Discussion: Changes to Task/Strike Force Missions
By
Acid_Reign,
Posted on: 2008-02-14 15:00 in News, Events and Announcement Discussion
They're done with Roger Clemens, Foxy. Maybe your senator has some free time to look into this.
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They're done with Roger Clemens, Foxy. Maybe your senator has some free time to look into this.
[/ QUOTE ]
Naw, now they're on to Belichek.
But some comment would be appreciated. Or at least give Lighthouse accurate information since he seems to be the only one willing to acknowledge that anything changed.
"Mastermind Pets operate...differently, and aren't as easily fixed. Especially the Bruiser. I want to take him out behind the woodshed and pull an "old yeller" on him at times." - Castle
I'm afraid that I'm going to have to agree with everything said here. I love this game and the devs, but... I don't like getting punished for what a minority of the game is doing.
My daughter joined a Synapse TF group when asked, and apparently it was a PuG. They started with five around 4 PM. By 9 PM, they hadn't even gotten halfway. I insisted on my daughter logging off as it was getting too late and she had been attached to the computer for 5 hours give or take without having even gotten her homework started.
The group disbanded with an agreement to meet up at 5 pm the next day to finish.
Sounds good. Except... Only two of the group even showed up. My daughter, and the holder of the TF. So what can they do? They're stuck in the TF and unable to do anything else except street sweeping until the TF is dropped or ends. They went on and slogged through as a duo so all those hours of work the day before wasn't for nothing.
By 9:30 PM, they still hadn't finished due to breaks/meals, etc. It was one mission after another of clearing all clockwork in random warehouse, yada yada and I could tell my daughter was getting tired and kind of fed up with it, but to her credit, she stuck it out.
Babbage ambush happened, but they were stuck. Only the two of them and repeated announcements to broadcast only got one hero responding to help out. I logged onto one of my charries, but four of us was an exercise in futility. We gave up and let him despawn, then logged off.
The next day, something came up at home and we had to be out of the house and my daughter was late to the meeting time by an hour, but she had an email from the TF leader that she had plans come up and had gone to dinner with her family. So... nothing got done on the TF, and my daughters charrie is still stuck in limbo. Thankfully, she's got lowbie alts she can play around on.
Day four, they meet at the set time. Still only the two of them. None of the others that had started showed back up. I'm unclear if they quit, or if they just never logged back on again. Both of them were now determined to finish and not waste all those hours. Good for them.
They ran through the remaining content of the TF and got to the CWK at close to 9 PM. Lo and behold, one of the former members of the TF has logged back on and rushes to help out. The three of them take CWK down and finish up.
It took three days of mind-numbing grind and four days of real time to finish the TF and sadly, my daughter seems burned out and has hardly played since then. If that's 'as intended', I'm disappointed. I'm highly unlikely to ever bother with TF's now as I have a family to deal with. I'm AFK frequently for dinner, phone calls, chores, doorbell, etc.
WHY can't new TF members be recruited if the ones you started with don't show up? This makes no sense to me. None. This horrible grind-fest going on for hours and hours is frustrating and discouraging to the extreme and the now added difficulty attributed to group attrition just makes it even more of a dis-incentive to keep going.
Legit TF runners should NOT be penalized for what other players do, ie non-logging/dropping. Let them recruit more members to help put the party number back at the 'needed' limit. Get rid of the unnecessary 'hunt all' missions until the TF is a reasonable length for all players, not just the hard-core. I would have joined the TF in a heart-beat to help out, but I couldn't.
I'm sorry, but farming via TF's for recipes by some members just isn't important enough/game impacting enough to make a change that screws over those of us that play for content over loot.
I seriously hope you reconsider the changes that just gave a huge slap in the face to PuG TF's that have to deal with team attrition outside their control.
You aren't being ignored; the Devs had the Community Rep explain the situation; they're done.
If you want a direct response from Posi, PM him. I'd advise politreness if you actually want a response. But he's just going to say, "LH was confused, he got informed, he gave you the info."
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
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You aren't being ignored; the Devs had the Community Rep explain the situation; they're done.
If you want a direct response from Posi, PM him. I'd advise politreness if you actually want a response. But he's just going to say, "LH was confused, he got informed, he gave you the info."
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and its the weekend, I wouldn't expect any further response till Monday or Tuesday.
They may be datamineing for whatever numbers they need to make adjustments. This isn't some burger joint where you can expect your order in 2 minutes after all. 
~MR
AE Arc: 305214 Blood Diamonds (Villainous)
Unleashed/Unchained/B.O.S.S.
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You aren't being ignored; the Devs had the Community Rep explain the situation; they're done.
If you want a direct response from Posi, PM him. I'd advise politreness if you actually want a response. But he's just going to say, "LH was confused, he got informed, he gave you the info."
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The point is the devs have been fairly active on the forums the last couple days. There's even 1 post from LH today, regardless of the fact that it's a weekend.
Also....I believe what most people here are saying is that a leaky bucket would hold water better than the "explanation".
All I want is a response. Is this the final say? Have we brought up enough good points they might be willing to rethink it?
I mean seriously....do we have to start mass farming TF's to turn this into an exploit to get anything done about it?
Ignoring an issue is simply rude.
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(Evilanna)[ QUOTE ]
Wow, so they alter the game to work as they intended, and everyone complains?...
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... The game is intended to be fun. Some parts are not. Obviously not working as intended.
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I wasn't even going to respond Evilanna's post, hoping it would get lost in the shuffle along with all the other off-topic cruft. Since that didn't happen... well, I'll keep it short.
Intent does not equal quality. It does not equal correctness, good design, or good business practice. At best it might correlate to a little bit of consistency and continuity. At worst, it keeps us all chained to a worthless "Vision."
The "dev intent uber alles" attitude is quite possibly the most insidious invalidator of criticism, feedback, and player-driven improvement, and I have little patience for it in any thread.
==========
I'm going to fish for a little consensus here. Am I wrong in proposing the following?
* The change is significant enough to have required player feedback before going to the live servers.
* The change received little to no player feedback due to being missed in the patch notes.
* The change should therefore be rolled back off the live servers, but remain on test, until sufficient feedback is gathered there, and changes made if necessary.
IMHO, you are wrong.
1) Regardless of how big a change is, exploit fixes are not snd should not be tested without an NDA. NDAs are fairly useless for testing exploit fixes, since honest folk who would abide by an NDA don't knowingly exploit. Hence, no warning.
2) The change is receiving plenty player feedback.
3) The change will not be rolled back so that the exploit can resume. That would be dumb.
If the change is rolled back, it will be because the fix breaks something else worse or because the fix mechanically doesn't work or because the fix plain doesn't solve any problems.
If you want it rolled back, start by proving one of those premises.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
Do you want a response about the reason for the change?
Given. You may not beleive it, but it's been given.
Do you want a response about whether the change is working in their opinion or whether a different change would be better?
Check back after a few weeks of datamining.
But you are right that if mass inf farming becomes an exploit, something will be done.
Let me be clear: although I am in favor of the change itself, I don't think it's perfect, and I don't think it's an elegant solution to the problem they want to solve. I am also not happy that the notes on the change were lost. But the Devs have nothing to gain by malice in this case. They just want a game that works.
People complain about every aspect of every game. In this case, the people who were complaining about the farming got listened to.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
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People complain about every aspect of every game. In this case, the people who were complaining about the farming got listened to.
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Wow, they fixed farming by opening the doors for even MORE farming! Great job!
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3) The change will not be rolled back so that the exploit can resume. That would be dumb.
If the change is rolled back, it will be because the fix breaks something else worse or because the fix mechanically doesn't work or because the fix plain doesn't solve any problems.
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What exploit, exactly, are you referring to? Soft-loading Task Forces so they can be solo'd? Let's see, I've heard people mention soloing or softloading...
1) Positron
2) Cap Au Diable
3) Lord Recluse
4) Statesman
1) Is this a bad thing? If someone wants to solo the 600 missions of positron is that so bad?
2) If the goal is to prevent Fast Cap Runs.... 22:47?
3) What exactly do you softload on this one? The Freedom Phalanx still shows up 8 strong against 1 player. I heard people soft-load the first one as a workaround for getting the scientist on an elevator. Sounds like an exploit thats good.
4) Does soft-loading help against Lord Recluse or the Patrons?
So what exactly does this fix accomplish? Encouraging people to team at the cost of Pick-Up teams DREADING one person dropping/leaving mid-task force? I think that's too steep of a price to accomplish so little.
IF they really want to fix farming, they'll make it so you can't reset missions.
I'm not saying that would be popular, mind you... 
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
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IF they really want to fix farming, they'll make it so you can't reset missions.
I'm not saying that would be popular, mind you...
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Yeah, right after they fix blinkies appearing in walls, mobs getting stuck in the walls, etc.
Aka the first of never.
Edit: oh and not to mention turing regular missions into a fiasco like SF missions. The group lead selected your mish and spawned it for 8 then the team quit? Congrats, you get to find 8 folks to help you clear it or you're stuck with it as it stands.
Again, not going to happen. Too much potential for abuse.
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Well, I check back into the thread this morning. Check Community Digest....Dev Digest. Still no further replies to this.
Now they're ignoring their customers. (but they have plenty of other posts!)
This is starting to become insulting. I have friends on WoW who have been begging me to come over. If I didn't have 27 months invested in this game and a supergroup that relies on me, I'd done be gone.
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Oh, this made me laugh.
Go over to the WoW forums and demand answers from their Devs over a change you don't like and see what answers you get. From those who play multiple MMORPGs, they consistently rank our Devs as the most communicative, so, good luck with WoW.
And most importantly, stop demanding answers. It's petulant. Sometimes no answer is the answer. And, most importantly, you're not allowed to do it on the forums here, otherwise, this tool for communication becomes overrun not by those who want a real dialogue and can take 'no' for an answer, but from all the screamers.
<ul type="square">5. No I Demand Answers threads
Threads that make threats or use other combative language will be removed without notice. If you ask a question on the board and it has not been addressed by a moderator, there is a reason for that (or there is not an answer currently available). In the event of legitimate emergencies, or other unprecedented scenarios, we will endeavor to provide comments, even if it is only to state that there is no officially available information. However, this is not always possible.[/list]
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I'm afraid that I'm going to have to agree with everything said here. I love this game and the devs, but... I don't like getting punished for what a minority of the game is doing.
My daughter joined a Synapse TF group when asked, and apparently it was a PuG. They started with five around 4 PM. By 9 PM, they hadn't even gotten halfway. I insisted on my daughter logging off as it was getting too late and she had been attached to the computer for 5 hours give or take without having even gotten her homework started.
The group disbanded with an agreement to meet up at 5 pm the next day to finish.
Sounds good. Except... Only two of the group even showed up. ...
I seriously hope you reconsider the changes that just gave a huge slap in the face to PuG TF's that have to deal with team attrition outside their control.
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If you read the thread before replying to it, you would have read how TFs were originally meant to be time consuming, multiple play session events that were meant not for PuGs, but for groups of players who knew each other in real life or formed a stable Super Group.
Positron's TF is the poster boy for that bad design theory. If there is to be such a creature as described above, it should only have been accessible through a SG's base, like Silver Mantis' Strike Force.
Positron and some of the Shard TFs are known for being way too long and tedious. Sorry your daughter got caught up in that. Knowing what TFs are and their time commitment, your daughter should never have gotten involved in one (at least, not Positron's). In the end, she became part of the problem because she didn't have the time commitment to finish it in one go (though she gets praise for coming back at the appointed times).
Over time, the Devs learned their lesson and created TFs that were shorter and more PuG friendly. They *should* (and we've been begging them) go back and re-do all the TFs into the new model. But, that was a time commitment Cryptic/NCSoft didn't want to make or couldn't with the resources allocated. Now that NCSoft is throwing development money at CoH, we hope this changes.
For now, your daughter should avoid Positron's TF and read up on the other TFs here before deciding to join one. Always ask the leader of the PuG how long they expect it to take (there *are* some pros who can do the Positron TF in under 3 hours because they've done it several times already) before committing.
[Edit: Oops, I confused Synapse TF with Positron TF... sorry. But it hardly changes my point, they both of the same old-style mode and Synapse's TF is too long, just like Positron's. -ZM]
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Er, Zombie, he's talking about the Synapse TF, not Positron.
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Her daughter did the Synapse TF. Still not a walk in the park, but not Positron.
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If you read the thread before replying to it, you would have read how TFs were originally meant to be time consuming, multiple play session events that were meant not for PuGs, but for groups of players who knew each other in real life or formed a stable Super Group.
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With all due respect, we *have* a stable supergroup; two of them. I belong to two stable villain groups as well.
Know what? We still won't have the time to commit to something like this.
Perhaps you come from another MMO, where time-consuming grinds are the meat and potatoes of the game. There's a reason people like us do not play those games. It's because we enjoy gaming but we can't commit to that kind of time. That's one BIG advantage that CoX has that other MMO's don't.
I don't know how many task forces you've done, but we've run an average of one a week for the past two and a half years. I can tell you that what was described was beyond insane for a level 16-20 task force. Synapse should take about four hours - allowing time to take breaks, chat a bit, sell off if needed, and generally proceed at a leisurely pace. That's an evening's gaming. Yes, it can be done faster, but believe it or not, not everyone goes into a task force with the idea of sprinting through it at top speed.
Very simply, such grinds are not fun, not practical and not feasible.
If anyone wishes to differ by saying 'oh, it's easy for all of you to meet at the same time each night', try having a supergroup with people who are in Australia, with people who work nights, work weekends, have young children/multiple jobs/etc. Try organizing just one event with six to eight people online over multiple days, and then get back with me as to how easy it is to do. Trust me, it's not, and frankly, *I* am not using my play time to do it.
I understand wanting to end exploiting. However, I don't see how this is doing anything but *helping* the farmers and *hurting* the people who haven't done anything at all to cause the problem.
~Elizabeth
Leave the saving of the world to the men? I don't think so! -Elastigirl
The SOLUS Foundation - http://www.solusfoundation.com
A Liberty-based bastion, seven years strong.
******* News Flash*********
Miracle+ recovery sells for 100 mill
Lotg+ rech sells for 100 mill
These are record prices. If you dont believe me go check the BM sales logs.
Thanks Dev's . Good job!!!!!!!!!!! I applaud you for killing the lifeblood of an already anemic BM. Way to go!!!
Less than a week with this change and its ALREADY happenning. ARGH! I had hoped to pick up a few for a piddly 60 mill and resell them later for 200 mill a pop. If you have funds on redside? Now is the time to scoop up pool C uniques and sit on them for a month. Don't delay or you will miss out. AS stated above they are already at 100 million as oppossed to 40-60.
[ QUOTE ]
******* News Flash*********
Miracle+ recovery sells for 100 mill
Lotg+ rech sells for 100 mill
These are record prices. If you dont believe me go check the BM sales logs.
Thanks Dev's . Good job!!!!!!!!!!! I applaud you for killing the lifeblood of an already anemic BM. Way to go!!!
Less than a week with this change and its ALREADY happenning. ARGH! I had hoped to pick up a few for a piddly 60 mill and resell them later for 200 mill a pop. If you have funds on redside? Now is the time to scoop up pool C uniques and sit on them for a month. Don't delay or you will miss out. AS stated above they are already at 100 million as oppossed to 40-60.
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And those prices have nothing to do with the inflation of double experience weekend where people were pulling in tens of millions of inf every few hours?
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Er, Zombie, he's talking about the Synapse TF, not Positron.
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Oops. Sorry about that.
Synapse isn't as bad as Positron, but, it's still the old model of TFs -- way too long. Nothing like the handful of missions that you get with Katie or Lady Grey TFs.
Speeding Through New DA Repeatables || Spreadsheet o' Enhancements || Zombie Skins: better skins for these forums || Guide to Guides
[ QUOTE ]
******* News Flash*********
Miracle+ recovery sells for 100 mill
Lotg+ rech sells for 100 mill
These are record prices. If you dont believe me go check the BM sales logs.
Thanks Dev's . Good job!!!!!!!!!!! I applaud you for killing the lifeblood of an already anemic BM. Way to go!!!
Less than a week with this change and its ALREADY happenning. ARGH! I had hoped to pick up a few for a piddly 60 mill and resell them later for 200 mill a pop. If you have funds on redside? Now is the time to scoop up pool C uniques and sit on them for a month. Don't delay or you will miss out. AS stated above they are already at 100 million as oppossed to 40-60.
[/ QUOTE ]
Proof that this change is comprised of epic failure.
Roll it back.
The inflation is going to be insane.
Not only is the supply going down, but now people can get their own farm map by starting a TF. Inf is going to be worth nothing.
A game is not supposed to be some kind of... place where people enjoy themselves!
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Her daughter did the Synapse TF. Still not a walk in the park, but not Positron.
[ QUOTE ]
If you read the thread before replying to it, you would have read how TFs were originally meant to be time consuming, multiple play session events that were meant not for PuGs, but for groups of players who knew each other in real life or formed a stable Super Group.
[/ QUOTE ]
With all due respect, we *have* a stable supergroup; two of them. I belong to two stable villain groups as well.
Know what? We still won't have the time to commit to something like this.
Perhaps you come from another MMO, where time-consuming grinds are the meat and potatoes of the game. There's a reason people like us do not play those games. It's because we enjoy gaming but we can't commit to that kind of time. That's one BIG advantage that CoX has that other MMO's don't.
I don't know how many task forces you've done,
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With all due respect, I have never done a SuperGroup-only TF. Maybe about 20 that were half supergroup members and the rest pick ups. That leaves, by my rough guesstimate, that I've done about 300 PuG TFs/SFs/Trials.
Less than 10 failed due to incompetence or drop outs. And all were completed in one sitting.
Yes, that meant 5-6 hours for some of them.
Of all people, I'm in the position to say, "Suck it up! Even the old, long TFs can be done in one sitting by PuGs." But I don't. I'm criticizing the old-style TFs and have lobbied for them to change. Even though I can complete them with PuGs in a relatively timely manner, they're still too long and boring and tedious.
So, I don't know why you're attacking me... we agree. You have to read past my first paragraph. I wasn't defending the rationale of the original TFs, I was explaining what it was and why they're like that. And because they're still like that (unfortunately), they are not PuG friendly. That's a fact. It should change. We agree.
Speeding Through New DA Repeatables || Spreadsheet o' Enhancements || Zombie Skins: better skins for these forums || Guide to Guides
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
******* News Flash*********
Miracle+ recovery sells for 100 mill
Lotg+ rech sells for 100 mill
These are record prices. If you dont believe me go check the BM sales logs.
Thanks Dev's . Good job!!!!!!!!!!! I applaud you for killing the lifeblood of an already anemic BM. Way to go!!!
Less than a week with this change and its ALREADY happenning. ARGH! I had hoped to pick up a few for a piddly 60 mill and resell them later for 200 mill a pop. If you have funds on redside? Now is the time to scoop up pool C uniques and sit on them for a month. Don't delay or you will miss out. AS stated above they are already at 100 million as oppossed to 40-60.
[/ QUOTE ]
Proof that this change is comprised of epic failure.
Roll it back.
[/ QUOTE ]
Can you please provide Screenshots of the BM's UI for those 2 enhs & their sell price?
Well, I check back into the thread this morning. Check Community Digest....Dev Digest. Still no further replies to this.
Now they're ignoring their customers. (but they have plenty of other posts!)
This is starting to become insulting. I have friends on WoW who have been begging me to come over. If I didn't have 27 months invested in this game and a supergroup that relies on me, I'd done be gone.