Ultimus' TankMage Mastermind -- List of AV's OWNED
By
Akuma_Mishima,
Posted on: 2007-12-24 23:19 in Masterminds
Ghost, that's another argument entirely. some of us ran the numbers for leadership a long while back and it was generally accepted it wasn't really worthwhile. So that's 2 powerpicks gone. I can't understand why anyone would even bother with stealth on bots/traps. another gone. that leaves travel, which anyone takes anyway, cancelling that out. Why are you so concerned with Steadfast on an MM? it's not a groundbreaking IO. 
As far as AV's go, we've been nailing them down with SO's.
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pure defense or pure resistence is always better than mixed defense and resistence
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that's always been an accepted formula, I agree Lasto. what Ult is saying though is that he gets the def from IO set bonuses that he would get from scorp shield. But he misses the point of MM's entirely with that philosophy. You dont need extraneous mitigation with this AT. Especially bots/traps! you're much better served going full throttle on recharge and damage. You can do it with Mu too. Not as much, but you can. But he's putting def/res bonuses as his main priorities for IO bonuses, which we all know makes baby jesus cry into his mohammed teddy bear. ok so maybe I made that last part up... >.>
So, Mu or Mace ?
I can't believe that Mace's Immob doesn't stop knockback; don't all other immobs?
all the points have already been listed Black Carnage. I've listed what I think about the KB issue already. you need to decide which route suits your own priorities now
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what Ult is saying though is that he gets the def from IO set bonuses that he would get from scorp shield. But he misses the point of MM's entirely with that
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but does he get's the same defense bonus from IO's slotted in the Mu patron pool powers as a mace shield??? if not...then he's not getting the same defense he would have from mace because his defense would be much more if he tooken mace.
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So, Mu or Mace ?
I can't believe that Mace's Immob doesn't stop knockback; don't all other immobs?
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gravity for doms and controllers don't. another control primary doesn't but I forgot which I think
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all the points have already been listed Black Carnage. I've listed what I think about the KB issue already. you need to decide which route suits your own priorities now
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Heres what ive seen you say
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scorpion shield has always been the better choice for bots/traps because you can stack it's +def with your FFG and your probots. The benefits of this alone outweighs the minor nuisance of KB that Mu's immobilize prevents. Besides, there's an easy way around that.
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And thats it.
I don't care about the shield, just the immob specifically to keep large groups of mobs in a burn patch.
Specifically "theres an easy way around that" could you explain?
here ya go
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just one note about your patron - the -KB effect of Mu's AoE immobilize is handy for keeping mobs in burn patches. However, the extra 21% defense you get from Mace mastery's shield stacks real nice with your probot and FFG defenses 
depends on how tanky you want to get. I just use a little trick of putting a 'nade on a centered boss and aiming my attack at him. the nade has -KB, so the other mobs taking burn patches around the guy you naded aren't getting knocked out of it and neither is he. It's not as good as Mu's AoE immobilize but I value scorpion shield more in the late game.
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if you dont care about the shield then it shouldn't even be a question for you. Go Mu. Personally I think you're obsessing over much about burn patches, but whatever floats your boat.
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if you dont care about the shield then it shouldn't even be a question for you. Go Mu. Personally I think you're obsessing over much about burn patches, but whatever floats your boat.
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Hm, i was under the impression that Bots burn patches were a very big portion of Bots/ damage output, and that getting a decent immob was pretty high on the priority list. Because of that i figured it would be better to get Mace, due to getting the immob at 41, not 44. But just how much does it matter that the mobs don't stay in the patches that long?
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if you dont care about the shield then it shouldn't even be a question for you. Go Mu. Personally I think you're obsessing over much about burn patches, but whatever floats your boat.
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Hm, i was under the impression that Bots burn patches were a very big portion of Bots/ damage output, and that getting a decent immob was pretty high on the priority list. Because of that i figured it would be better to get Mace, due to getting the immob at 41, not 44. But just how much does it matter that the mobs don't stay in the patches that long?
[/ QUOTE ]Bot Burn patches aren't that much more damage, and any immob will serve the purpoe for the burn patch, even ghost widow. What people take mu for is because bots cause knockback which is bad for things like poison trap, tar patch and similar Targetted AE powers.
Furthermore, bots might have their silly burnpatch but my thugs are just ripping things apart anyways. It's making me think of building a thugs/trap MM now to combine the sickest combos.
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what Ult is saying though is that he gets the def from IO set bonuses that he would get from scorp shield. But he misses the point of MM's entirely with that
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but does he get's the same defense bonus from IO's slotted in the Mu patron pool powers as a mace shield??? if not...then he's not getting the same defense he would have from mace because his defense would be much more if he tooken mace.
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Incorrect. Mace is typed defense. It will not stack with Range/Melee/AOE defense. Most IO defense bonuses are Range/Melee/AOE defense. Look at Blood Mandate, it gives 3.5 (3.75?) range defense. That will not stack with Scorpion shield. Look at the Immobilize set, it gives 3.75% melee defense. That will not stack with Scorpion shield.
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Bot Burn patches aren't that much more damage, ....
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Ummm... isn't that the one thing that bot MM's justify their damage over thugs? The massive burn patches?
Thugs have already been proven even with burn patches, to do more damage than bots 
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Thugs have already been proven even with burn patches, to do more damage than bots
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I've never seen any proof. I could also pull out my enemy resist spread sheet and compare that way too. Lethal is pretty heavily resisted.
Thugs do a massive amount of AE to and not just lethal. It was a post a few weeks back with a spreadsheet showing damage comparably.
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Thugs do a massive amount of AE to and not just lethal. It was a post a few weeks back with a spreadsheet showing damage comparably.
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Well in theory. I have both a Bot and a Thug post 32 and to be honest I tend to get more overall *consistent* damage from the Bots.
Having most of their damage coming from Assault Bot gives a number of advantages:
1) Can focus your best/rare IOs in one pet.
2) Can get setup faster (since you really only need 1 pet)
3) Even lvl pet means more damage, less misses and a better chance to survive a counter attack. Remember all that Burn damage will cause a lot of threat. Id rather a T3 pet taking the hits then a T1.
4) Fewer stupid AI bugs.
Add to that being all ranged and clumped together means you don't get spread out for buffs/heals.
I'm not saying thugs are bad, they are much stronger pre 32.
But after 32 Bots basically have it all.
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Thugs do a massive amount of AE to and not just lethal. It was a post a few weeks back with a spreadsheet showing damage comparably.
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I know what post your referring to and well that should not be looked at as gospel. It didn't include Burn patches and it didn't include resistance.
If I pull out my enemy resistance spreadsheet A LOT of enemies have 50% resistance to lethal.
If you are referring to that post, then you didn't read it, it did include burn patches, sorry Ultimus.
Silverspar and Icarium are wrong. They use opinions.
Ultimus is right. He uses well backed up numbers and methodology.
Bots do more damage, when counting in burn patch and resistances, on average.
AVs are NOT highly resistant to immobilze. They have mag 3-5 protection only. Just web'nade is fine. You don't need to go getting patron immobs to stack for holding AVs.
All resistance or All defense is NOT better than a combination of the two.
Resistance IS VERY useful for a mastermind, ESPECIALY when combined with bodyguard. This is because resistance is applied BEFORE Bodyguard.
Like Ultimus said, Scorpion shield does NOT stack with ranged/melee/AoE, which is the majority of all set bonus's.
So, who do ya'll think is right?
Icarium and Silverspar (whom I've never heard of), or Ultimus and Myself, both of whom are known for pushing characters to the very limits of what is supposed to be possible?
Please, to any noobs reading this, don't get derailed by people arguing with Ultimus. Everytime he, myself, or anyone else makes a thread like this to showcase our accomplishments, people stop in and spout blatantly untrue stuff in order to detract from the thread. Their hope is that it starts a flame war that either locks or deletes the thread. (thereby getting rid of it, or locking it so it stops getting bumped up and they don't have to see it again.)
You probably mean Jade_Dragon's Mastermind Damage Guide, but the thing about that is that it shows the sheer damage and none of the variables, such as Longbow resisting the heck out of everything the Thugs do except the Arsonist, whom promptly will fall on the floor dead as soon as a mob is engaged. It's true, under controlled testing Thug do out-damage Robots by about roughly 20 DPS, according to the Damage Guide and from my personal experience of playing a Thug Mastermind. However, Thug's survivability is based solely around the Enforcer's Leadership and small amount of resistance several of the Thugs have without counting IOs or Secondaries. Robots are typical Henchmen Resistance with Defense before factoring in anything else, since Protectors can Force Shield as well. Probably the biggest difference in the two is that the Protector Bot will Force Shield the owner, thus providing more defense for the owner stack. To sum all of this up, yes Thugs do more damage, we heard, we know, it's over and has beaten with sticks till it's turned an unhealthy purple color. Robots go home surprisingly well balanced while Thugs go home about as balanced as 30 year old and a Anorexic on a teeter-totter (Or maybe a Genin, since they're apparently made out of paper).
Oh, and congratulations Ultimus for arriving at a year ago when this was shocking news.
Some arrogant mouthbreathers in here. We know its an stroke for you to spend 12 hours soloing an AV, with almost perma phantom army (you have such skill!), but you guys talk yourselves up in about every forum.
Lots of people do this kind of stuff, and have for a long, long time (like back since beta), but don't see the need to make a fuss about it on the boards for their own personal strokefest or to be a showoff.
Move out of moms basement, get some sun maybe, it does wonders.
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Some arrogant mouthbreathers in here. We know its an stroke for you to spend 12 hours soloing an AV, with almost perma phantom army (you have such skill!), but you guys talk yourselves up in about every forum.
Lots of people do this kind of stuff, and have for a long, long time (like back since beta), but don't see the need to make a fuss about it on the boards for their own personal strokefest or to be a showoff.
Move out of moms basement, get some sun maybe, it does wonders.
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Wow, only four posts (at the time of this response) to come across as a complete and utter tool. Can someone confirm that this is a new forum record? Stunningly well played, my good troll. Well played indeed. 
I found it lacking and predictable.
Troll Score 1-10:
2
Pushing characters to their limits? Ultimus maybe considered doing that, if you ignore everyone else who has come before him for the past two years, and were doing the exact samethigns he is bragging about now, only without the aid of inventions to help them. And sorry you haven't heard of me, cause I sure have never heard of you Peace_on_Earth.
Post deleted by Ex Libris
All valid points Icarium. I particularly liked the +regen idea.
12.5% recharge is pretty nice, but its alot harder to find a spot to put a steadfast protection: +def on a bot/traps than it is to put a LotG +recharge. If you chose to 6 slot, you could still get 5% recharge out of a resistance shield (5 slot bonus with Impervious Skin + steadfast: +def), that is, if you really wanted to.
I don't see why you couldn't IO for recharge and also benefit from this slotting. Hell, with my build currently I have FFGen, Maneuvers, Vengeance, Grant Invis, and Combat Jumping I can throw LotG: +recharge into. That doesn't even get into Purple sets if you really want to get pricey. Point is, there is so much recharge in the way of set bonuses out there I don't think slotting this way will kill your recharge opportunities.
Not to mention, this whole thread is about AV killing, and for my money, I'll take all the layered mitigation I can get. Res, Def, Regen...its all good