. You're not going to punch the other guys face until enhancements fall out.
Ain't no women on the web. just guys and police officers. and Chris Hansen.
This system would be an absolutely amazing addition to the game. I really hope this idea has been PMed directly to Positron.
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Frankly, I would handle it a bit differently: instead of going automatically into the Sponsor's team, he would go into the Sponsor's supergroup at the lowest level. A Duress or Probation character must not already be in a Supergroup, and cannot be promoted above the lowest rank.
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So all SG Leaders or other high ranked charcters (e.g. base designers) are banned from these type of missions? What about those who like to keep track of how much Inf they have earned for the SG? Are they forbidden as well?
These are problems that the network of SGs I'm in would encounter almost immediately. With over 30 SGs on 3 servers, and our most active players are typically (but not always) SG Leaders your addition to this suggesion would greatly limit our most active players.
Just for the record, I am GREATLY in favor of the proposed Probation/Duress system. I think this would be a wonderful addition to the game, even if Redemption/Fall from Grace becomes available later. Some may want to switch sides permanently, others only for a mission or an evening.
As for badges, I say let the badges be available to the opposing faction, but they are not granted the accolade even if they get all the associated badges. If a permenant side switch becomes available then I would strip opposite side accolades and immediatly grant the new side's accolades (if the character qualifies).
Check out the Repeat Offenders network of SGs! You'll be glad you did.
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As for badges, I say let the badges be available to the opposing faction, but they are not granted the accolade even if they get all the associated badges. If a permenant side switch becomes available then I would strip opposite side accolades and immediatly grant the new side's accolades (if the character qualifies).
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Going allllll the way back to CoV Beta, there was once a bug that would dump us into Atlas Park instead of Mercy Island, which gave us a chance to run around and do Atlas Park type stuff as villains (all the same stuff conned hostile to us as heroes, with the additions of Police Drones one-shotting you straight into a Mercy Island hospital.)
One thing we discovered was some of the badges (like Patriot) were different for villains instead of heroes. The Devs at the time confirmed that they'd flagged many of the badges differently for heroes and villains, just to simplify their jobs later on down the line if they wanted to, say, give Villains access to the true Kings Row for some reason.
Assuming they continued to do this, they could conceivably change specific names/tags of badges for villains than heroes, blocking access to Heroic Accolades even if the villain met all the requirements. And vice versa, if they went the other way.
I don't think there should be a supergroup sponsorship component -- the sponsor is important, but even as we've agreed the two level difference was a bad idea, I think this puts a restriction that doesn't need to be there. Just make sure there's a specific hero sponsoring a specific villain, with consequences (IE -- instaport out of zone) if the two stay out of range of each other for too long, and give other heroes on the team the chance to sponsor the villain if the first hero quits or is disconnected.
And, naturally, the same for heroes in the Rogue Islands.
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This system would be an absolutely amazing addition to the game. I really hope this idea has been PMed directly to Positron.
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I PM'd him a link to the thread. It would be a bit much to be replicated in a PM, and the comments have improved it along the way.
This is actually one of the best suggestions I've seen to allow for cross factional teaming.... I'm in awe of it's elegance and simplicity.
Thundra stared as Hyperton walked through the door. Behind Hyperton, a man was walking with a slight swagger, a sneer on his face. It was a man the heroine knew well.
"[u]Giganaut[u]," the heroine hissed, blue-white electricity lining her hands. "I've been waiting for a chance--"
"Calm [u]down[u] Thundra," Hyperton shouted, stepping between the two. "I know how you feel, but I'm vouching for him! We need--"
"Vouching for that scum?" Thundra demanded. "Do you have any idea what he's done?"
"Oh, come now, Thundra," Giganaut said, his smile smug. "Just because you weren't able to stop my little raid on Portal Corp doesn't mean we can't be friends, does it?"
"Shut your mouth," Hyperton snapped at the villain. He looked back at Thundra. "I know. I know how you feel. I feel the same way, but right now we need him. If we're going to rescue those researchers from the Circle of Thorns, we need [u]him[u]."
"So that's it? We're just supposed to forgive him and be friends?" Thundra snapped.
"No. He's here on probation, and the second he steps out of line we take him down hard. But until he steps out of line, he's with us. Is that understood?"
Thundra stared. "Fine," she snapped. "For now. Until we rescue those researchers. But the minute this is done--"
"Wouldn't have it any other way, Thunderthighs," Giganaut said with a smile. "Now, what say we discuss this plan. Or do you think the Circle's just gonna wave as we walk in?"
City of Heroes and City of Villains have been moving towards an increasing number of cooperative missions. Holiday missions get assigned in Pocket D, where both heroes and villains must work together to save time and love while they punch out Redcaps. The Rikti War Zone gives heroes and villains a chance to set aside their differences to repel invasion. We have just learned that heroes and villains may be working together under the auspices of the Midnight Club to uncover the very source of power.
This system proposes these alliances-of-convenience be extended. This would allow friends out of the game to play their favorite characters together, even if those characters are of differing factions. A villain who crosses over to work with heroes on a temporary basis would be under Probation. A hero forced by circumstances to help villains does so under Duress.
A Villain under Probation has been recruited for help on a case. In game-terms, the Villain has some expertise, knowledge or connection to the case, which means that as little as the heroes might trust that Villain, he must be included for the greater good. This is an extension of the same conditions that lead to cooperation in the Rikti War Zone.
A Hero under Duress is being forced to help those he might otherwise despise to do their dirty work. Perhaps the villains have blackmail information. Perhaps they've kidnapped a loved one. Perhaps (though it's unlikely) the hero is just afraid he'll be hurt or killed if he doesn't cooperate. Regardless, he's got to help their nefarious work... for now.
Mechanically, both a villain under Probation and a hero under Duress work the same way. They are recruited (more on this below) by the other side, and are transported into the zone when they agree. One team member of the appropriate faction must assume responsibility for the cross-faction member, and that team member must be at least two levels higher than his charge. The act of taking charge acts the same as Sidekicking/Lackeying, and the opposite faction member is immediately considered one combat level below his sponsor.
At this time, the team operates as normal, albeit with a villain (if a hero team) or a hero (if a villain team) along for the ride. As with any Sidekicked/Lackeyed character, the Villain under Probation/Hero under Duress receives experience points, salvage drops, influence/infamy, enhancements and recipes. However, there are differences between a Probationary/Duressed member and a Sidekick.
First off, team members cannot trade with the Probationary/Duressed character, the same as with any other Hero/Villain cross-faction team. Further, Probationary/Duressed members can't use Wentworth's or the Black Market, can't use police band radios or newspapers to get missions, and can't use trainers or contacts for levelling, missions or to buy or sell things. They also do not have access to their Base, even via teleport (though they can pass through their Sponsor's base as needed).
However, they can use new specialized contacts for these purposes -- contacts who have some experience with working on the shady side (for either definition of the term), and who both support these clandestine teamups and give a means by which a hero or villain can travel to the other side of the divide.
In the Rogue Isles, these services are handled by Wyvern. This paramilitary mostly works to fight evil, but their hands are significantly dirtier and their world significantly greyer than Longbow's. In several zones, Wyvern has clandestine drop points set up. Villains looking to team up with heroes can visit these drop points and set up a recruitment in either direction. Heroes trapped in the Rogue Islands under Duress can get supplies from Wyvern agents, and even train to new levels if need be.
In Paragon City, it is well known that Hero Corps has connections that other hero groups can't touch, and they have several offices that can handle somewhat... unorthodox communication. Heroes would use a Hero Corps office to travel to the Rogue Islands if going under Duress, while Villains under Probation in Paragon City would get their gear and even training from these offices.
If a Probationary/Duressed character levels to within two levels of his sponsor, he will lose the sponsorship as detailed below. If the villain or hero gets too powerful to control, after all, something will have to be done about it....
In a practical sense, a player can be contacted by friends and agree to accept Probation/Duress automatically -- this would then mark the nearest Wyvern Drop Point/Hero Corps Office on his map, and give him a door to go through to represent travelling to the faraway land. He would then zone into the Wyvern Drop Point/Hero Corps Office nearest to his Sponsor immediately. Players looking for pickup group opportunities could consult a Wyvern Agent or Hero Corps Operative who would give information on the various opposing faction's members looking for a team or looking for a team member (a second generation version of the current LFT window).
While under Probation or Duress, the character will con in all ways like the faction he's teamed with. A Mastermind under Probation (and all of his henchmen) will Con blue in Paragon City, for example. If the team should enter a PvP zone, he will continue to Con on his team's side.
If a Probationary/Duressed character's Sponsor either unsponsors him or goes offline while the probationary/duressed is in a mission with his team, he will continue to be in the mission and can act normally, though his level will revert to his normal level. Another hero can sponsor him at any time during this mission. If a Probationary/Duressed character loses his sponsor for any reason while the team is not in a mission, a thirty second timer begins to go off on all team members' screens. Someone else on the team will have to sponsor the Probationary/Duressed character during that time, and the character will need to accept, or else the Probationary/Duressed character will be automatically /kicked from the team.
If a Probationary/Duressed member is /Kicked from his team, whether automatically because of the above or by the decision of the Team Leader, he will immediately go into the teleport animation and vanish, rezoning and reappearing in his own land again, in the same Wyvern Drop Point/Hero Corps Office he originally left from. In game terms, the hero under duress has been rescued by long distance teleport, and the villain under probation has had his backup plan -- well paid for -- go into effect when those turncoat heroes have worked against him.
Coding and Art Impact: Moderate. The Wyvern Drop Points/Hero Corps Offices will need to be designed and placed, code for cross-faction teaming, looking for team and inviting across factions will need to be implemented. Systems for changing "alignment" so that villains con as heroes or heroes con as villains would need to be in place. This would not be trivial but it's not likely to be tremendously time consuming either.
Questions That Need Answering: Can a Villain under Probation or a Hero under Duress get Exploration Badges from the other side? What about History Badges?
In conclusion -- this is one of those systems that would help model comic book situations and behavior without greatly unbalancing the game. While I continue to hope for Redemption and Falling, this would be a less code intensive solution which would allow for Masterminds in Kings Row or Scrappers in Port Oakes without disrupting the balance too much. And, it would let me play my villains with my friends, who all love heroes too much, dagnabbit.
Thank you for your consideration. The man at the door will validate your parking.