Discussion: Changes to Task/Strike Force Missions
By
Acid_Reign,
Posted on: 2008-02-14 15:00 in News, Events and Announcement Discussion
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The weak excuse that this change was primarily to prevent RMT'ers, when clearly it BENEFITS them more than prevents them.
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But that's not what LH actually says, is it?
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One of the many aims of this most recent update was to address exploitive behavior that could be used for influence/infamy farming.
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The MANY AIMS of this most recent UPDATE. Not this particular fix, but the WHOLE UPDATE. The patch of which this particular fix was only one element, and which also includes stuff like the Intro to Vanguard fix.
I can't believe the devs did that. What brain cell thought of this idea !!!! 
OK, so.
In order to assess whether this 'fix' does what it's supposed to do well or not, we first have to ascertain just what the hey it was supposed to achieve in the first place.
Now I know plenty of you have your opinions on that. 'It was to stop Cap runs!' I think that's a mistake, and Cap runs were just one aspect of a much larger syndrome in the Devs' eyes, which is People Not Doing the TFs Like The TFs Are Meant To Be Done.
All we have to go on is the quote from LH:
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One of the many aims of this most recent update was to address exploitive behavior that could be used for influence/infamy farming.
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So this change belongs in the context of a whole set of changes intended to 'address exploitive behaviour'.
So does it do that? Hell no. It ENABLES it. As has already been pointed out by more eloquent people than myself, farmers can now be assured of missions packed with mobs.
Now, I'm not about to say I'm in possession of all the facts here. Maybe there's some exploit I'm blissfully unaware of, like the 'brawl the Rikti portal and run away' thing. But it does look like the attempt to deal with one particular sort of 'exploitive behaviour', whatever it may actually have been, just blew the door wide open for another sort.
Until we know exactly what it was supposed to fix, it'll be hard to suggest alternatives.
Your time could probably be spent better than nitpicking semantics for the sake of defending the rednames as opposed to actually considering the change at hand.
That said, to the hundreds of players in this thread who are opposed to this change for a large host of reasons (most of which I'd agree with): debating "possible solutions" virtually guarantees we won't really get anywhere, and the change will remain in effect. The first step should be rolling back this change and then taking a look at things. Though if this is targeted at nerfing Cap SFs or something like that, then do as was done with Katie TFs; consider solutions on a TF by TF basis instead of making sweeping changes to everything.
Of course, IMO, no solution was necessary at all. Players played how they wanted to, small team or big team.
These effects had no real impact on trying to do the Cap au Diable strike force for time. We did a test with 4 people with no softloading. Finished time was 24:52. Made both the 30 minute and no death challenges. Best previous time with softloading 22:30. The difference can be attributed to luck of the draw on map layouts. This was far more fun than having someone solo the whole thing though.
Pics or it didn't happen
In summary Cap au Diable SF 24 Minutes 52 Seconds. I Hope this wasn't what they were trying to fix because a lot of other stuff got caught in the crossfire.
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Your time could probably be spent better than nitpicking semantics for the sake of defending the rednames as opposed to actually considering the change at hand.
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psst. check the post above yours.
I'm neither nitpicking semantics nor defending the rednames.
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One of the many aims of this most recent update was to address exploitive behavior that could be used for influence/infamy farming. This is especially relevant when considering recent problems with unwanted real money trade (RMT) solicitations in game.
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Quote fixed.
Either way....who would you say the biggest farmers in the game are? You? Me? No....that would be RMT'ers. I admit I have a mish I have saved full of CoT that I run through periodically for rare salvage, but I would not consider myself a farmer.
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Such missions have always been intended to be group activities, hence the reason for the minimum group size requirement to start them. We feel that the group size requirements are certainly not onerous and that the need for grouping is a good dynamic in a social environment like City of Heroes.
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This is the other primary reason listed by Lighthouse. This one I agree with, partly. Teaming IS the best aspect of an MMO. HOWEVER, forced teaming, with PENALTIES if you team cannot manage to stay cohesive is not desirable, and actually DISCOURAGES teaming rather than encouraging it.
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This is the other primary reason listed by Lighthouse. This one I agree with, partly. Teaming IS the best aspect of an MMO. HOWEVER, forced teaming, with PENALTIES if you team cannot manage to stay cohesive is not desirable, and actually DISCOURAGES teaming rather than encouraging it.
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Absolutely. The 'click multiple glowies at once' missions should have been ample evidence of that.
I'm starting to think that the Tech bug in the lord recluse Strike Force has fallen victim to "numbers". Specifically, how many people play heroes vs how many play villains. I hope that's not the case, but...
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I don't do TF's very often, but this change means I'll be doing them even less so now. People will just start doing them with close friends and SG mates. PuG TF's were bad enough as it was, now they'll be much worse.
If this was put in to DISCOURAGE farmers, I'd have to say it's had the opposite effect. I don't farm now, but now I'm seriously going to look into what TF's might be good for finding a farmable mission in. I don't really care about arcane salvage drops, but they would be a plus. I just want mass killing, err... arrests in an environment where I'm not bothering other people.
Thanks for the change Devs. 
Losing faith in humanity, one person at a time.
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We know that finding out about this change after the patch is already live is not the ideal way to go about it. It was never our intent to hide or stealth this change out, it was simply lost in the volume of other changes spanning many months.
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Great story tell us another.
Are you gonna bark all day, little doggie, or are you gonna bite?
Mr. Blonde 'Reservoir Dogs'
Glad you like my idea. I think we agree about most things except the unknowable and resumed veractiy (or lack thereof) of the Devs.
That's cool. I'll just sit over here with my half full glass 
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
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This was far more fun than having someone solo the whole thing though.
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Mission Accomplished?
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
Oh dear.
Do we have another undocumented change?
Or is this poster just confused?
Well, ended up quiting the Synapse tf. It just got too labor intensive, instead of fun like I usually have when running both accounts. Guess I will have to figure out something else to make this game fun.
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Wow, so they alter the game to work as they intended, and everyone complains?
People, we're starting to sound like the WoW forums here. :/
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They cant make the game work as intended. Otherwise they would fix gauntlet, cop, toggle bug, the aura bug, placate and the list goes on and on. The game is intended to be fun. Some parts are not. Obviously not working as intended.
Lots of 50's yada yada. still finding fun things to do.
Cthulhu loves you, better start running
I�! I�! Gg�gorsch�a�bha egurtsa�ar�ug d� Dalhor! Cthluhu fthagn! Cthluhu fthagn!
You are in a maze of twisty little passages
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Why did it take them two days to "find" the patch notes or to comment?
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Office chaos. LH clearly wasn't in the loop, as his now-deleted comments about it being a bug reveal.
Now, is anyone actually going to answer my question? If you're going to make conspiracy theories, then the person(s) doing the conspiring have to have something to gain by it.
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They may have, w just dont know it. its eithe conspiracy or incompetance, you decide.
Lots of 50's yada yada. still finding fun things to do.
Cthulhu loves you, better start running
I�! I�! Gg�gorsch�a�bha egurtsa�ar�ug d� Dalhor! Cthluhu fthagn! Cthluhu fthagn!
You are in a maze of twisty little passages
So very very very true....
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They cant make the game work as intended. Otherwise they would fix gauntlet, cop, toggle bug, the aura bug, placate and the list goes on and on. The game is intended to be fun. Some parts are not. Obviously not working as intended.
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Really though out of any changes that should of been done... or could of been done, this has to be the most retarded of them all. Really what was the problem here? Farming? Please.... this is obviously a half [censored] attempted to force players to play the game as they see fit.... there is absolutely no logic in this change.
Hey I have a great idea... remember when it was said by a red name that villains could not respec out of their patrons due to it being a conflict of RP?? Now we can go back in time to run old mission.. btw great way off putting old content in and mask it as some attempt of new content... why can't we respec out of our patrons saying we can "time travel" ... that is freakin logical.. yet here we are.. scratching our heads at why this of all things was even on the "top" of the list of things to do.
Anyways...
my .02
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Our SG is getting ready to do the Quarterfield TF starting in a few days,
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Now I'll feel like I can't drop without seriously hurting the team. I'll probably have to say I can't do the TF.
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So, why not arrange to complete the TF over a few days?
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That ability has existed since the game's release and I have heard of it being taken advantage of among people I am exposed to in game exactly three times in 45 months.
Not practical. Not enough people approach the content with that mindset. The devs need to acknowledge that, not attempt to more rigorously enforce it nearly 4 years later.
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I am skipping a lot of posts but while reading through all of this I HAD to respond to this one.
WOW...just WOW. In 45 months, you have only heard of someone taking advantage of running a TF across multiple days *3* times. What have you been doing? Living under a rock?
Almost EVER TF my SG runs we do over multiple days. There are just not that many times that all of us can get setup for a long run of more than a few hours. We do run them ever so often in a single night but normal across a weekend.
I can understand not running across multiple days with a PUG but from what I see in most SG's I know, it is not a problem to do them over multiple days.
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Glad you like my idea. I think we agree about most things except the unknowable and resumed veractiy (or lack thereof) of the Devs.
That's cool. I'll just sit over here with my half full glass
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And I will sit over here with my half-empty glass marked "Jack." HEHE.
On a little sidenote, I don't know who said it but they made me LOL when I read: "So Jack came back?" I'm too lazy to read this entire thread again but whoever wrote it ty!
Thanks, NC Soft, for closing my favorite game ever without warning and with plenty of life still left in it, and thus relieving me of the burden of EVER wanting to buy, try or even hear about another game from your company. Will my decision make a dent, or persuade them in anyway, shape or form? Nope, obviously not. Don't care. NC Soft is dead to me. ~ PsyFox
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Oh dear.
Do we have another undocumented change?
Or is this poster just confused?
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That's a bug that crops up from time to time with farm missions.
"...freedom isn't a commodity to compromise." -- Captain America, New Avengers #21
Guide to Base Teleporters
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Hey I have a great idea... remember when it was said by a red name that villains could not respec out of their patrons due to it being a conflict of RP?? Now we can go back in time to run old mission... why can't we respec out of our patrons saying we can "time travel" ... that is freakin logical.. yet here we are.. scratching our heads at why this of all things was even on the "top" of the list of things to do.
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This is because the devs hate CoV. This is in keeping with the game balance vision, apparently.
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btw great way off putting old content in and mask it as some attempt of new content...
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Okay, calling bull---- here. People have been asking for (perhaps "demanding" would be more accurate) this feature since beta, and they implemented it very nicely.
Anyway, I'll be happy about this change if it means cheaper salvage, which it might (better farming --> market glut), so... *raspberry*
With all due respect, this is another change that is unnecessary and done without thinking through all the ramifications.
Several of the task forces take ENTIRELY too long to run in one comfortable sitting. Three of four of the Shadow Shard ones in particular are, and Quaterfield is the most borked and ridiculously redundant task force I've ever run. For its level, Positron is right up there. It's so long, it's not even fun as it *is* -- and that's if you run with a minimum team.
The one and only way we *ever* have time to run Quaterfield is to start it on the tail of one weekend, and have each person work on it a piece at a time until we all meet back again the next weekend. Now, that will be impossible. We were already giving up a great deal of XP and prestige just to be able to do this together. Apparently, now we're not supposed to be able to do it unless we have twelve hours to devote to a task force. We're grown, with families and responsibilities; we don't have that kind of time or inclination. That's why we *don't* play the games which require that kind of grind -- and a grind is precisely what it is.
Further, I disagree with the statement that 'the numbers required are not a problem'. They are. Perhaps they are not on high population servers, but if you play a lower population server late at night, it is if you don't have a supergroup. Try getting together even a minimum team for Positron some time at about 3 a.m. on a low population server. Good luck doing it, too.
Finally, one cannot control the fact that people DO drop out in the middle of a task force - particularly if it's a PuG. Is it fair to punish the rest of the team who's been plugging along because other members have had to leave? That's precisely what this measure does.
Positron and Quaterfield, in particular, should be thoroughly revamped in the light of this change. In addition, the Shadow Shard task forces should be reduced from an eight man to a six man team at the very most. Otherwise, this change what SHOULD be a fun event to sheer drudgery -- and trust me, we don't pay for drudgery; we go to work for that.
If abuse is going on, then please, deal with the abusers, but please STOP making changes which unfairly penalize those who *don't* abuse it and who don't have endless hours to play.
~Elizabeth
Leave the saving of the world to the men? I don't think so! -Elastigirl
The SOLUS Foundation - http://www.solusfoundation.com
A Liberty-based bastion, seven years strong.
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High Beam
SOLUTION - Standardize all Task Forces/Strike Forces to have a Minimum Team Size requirement of 5. The LSRF and STF being the exception as they are supposed to be the pinnacle of challenge. This means that those farmers that try to roll in and farm one solo are going to face a super serious challenge. They may be able to handle mob spawn sizes of 4 but 5 I hazard to guess will thin that herd a lot more, making them a negligible minority.
SOLUTION Revamp the older TFs by reducing the number of pointless missions that are nothing more than padding. There is no real necessity to hunt this and hunt that and click this and click that. The Shard TFs are overly crowded with this sort of crap and their presence adds no real value to the TF. The Villain side has that figured out pretty good.
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I like these solutions and agree with the assessment of the strike forces versus task forces. I'd prefer four instead of five -- again, five's easy enough on a high population server like Freedom, but is not on a low population server at off-peak hours -- but otherwise, I can go for this.
I couldn't care less about the drops and I highly doubt many others in our groups do, either. Our groups do task forces because they're a fun and easy to organize group event. Some people like the badges, some few want to get a level a little faster than usual, some will run it just to hang with the rest of the group and enjoy the company.
Above all, it's content we can all do together, no matter what the level, because we don't have to fiddle around with exemplars to do regular content. Our precious game time is spent *playing*, not having to do the song and dance which used to be necessary in the old TF days pre-auto exemplar.
As it stands, I'm not certain if we'll be able to continue task forces as events, and that would be a serious blow for our group, as well as many others, I'm sure.
Again. Please look at your baseline, your casual players, and stop discouraging those who committed no abuses from playing the game.
~Elizabeth
Leave the saving of the world to the men? I don't think so! -Elastigirl
The SOLUS Foundation - http://www.solusfoundation.com
A Liberty-based bastion, seven years strong.
Just reduce the required number of players in all TFs by one, with no TF requiring more than 6 players, and this is actually a decent idea.
But they annoyance factor when people drop or have to quit will be much higher than today.